National Air Cargo 747 Crash at Bagram

[StoleIt]

Damn. Too much of this lately.

To the crew.

[Infamous]

Grapevine speculation on over rotation, I would look hard at the form F , the TCN's they have loading are not known for following standards. Maybe a load shift to aft CG.

TCN's loading cargo...

Godspeed

Edit:

Wow. Just realized I took a tour of this jet about a month or so ago when it came through... A former squadron commander who had retired a few years back but was now flying for National called over and said we could come by and he'd show us the jet. I sure hope he wasn't involved... Took these on board..

It was a really pretty jet... Crazy

Edited May 1, 2013 by Infamous

[Tank]

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/terrifying-plane-crash-purportedly-caught-on-camera/2qi6qzpyl?src=v5%253aendslate%253atitleBar%255elink%253a&from=tmx_en-us_news_World

[Fuzz]

Rolled past the wreckage today on a stop there, not much left but the tail area, they impacted about 50 yards off the end of the runway. Definetely a somber scene to see. RIP gentlemen.

[Saluki]

RIP to the crew. Very tough to watch the video.

[17D_guy]

Stay safe guys

[Guest CannonCrashPad]

Cheers to our loadsmashers who go the extra mile, and prevent our families from seeing videos like this (assuming it was cargo related, as I suspect it was). You dudes don't get enough credit for what you do.

[Kelvin]

One of the hardest things I've ever had to watch. We were getting ready to taxi out and watched the whole thing. We were sitting there trying to talk them through it in our own cockpit the whole time. Didn't look like they ever gave up, but they had to know, like we did. We just shut engines down right there and watched the firefighters battle the blaze for the next 45 minutes...

[Kaman]

http://www.youcaring.com/memorial-fundraiser/rinku-summan-memorial-fund/56643

Hi guys,

I didn't know Rinku personally, but he was a good friend of a fellow pilot where I was previously employed.

[chem_teacher_flies85]

Thoughts and Prayers to the families, God bless

[TacAirCoug]

Depending on the outcome of the investigation, this may or may not have any relevance, but here is a blog post by a former charter loadmaster. It is, if nothing else, an interesting read.

The High Risk Job of a Military Charter Loadmaster

[DUNBAR]

Wow, thanks for posting that blog. Very interesting read. It's curious how he talks about the job being "financially taxing" -- you'd like to think these guys are making some decent coin but I guess not.

What a tragedy. RIP.

[Prozac]

Depending on the outcome of the investigation, this may or may not have any relevance, but here is a blog post by a former charter loadmaster. It is, if nothing else, an interesting read.

The High Risk Job of a Military Charter Loadmaster

Thanks for posting. Regardless of the cause of this accident and despite some recent advances, rest rules in the 121 world still have a long way to go. Particularly when it comes to moving cargo.

[Dupe]

I ran base ops for a while at OAKN. NAC was constantly the problem child. They'd show up hours early and turn the ramp into an impossible Tetris jet puzzle. Maybe they'd run hours behind on their load and force the next 747 in line to hold for a few hours unplanned. At times, they'd leave company-owned ground equipment strewn about the ramp causing further issues. Needless to say, relations were often strained between airfield management and NAC. I hope some frantic airfield management team trying to hustle NAC along wasn't a factor...

...Godspeed. This aviation thing is dangerous. I've learned that a few times in my career now.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Dupe

[Herculean]

This goes against some of the assumptions people have been having:

National Air Cargo issues statement regarding Boeing 747 crash in Afghanistan

ORLANDO, Fla. - National Air Cargo will not speculate as to the cause of the accident involving National Flight NCR102. With our full cooperation, an investigation by appropriate authorities is under way, and we encourage everyone to join us in respecting that process and allowing it to take its appropriate course.

Here are some facts regarding the aircraft and its movements prior to the accident:

National Flight NCR102 was en route to Dubai from Camp Bastian and had stopped to refuel at Bagram Air Base.

The cargo contained within the aircraft was properly loaded and secured, and had passed all necessary inspections prior to departing Camp Bastian.

The aircraft landed safely and uneventfully in Bagram.

No additional cargo or personnel was added during the stop in Bagram, and the aircraft's cargo was again inspected prior to departure.

[Toro]

Without getting too much into speculation, can somebody explain load shift to the ignorant pointy nose guy and how it could cause something so drastic and unrecoverable?

[HU&W]

Without getting too much into speculation, can somebody explain load shift to the ignorant pointy nose guy and how it could cause something so drastic and unrecoverable?

Should work the same aerodynamically in a pointy, but you guys have fixed stations for weight. Move CG aft of the center of lift and horizontal stabilizers/elevators no longer have sufficient authority to maintain stable flight. Often CG is calculated within inches-feet so pushing back a part of the load a few feet can be catastrophic. Let's say you have a single large item in the back that comes loose. Aircraft pitches up during rotation and that item slides back. At worst, the result could be continued overrotation followed by an unrecoverable stall.

Edited May 2, 2013 by HU&W

[Blue]

This goes against some of the assumptions people have been having:

National Air Cargo issues statement regarding Boeing 747 crash in Afghanistan

ORLANDO, Fla. - National Air Cargo will not speculate as to the cause of the accident involving National Flight NCR102. With our full cooperation, an investigation by appropriate authorities is under way, and we encourage everyone to join us in respecting that process and allowing it to take its appropriate course.

Here are some facts regarding the aircraft and its movements prior to the accident:

National Flight NCR102 was en route to Dubai from Camp Bastian and had stopped to refuel at Bagram Air Base.

The cargo contained within the aircraft was properly loaded and secured, and had passed all necessary inspections prior to departing Camp Bastian.

The aircraft landed safely and uneventfully in Bagram.

No additional cargo or personnel was added during the stop in Bagram, and the aircraft's cargo was again inspected prior to departure.

I'm guessing they're referring to Camp Bastion.

So much for attention to detail, National Air Cargo.

[Prosuper]

This goes against some of the assumptions people have been having:

National Air Cargo issues statement regarding Boeing 747 crash in Afghanistan

ORLANDO, Fla. - National Air Cargo will not speculate as to the cause of the accident involving National Flight NCR102. With our full cooperation, an investigation by appropriate authorities is under way, and we encourage everyone to join us in respecting that process and allowing it to take its appropriate course.

Here are some facts regarding the aircraft and its movements prior to the accident:

National Flight NCR102 was en route to Dubai from Camp Bastian and had stopped to refuel at Bagram Air Base.

The cargo contained within the aircraft was properly loaded and secured, and had passed all necessary inspections prior to departing Camp Bastian.

The aircraft landed safely and uneventfully in Bagram.

No additional cargo or personnel was added during the stop in Bagram, and the aircraft's cargo was again inspected prior to departure.

It checks if they came from Bastion, POL support at most bases is usually less than 80K 2 trucks than you have to wait for a hour due to the trucks have to refill, easier to get a large upload at Bagram. It also matters if you get there and a C-5 or C-17 is taking a big upload which leaves nothing for you and fighting crew rest issues.

[Lord Ratner]

Without getting too much into speculation, can somebody explain load shift to the ignorant pointy nose guy and how it could cause something so drastic and unrecoverable?

Should work the same aerodynamically in a pointy, but you guys have fixed stations for weight. Move CG aft of the center of lift and horizontal stabilizers/elevators no longer have sufficient authority to maintain stable flight. Often CG is calculated within inches-feet so pushing back a part of the load a few feet can be catastrophic. Let's say you have a single large item in the back that comes loose. Aircraft pitches up during rotation and that item slides back. At worst, the result could be continued overrotation followed by an unrecoverable stall.

To pile on--

So if the CG shifts to behind the center of lift, the horizontal stab (made of a movable stabilizer and yoke-controlled elevator) now has to work in the opposite direction (pushing the tail up, now, instead of down) to keep the plane under control. Possible, but only for small loads (sts)

If the load shift happens rapidly on a large plane like that, the stabilizer can't move fast enough to start pushing the tail up (normally it is always pushing down). So you have the CG move behind the center of lift, causing the plane to start pitching up, and you have a horizontal stab still pushing the tail down while it re-trims (and the stabilizer vastly overpowers any inputs the elevator may put in). The result is about what you see in the video.

That's bare-bones explanation. I don't know if the 74 stab is capable of generating lift in the opposite direction (up, in this case), but the result would be the same. I've heard tales of a KC-135 that allowed CG to get to 44ish, which is right about where the center of lift is. Apparently the plane started porpoising, which is how they noticed it.

[Hacker]

This goes against some of the assumptions people have been having:

I don't think it does. Just because loads checked good at previous checks does not mean something did not break loose...

[Vertigo]

It checks if they came from Bastion, POL support at most bases is usually less than 80K 2 trucks than you have to wait for a hour due to the trucks have to refill, easier to get a large upload at Bagram. It also matters if you get there and a C-5 or C-17 is taking a big upload which leaves nothing for you and fighting crew rest issues.

Even if Bagram is 360 miles in the opposite direction of where you are headed? Kandahar would be a lot shorter hop for fuel and it's a lateral move, not in the wrong direction.

[BolterKing]

Without getting too much into speculation, can somebody explain load shift to the ignorant pointy nose guy and how it could cause something so drastic and unrecoverable?

Imagine holding a 5 # weight out straight. Now put that same weight on the end of a 10' stick, gets harder to hold up right? Leverage and all that?

Now imagine a 40K # MRAP breaking loose and sliding to the rear of the airplane (maybe all the way back). Make sense now?

Simple math for CG, weight x position aft of datum = moment arm. Take a 40K # MRAP, if it slides back even 10 feet.... 40000 x 10 = 400,000 ft-lb moment arm shift aft.

[Hueypilot]

Even if Bagram is 360 miles in the opposite direction of where you are headed? Kandahar would be a lot shorter hop for fuel and it's a lateral move, not in the wrong direction.

May have something to do with ramp MOG. I was flight safety at Kandahar last year and we had limited ramp space for "super heavies".

[Prosuper]

May have something to do with ramp MOG. I was flight safety at Kandahar last year and we had limited ramp space for "super heavies".

Most bases besides Bagram have MOG issues especially when you super heavies on the ramp, anytime you have a A330, AN-124's, C-5's and 747's it fills the ramp quick . At OAMS we could only have one on the ramp one time when I was there last year or we parked you outside the wire on the old runway. Plus POL issues you usually only had two R-11 drivers on duty which turned a transoceanic trip fuel load into a 6 hour affair and these NAC guys knew this so they went to Bagram for a large top off. We always passed on to TACC our POL limitations and of course I had better luck trying to get a pig to sing.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Prosuper