The Next President is...

[Prosuper]

But on the other hand it shows how easily the FBI can be duped and that was probably the national security issue the "professionals" were worried about.

 

[waveshaper]

1 hour ago, Vertigo said:

It talks about the dossier being used by the FBI to get a FISA warrant against Carter Page in 2016 in an effort to take down Trump's campaign run. The reality is Carter Page was under a FISA warrant since 2014, well before Trump entered the race.

I still don't understand why the FBI didn't notify/warn (pronto/day one) the Republican Party Nominee for President of the USA when this Russian Spy wannabe started working on his campaign team? IMHO, giving Presidential candidates/serving Presidents a heads-up about stuff like this should be SOP, particularly if it involves someone that was under a FISA warrant since 2014.

[Vertigo]

59 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

The memo is another interesting case study in people looking at the same thing and walking away with very different impressions.  I see senior DOJ/FBI leadership scheming with a political campaign to manipulate the outcome of an election.  Other folks don't see it that way, which is fine.

 This memo will not change anyone's opinion here, but I'm glad it's in the public record and I favor release of the Dem counter-memo as well.  Let's get everything out there and embrace open government.  I tire of closed door sessions, allegations and anonymous sources.  

You see that because the memo omitted facts in order to give people like you that impression... For example the fact the dossier was first commissioned by the Republicans and that the FISA had been ongoing well before Trump was a candidate.

The fact that McCain and Gowdy are publicly dismissing this memo and still back Mueller as an unbiased investigator is pretty telling.

 

[tac airlifter]

10 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

You see that because the memo omitted facts in order to give people like you that impression... For example the fact the dossier was first commissioned by the Republicans and that the FISA had been ongoing well before Trump was a candidate.

The fact that McCain and Gowdy are publicly dismissing this memo and still back Mueller as an unbiased investigator is pretty telling.

 

Good thing your opinion is right.  

[Vertigo]

13 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Good thing your opinion is right.  

There's opinion and there's history. It's a fact Carter Page was under a FISA warrant surveil that started in 2014. It's a fact that Trump wasn't a candidate then. The memo  omits that and instead implies the FISA warrant was initiated in 2016 after Trump was a candidate... That's not an opinion.

It's also not an opinion that the Steele dossier was first commissioned by Republicans. 

 

The only opinion in my statement was that the memo was altered in order to persuade people... but if that's not the case, what was the reason for omitting facts that fundamentally impact the memo's accuracy?

 

 

[matmacwc]

9 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

There's opinion and there's history. It's a fact Carter Page was under a FISA warrant surveil that started in 2014. It's a fact that Trump wasn't a candidate then. The memo  omits that and instead implies the FISA warrant was initiated in 2016 after Trump was a candidate... That's not an opinion.

It's also not an opinion that the Steele dossier was first commissioned by Republicans. 

 

The only opinion in my statement was that the memo was altered in order to persuade people... but if that's not the case, what was the reason for omitting facts that fundamentally impact the memo's accuracy?

 

 

They're going to have to release the original for this ^ Democratic talking point to be crushed, shouldn't have touched it, grammar or not.  You want facts?  They used some phony Fusion GPS document to get a FISA warrant to spy on Trump and his people, that Judge must feel like an idiot.  It was PAR for the course in big O's government though; try to get the IRS to open a conservative non-profit, try (AS a ctiy/state) to follow immigration law, try to run guns to Mexico (Well, that was easy).  He weaponized the government against another political point of view,  the cover up and word twisting doesn't surprise me but its fairly obvious.  When the NYT or WAPO doesn't want a classified memo to come out, you know you have gold.

[tac airlifter]

13 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

There's opinion and there's history. It's a fact Carter Page was under a FISA warrant surveil that started in 2014. It's a fact that Trump wasn't a candidate then. The memo  omits that and instead implies the FISA warrant was initiated in 2016 after Trump was a candidate... That's not an opinion.

It's also not an opinion that the Steele dossier was first commissioned by Republicans. 

 

The only opinion in my statement was that the memo was altered in order to persuade people... but if that's not the case, what was the reason for omitting facts that fundamentally impact the memo's accuracy?

 

 

If you know those things as facts already, why do they need to be included in a document declassifying info to teach us new things?

Thats a rhetorical question as I’m not super interested in debating this topic.  As I said earlier, we see this differently which is fine.  

[nsplayr]

This is a good, wonky podcast episode that discusses the Nunes Memo. Just finished listening myself.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-special-edition-memo-released

Edited February 3, 2018 by nsplayr

[17D_guy]

2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

This is a good, wonky podcast episode that discusses the Nunes Memo. Just finished listening myself.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-special-edition-memo-released

lawfare's a good one.  Rather enjoy the technical analysis of jurisprudence versus everyone's "I saw an episode of Law & Order last night" breakdowns.

[drewpey]

8 hours ago, Vertigo said:

The reality is Carter Page was under a FISA warrant since 2014, well before Trump entered the race.

Just to clarify, I think he was being watched or under investigation as far back as 2014 for Russia-related concerns.  Everything I've read says the FISA didn't start until 2016, and was followed up by three renewals, one occurring under trump's own administration. 

The lede being buried here is that the FBI followed the legal process to convince a FISA judge  (edit:4 seperate FISA judges) that Page was working as a foreign agent.  The initial application the FBI convinces the judge they will likely find evidence, but for renewals they have to prove they corroborated the initial application, and that further evidence will be attained...THREE times.

Rumor is that the funding was in the initial application.  Nunes just went on Fox News and admitted he didn't read the FISA applications...only Gowdy did.  Also worth mentioning is Gowdy is headed for the exit instead of standing his ground...he came out today and downplayed the memo, and refused to go on the record saying he had confidence in the memo.  In fact, only 4/13 republicans on the committee that produced the memo would say they had confidence in it.  Best of luck republicans, on to the next meme while we clean up this mess with the truth.

Edited February 3, 2018 by drewpey

[Vertigo]

5 hours ago, matmacwc said:

They're going to have to release the original for this ^ Democratic talking point to be crushed, shouldn't have touched it, grammar or not.  You want facts?  They used some phony Fusion GPS document to get a FISA warrant to spy on Trump and his people, that Judge must feel like an idiot.  It was PAR for the course in big O's government though; try to get the IRS to open a conservative non-profit, try (AS a ctiy/state) to follow immigration law, try to run guns to Mexico (Well, that was easy).  He weaponized the government against another political point of view,  the cover up and word twisting doesn't surprise me but its fairly obvious.  When the NYT or WAPO doesn't want a classified memo to come out, you know you have gold.

A phony GPS Fusion document? You mean the one the memo states has been minimally corroborated? Weird that a FAKE document, as you say, has had some things in it corroborated.

The thing is the FISA warrant was given to spy on Carter Page WELL before he was in Trump's camp.

 

You can dream up whatever fantasy you want, the rest of us are living in the real world.

[BFM this]

6 hours ago, Vertigo said:

You mean the one the memo states has been minimally corroborated? Weird that a FAKE document, as you say, has had some things in it corroborated. 

Minimally corroborated?  Yes, the subject of the dossier, DJT, is a real person.  Aside from that, what has been corroborated?  It’s been well established that the dossier itself was spun from whole cloth.  It’s fiction, connecting irrelevant dots to imply nefarious intent that did not exist.  It does not illustrate real illegal activities, such as directing subordinates to remove classification headers from documents  and transmit those documents across lower clearance channels, nothing like that.

Edited February 3, 2018 by BFM this
memo, dossier, something

[BFM this]

On the flip side, the Nunes memo, for all of the hype leading up to the release, is about as big a nothing-burger as the dossier.  Like the dossier, it IMPLIES plenty, while proving little.  Like the dossier, it's implications are a cause for concern (the impartiality of law enforcement within the executive branch), but there's no actual proof offered, and no specific illegal acts identified.  It's a collection of political sound bites, stamped with a classification header, only to have that header scratched out with much pomp and circumstance.  Political theater.

Edited February 3, 2018 by BFM this

[Vertigo]

7 hours ago, BFM this said:

Minimally corroborated?  Yes, the subject of the dossier, DJT, is a real person.  Aside from that, what has been corroborated?  It’s been well established that the dossier itself was spun from whole cloth.  It’s fiction, connecting irrelevant dots to imply nefarious intent that did not exist.  It does not illustrate real illegal activities, such as directing subordinates to remove classification headers from documents  and transmit those documents across lower clearance channels, nothing like that.

If it's fiction, then it's really weird that Carter Page's testimony corroborated certain details in the dossier. I guess Steele is really good at making stuff up that actually occurred.

[BFM this]

5 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

If it's fiction, then it's really weird that Carter Page's testimony corroborated certain details in the dossier. I guess Steele is really good at making stuff up that actually occurred.

Yep.

Irrelevant dots.  Carter Page, maybe.  Collusion by Trump, not so much.

[SFG]

8 hours ago, BFM this said:

On the flip side, the Nunes memo, for all of the hype leading up to the release, is about as big a nothing-burger as the dossier.  Like the dossier, it IMPLIES plenty, while proving little.  Like the dossier, it's implications are a cause for concern (the impartiality of law enforcement within the executive branch), but there's no actual proof offered, and no specific illegal acts identified.  It's a collection of political sound bites, stamped with a classification header, only to have that header scratched out with much pomp and circumstance.  Political theater.

Actually, the memo shows that the "nothing-burger" dossier was used as justification to spy on American citizens... that's no nothing-burger... that's a Whopper.

[drewpey]

2 hours ago, Klepto said:

Actually, the memo shows that the "nothing-burger" dossier was used as justification to spy on American citizens... that's no nothing-burger... that's a Whopper.

It's a bit premature to say the dossier was a nothing-burger.  It is a composition of raw intel and discussions that had occurred, and not a list of factual statements.  It's got some things right, some things wrong, but there is still much of it few will know the accuracy of until the investigation completes.  The dossier was likely just another data point for the FBI investigation.  The thing the dossier may have had that the FBI intel didn't was specifically identifying Page.  With 702 warrants they likely knew something was going on, but if the Russians didn't specifically identify Page or contact him where they could unmask...the FBI wouldn't be able to identify Page.  The dossier would give them that piece for their puzzle.  Just a long-shot theory, but its a lot more believable than a bunch of career LEOs suddenly deciding to betray their oaths to support and defend the constitution and conduct some political coup against republicans by spying on a former trump official repeatedly while at the same time having a public investigation going on-and-off-and-on against the primary Democratic nominee...but don't let facts and reason get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

The beauty about this whole thing is if the FBI was careless and went about this process improperly...Page is in the clear as he has a strong case to have any/all evidence gathered via this process thrown out of court.  Heck he could probably even get the ACLU to pay his legal fees.

[tac airlifter]

For those of you who enjoy political commentary from cats.  

[Azimuth]

On 2/2/2018 at 9:00 PM, 17D_guy said:

lawfare's a good one.  Rather enjoy the technical analysis of jurisprudence versus everyone's "I saw an episode of Law & Order last night" breakdowns.

Stay Tuned with Preet is another good one too.

[matmacwc]

Pussy's gotta point

[Vertigo]

22 hours ago, Klepto said:

Actually, the memo shows that the "nothing-burger" dossier was used as justification to spy on American citizens... that's no nothing-burger... that's a Whopper.

Used as justification to -extend- an already in place FISA warrant. Used because it corroborated other intel they had. 

I guess the FBI should ignore additional evidence that appears to corroborate intel they had from now on? 

It's grotesquely funny how some people bend over backwards for the guy (Trump). There's mountains of evidence that multiple members of his campaign and inner council were in bed with the Russians. His son meeting with the Russians. A made up story about adoptions, when what was being discussed was quid pro quo (promise to drop sanctions and we'll give you a ton of dirt on Clinton). 

Have you asked yourself WHY the President has failed to follow up on sanctioning Russia? That law was passed by a near unanimous vote in the House and Senate, yet the white house has decided they'll just ignore that. Why is that? 

[HeloDude]

Vertigo--since when are you in favor of sanctions? 

[matmacwc]

30 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

That law was passed by a near unanimous vote in the House and Senate, yet the white house has decided they'll just ignore that. Why is that? 

Well I didn't agree with that when big O did it as well, albeit for different programs.  I dunno, maybe it has something to do with armed jets flying next to each other over a certain middle east country, the stories I've heard.....

[drewpey]

How many presidents will we have to endure coming into office and wanting to build a bridge with Russia?  It's time to treat Russia as the aggressor it is.  Enact the sanctions, let them continue to economically wither.  It's infuriating a country with a GDP half that of California is left unchecked.

R's love Putin now, but wait until the 2018 elections.  If you were Putin and you wanted to create the maximum amount of chaos within the US...how would you tinker with the 2018 elections?

 

[matmacwc]

13 minutes ago, drewpey said:

How many presidents will we have to endure coming into office and wanting to build a bridge with Russia?  It's time to treat Russia as the aggressor it is.  Enact the sanctions, let them continue to economically wither.  It's infuriating a country with a GDP half that of California is left unchecked.

R's love Putin now, but wait until the 2018 elections.  If you were Putin and you wanted to create the maximum amount of chaos within the US...how would you tinker with the 2018 elections?

 

I'd just create chaos and distrust, make them too busy squabbling with each other than watching the "real" bad people in the world.