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All political stuff aside, if you don’t like flyovers then you’re a commie pinko fuck and I don’t like you.

As many of y'all know, I'm involved in the airshow industry.  This photo is the hangar of the Texas Flying Legends, which has a great collection of flying aircraft:  Mustang, Spitfire, Warhawk, Mitche

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The general public has no idea how military aviation operates. They don’t understand the training crew gains by hitting a set TOT, they don’t recognize the work that goes into route study and all the coordination it entails. All they see, is the awesome jets flying over at the right time of the Anthem. Then make silly comments like “hard earned tax dollars at work”. Yeah Joe that’s exactly what we’re all paying for...letting aircrew execute their skill set #FlyEaglesFly
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On 10/20/2020 at 2:45 PM, HuggyU2 said:

The article contains an interesting line:

"[the idea that there is a link] between a football game and patriotism of the country does seem a bit disjointed".

It's called American Football. How much more concrete of a link could you ask for?

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On 10/21/2020 at 11:28 AM, jrizzell said:


The general public has no idea how military aviation operates. They don’t understand the training crew gains by hitting a set TOT, they don’t recognize the work that goes into route study and all the coordination it entails. All they see, is the awesome jets flying over at the right time of the Anthem. Then make silly comments like “hard earned tax dollars at work”. Yeah Joe that’s exactly what we’re all paying for...letting aircrew execute their skill set #FlyEaglesFly

This is legit the question I was going to ask.  Is it good training...seems so from your statement.

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I have no idea if a B-52, F-22, or KC-135 crew would find it good training.  

But in doing flyovers with the T-38 (single-ship or formation), yes... it was excellent training.  And if in formation, we often bring along someone that has never done a flyover before to get them to see another aspect of flying and flight planning.  

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This is legit the question I was going to ask.  Is it good training...seems so from your statement.


It's decent training. What makes it challenging is that the TOT can shift, especially if you're trying to cross show center right at the end of the national anthem with a live performer that may go faster/slower than planned or rehearsed...

Flyovers typically come out of the unit's flying hour program/local training fence, and are supposed to be "non-interference" with the unit's training objectives. So there's no additional cost to the taxpayer for the flyover, and it's usually good publicity for the military.

A lot of flyover requests do go unfilled, as flying units are "paying" for them with a training sortie, or may have other operational commitments.
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On 10/22/2020 at 10:32 AM, 17D_guy said:

This is legit the question I was going to ask.  Is it good training...seems so from your statement.

No, it's not. It has very little transferable skill to combat effectiveness. It doesn't mean we shouldn't continue doing them though.

We live in the greatest country in the world where you can have 50,000-100,000+ screaming fans cheering for 'merica!  It's good publicity, it's something different for the pilots to do and is usually a morale booster for the guys involved. I've never walked away from a fly by thinking, man those were some good lessons learned.

Are demo's good training? How about the thunderbirds or the AF band (if that's still a thing).  There are plenty of advantages to projecting airpower to the masses, training doesn't need to be a requirement.

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On 10/22/2020 at 1:17 PM, HuggyU2 said:

I have no idea if a B-52, F-22, or KC-135 crew would find it good training.  

Hitting a TOT is good training for a Buff crew, especially since our turn radius takes us into the next zip code. 

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On 10/25/2020 at 12:17 AM, Magnum said:

No, it's not. It has very little transferable skill to combat effectiveness. It doesn't mean we shouldn't continue doing them though.

We live in the greatest country in the world where you can have 50,000-100,000+ screaming fans cheering for 'merica!  It's good publicity, it's something different for the pilots to do and is usually a morale booster for the guys involved. I've never walked away from a fly by thinking, man those were some good lessons learned.

Are demo's good training? How about the thunderbirds or the AF band (if that's still a thing).  There are plenty of advantages to projecting airpower to the masses, training doesn't need to be a requirement.

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

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Joyride??? Are you freaking kidding me?  Plan a 4 ship TOT Involving airspace issues and ground coordination. That's a real world requirement. Park in airspace that deconflicts with a variety of threats and restrictions. Been there, done that. Work comm issues with a ground party to hit a TOT and solve weather, threat, and last minute changes to accurately arrive when and where you want to be. Easier said than done but part of the job description.  No doubt TOTs have been missed and formation positions have been atrocious but the answer is more training not less. If you can't master the basics, the complex mission tasks aren't going to be any easier. 

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1 hour ago, Mark1 said:

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

As a tax payer I would be way more concerned with plenty of the other shit we waste money on before I got to flyovers.  I’ve never done a flyover,  but I’m willing to bet a paycheck I would learn 10x more from planning and executing one than I learn from the 69 million mandatory down days we take to talk about our feelings. 
 

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Joyride??? Are you freaking kidding me?  Plan a 4 ship TOT Involving airspace issues and ground coordination. That's a real world requirement. Park in airspace that deconflicts with a variety of threats and restrictions. Been there, done that. Work comm issues with a ground party to hit a TOT and solve weather, threat, and last minute changes to accurately arrive when and where you want to be. Easier said than done but part of the job description.  No doubt TOTs have been missed and formation positions have been atrocious but the answer is more training not less. If you can't master the basics, the complex mission tasks aren't going to be any easier. 

I’m going to venture that Joyride has never participated or planned an event like this. For many airframes, TOT control is critical to “combat effectiveness”.
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2 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

Joyride??? Are you freaking kidding me?  Plan a 4 ship TOT Involving airspace issues and ground coordination. That's a real world requirement. Park in airspace that deconflicts with a variety of threats and restrictions. Been there, done that. Work comm issues with a ground party to hit a TOT and solve weather, threat, and last minute changes to accurately arrive when and where you want to be. Easier said than done but part of the job description.  No doubt TOTs have been missed and formation positions have been atrocious but the answer is more training not less. If you can't master the basics, the complex mission tasks aren't going to be any easier. 

 

1 hour ago, jrizzell said:


I’m going to venture that Joyride has never participated or planned an event like this. For many airframes, TOT control is critical to “combat effectiveness”.

 

1 hour ago, viper154 said:

As a tax payer I would be way more concerned with plenty of the other shit we waste money on before I got to flyovers.  I’ve never done a flyover,  but I’m willing to bet a paycheck I would learn 10x more from planning and executing one than I learn from the 69 million mandatory down days we take to talk about our feelings. 
 

I responded to someone who said flyovers were of no training value and insinuated that they only favor doing them because they're a morale boost and "America, Fuck Yeah!".

I noted that IF that were true, they shouldn't be happening.

I also noted that if this person wasn't learning from a flyover, they were doing it wrong [because there's plenty to learn from a flyover].

Further, I suggested that it appeared a good portion of people doing the flyovers actually needed the training [that you get from a flyover].

Which side of the arguement do you think I'm on?  You can unbunch your panties now.

The point was that if the person I was responding to was in the jet for no purpose (i.e. not training), then they're "joyriding" and defrauding the U.S. taxpayer.

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I responded to someone who said flyovers were of no training value and insinuated that they only favor doing them because they're a morale boost and "America, Yeah!".
I noted that IF that were true, they shouldn't be happening.
I also noted that if this person wasn't learning from a flyover, they were doing it wrong [because there's plenty to learn from a flyover].
Further, I suggested that it appeared a good portion of people doing the flyovers actually needed the training [that you get from a flyover].
Which side of the arguement do you think I'm on?  You can unbunch your panties now.
The point was that if the person I was responding to was in the jet for no purpose (i.e. not training), then they're "joyriding" and defrauding the U.S. taxpayer.

Point of order...I never mentioned your comments. I was referring only to Joyrides silly statement; my panties are unbunched.
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On 10/26/2020 at 6:30 PM, Mark1 said:

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

Fair one.  I got pretty good training on the ones I did.  Time on target, adjusting to the second, queep altitude restrictions that i wasn't used to, and in one case - unfamiliar...very unfamiliar landing conditions.  Fair point though.  I dunno if flybys are worth it or not.  I thought about that when I was flying them.

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On 10/26/2020 at 4:30 PM, Mark1 said:

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

Thank you for your expert opinion Mr John Q. If you have a concern with how the $0.0003 you contributed to a 4-ship fly by through your taxes (assuming you pay taxes) is spent tell your congressman.  Thank you for your lecture on how we should train.  I'll be sure to raise your concerns with my pilots at the next possible opportunity.

Just FYI, we in the military all pay taxes too.

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8 hours ago, Magnum said:

Thank you for your expert opinion Mr John Q. If you have a concern with how the $0.0003 you contributed to a 4-ship fly by through your taxes (assuming you pay taxes) is spent tell your congressman.  Thank you for your lecture on how we should train.  I'll be sure to raise your concerns with my pilots at the next possible opportunity.

Just FYI, we in the military all pay taxes too.

I don't have concern (if you read my posts, you'll see this).  And since we're discussing flyovers and, from your perspective, there's no training involved in flyovers, I don't see how I could be lecturing on how you train. But thanks for the education on your financial circumstances.  Must be senile in my 'old' age and have forgotten about that part from when I wasn't John Q. Public.

Everybody here is pissed when they see tax dollars being wasted on Obamaphones and pork-barrel subsidies.  But when it's them wasting tax dollars for personal benefit and they're called on it, they're just as self-righteous and indignant as the guy who gets told 5 Obamaphones is enough.  It's no wonder we're approaching $30 trillion in debt.

And for the slow learners:

No, I'm not saying flyovers are a waste, and I don't want my $0.0003 back.  Just that it's a pretty piss-poor attitude for somebody who does believe they're a waste, to also say, "Fuck it, who cares.  They're fun and, let's be honest, it's all about me".  Especially somebody who is, ostensibly, 'serving' the country.

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4 hours ago, Mark1 said:

I don't have concern (if you read my posts, you'll see this).  And since we're discussing flyovers and, from your perspective, there's no training involved in flyovers, I don't see how I could be lecturing on how you train. But thanks for the education on your financial circumstances.  Must be senile in my 'old' age and have forgotten about that part from when I wasn't John Q. Public.

Everybody here is pissed when they see tax dollars being wasted on Obamaphones and pork-barrel subsidies.  But when it's them wasting tax dollars for personal benefit and they're called on it, they're just as self-righteous and indignant as the guy who gets told 5 Obamaphones is enough.  It's no wonder we're approaching $30 trillion in debt.

And for the slow learners:

No, I'm not saying flyovers are a waste, and I don't want my $0.0003 back.  Just that it's a pretty piss-poor attitude for somebody who does believe they're a waste, to also say, " it, who cares.  They're fun and, let's be honest, it's all about me".  Especially somebody who is, ostensibly, 'serving' the country.

Well let's see. You said:

"Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take."

And:

"And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong."

Perhaps a misinterpretation on my part but that sure sounds like a lecture on how to train.

My point about the taxes was that your input on how tax dollars are spent happens at the ballot box. Just because you pay taxes doesn't give you a position to dictate what the military does with that money.

I never said it was a waste of money, in fact the opposite. I said you don't get valuable training transferable to combat. There are plenty of tax payers that want to see their military in action. It's valuable for the American public to see their force in action. Other than airshows, fly overs are an opportunity to get in front of the public and I think that's worthwhile.  By the way, the vast majority of these fly overs are not sought out by the pilot. They are either directed or published on an Air Force PA approved list.

You're pretty good at making shit up and putting it in quotes as if I said it. Your lack of basic reading and comprehension skills are the root cause for all the inaccuracies in your last paragraph.

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On 10/26/2020 at 8:11 PM, Mark1 said:

The point was that if the person I was responding to was in the jet for no purpose (i.e. not training), then they're "joyriding" and defrauding the U.S. taxpayer.

Can't believe I overlooked this gem.  Here are a list of sorties that must also be defrauding the govt since the pilot gets no training on them:

- Depot deliveries / returns

- TDY cross country

- AOS movements

- Every demo (TBirds, Raptor, Viper, Hog)

- Airshow static displays

- FCF

- Every combat sortie

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