Remains of 274 US troops dumped in landfill

[Guest Grind]

Probably a dissenting opinion, but here are my thoughts. Surivors/dependents fill out a CJMAB (Central Joint Mortuary Affairs Board) Form 1, "Disposition of Remains Election Statement Initial Notification of Partial Remains." Section 2 of this form asks the next of kin to decide between the following: Option 1: In the event that further remains are identified, I would like to be notified and given the choice of accepting subsequent portions for disposition. Option 2: In the event that further remains are identified, I do not want to be notified. I authorize the Army, Marine Corps, Air Force or Coast Guard to make appropriate disposition. As you can imagine, many survivors don't want to be notified a month or a year later that an additional body part has been matched to their departed loved ones, and select option 2. To all of you who are shocked and horrified - what would you have the mortuary affairs folks do with the odd body part that is later matched to the deceased, when their next of kin have selected option two? Naturally, cremation seems appropriate. The government has already been authorized to dispose of additional remains, so what's wrong with putting the cremains in a dumpster? The deceased have already been honored and buried, presumably with respect, so if the families don't want to be notified, and have instructed the government to determine disposition, I fail to see the cause for hysteric uproar. And yes, if a limb of mine turns up a year after I'm dead and gone, feel free to incinerate it and throw the ash/bone mix away. Flame on.

Really? If that was you, is that how you want your wife/mother/children to know that's how the government and country you swore in to defend treats your remains? I mean, I'm not a pilot or anything, but that's kind of ######ed.... Even from my civilian POV...

[Guest]

Speechless.

[NEflyer]

This is an insult to far more than just the fallen and their families. Think about those who put their lives on the line and in many cases made the ultimate sacrifice as to not leave behind the remains of a fallen brother. Having those remains which were fought for with blood, sweat, and tears treated like this is just beyond words.

Looks like the story has rightfully made its way to the front page.

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

Edited December 9, 2011 by NEflyer

[Ram]

Bin Laden at least got a burial at sea. American servicemembers in a fucking DUMPSTER? Criminal.

[pcola]

Naturally, cremation seems appropriate. The government has already been authorized to dispose of additional remains, so what's wrong with putting the cremains in a dumpster? The deceased have already been honored and buried, presumably with respect, so if the families don't want to be notified, and have instructed the government to determine disposition, I fail to see the cause for hysteric uproar. And yes, if a limb of mine turns up a year after I'm dead and gone, feel free to incinerate it and throw the ash/bone mix away.

Flame on.

REALLY, DUDE? REALLY? Take the opportunity to reconsider what you've written. Would you want your wife or kids put in a dumpster? What about your brother/sister/mom/dad? REALLY? I doubt it. In fact, if you really put yourself in the shoes of a loved one and not the deceased, I think you'll see it differently. I think to most, the thought of their deceased children ending up in a dumpster is enraging. These soldiers were somebody's children.

[Boxhead]

Put in a dumpster? No thanks. I do however, want this... (I think it was previously discussed somewhere on here)

http://myholysmoke.com/

[LJDRVR]

Weal, the spin has begun. Panetta is "comfortable with how the Air Force has handled this."

I've about had it with what passes for leadership in this country. At least Randy Babbitt had the decency to resign the day after he was busted for drunk driving.

And here's some little piece of shit Pentagon PA briefer:

"I don't think there is another federal agency in this town, I don't think there is another institution in this country," that understands more about how to properly treat the remains of fallen troops, said Kirby, tapping the briefing room table for emphasis.

Apparently not, you little self-righteous, insensitive ass.

UFB

Edited December 9, 2011 by LJDRVR

[pawnman]

Weal, the spin has begun. Panetta is "comfortable with how the Air Force has handled this."

I've about had it with what passes for leadership in this country. At least Randy Babbitt had the decency to resign the day after he was busted for drunk driving.

And here's some little piece of shit Pentagon PA briefer:

"I don't think there is another federal agency in this town, I don't think there is another institution in this country," that understands more about how to properly treat the remains of fallen troops, said Kirby, tapping the briefing room table for emphasis.

Apparently not, you little self-righteous, insensitive ass.

UFB

I sure hope any other federal agencies tasked with this do a better job. I can't say I'm that familiar with the process...is the Air Force the only service that has this job? I know the other services do funerals and such, but do they also have a large processing facility similar to Dover? Maybe that's what he meant by "There's not another federal agency in this town"...they are the only federal agency that does it.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of institutions that understand you don't throw the remains of soldiers in the dump. I could introduce him to a few...the VFW is only a few blocks from my house.

[Catbox]

I sure hope any other federal agencies tasked with this do a better job. I can't say I'm that familiar with the process...is the Air Force the only service that has this job? I know the other services do funerals and such, but do they also have a large processing facility similar to Dover? Maybe that's what he meant by "There's not another federal agency in this town"...they are the only federal agency that does it.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of institutions that understand you don't throw the remains of soldiers in the dump. I could introduce him to a few...the VFW is only a few blocks from my house.

I remember from my field training days at our “intro to Dover” brief that we were told that the Port Mortuary was the only one in the CONUS that handles all DOD service members who have died overseas. So all of the nations war dead are processed through Dover regardless of service.

Here’s the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Mortuary

[Rockafire Explosion]

REALLY, DUDE? REALLY? Take the opportunity to reconsider what you've written. Would you want your wife or kids put in a dumpster? What about your brother/sister/mom/dad? REALLY? I doubt it. In fact, if you really put yourself in the shoes of a loved one and not the deceased, I think you'll see it differently. I think to most, the thought of their deceased children ending up in a dumpster is enraging. These soldiers were somebody's children.

Reconsidering... Nope, still not all that alarmed by this. To answer your hypothetical - if I had buried my wife or kids, and told the authorities to not notify me if they find more, and to dispose of additional remains as they see fit, then fine. These remains in question are being treated just like medical waste - suppose you have frostbitten toes that get removed in the hospital, what do you think they do with your toes? Burial at sea? No, incinerator and dumpter. Point is, the facility is treating unwanted remains the same as medical waste. That should be the real headline, not the hype inducing "soldiers in landfills" but that sells papers I guess.

I'll agree that the landfill may not be the best place, but really the options are limited when the family has specifically declined notification. Burial at sea seems respectful, but then what are the chances of a partially cremated ulna washing up on the beach somewhere down the line? A mass grave behind the facility seems appropriate also, but would be pretty labor intensive and require recurring upkeep. Someone said Arlington, that would work too I guess, but some might find the idea of hundreds of unwanted remains jumbled together to be as unappealing as a landfill.

Finally, as much as I want to see Skeletor move on, why is Schwartz being singled out on this site for this? As far as I can tell from the news articles, this stopped before he was appointed.

[TreeA10]

There is a precedent for a combined burial. Unidentified remains of the Challenger crew was buried in Arlington in a joint grave. Why this or something similar was not done is unacceptable and the idiots in charge should be handed a shovel and fix this oversight immediately.

[Day Man]

comparing frostbitten toes to KIA? nice dude...feel free to choke yourself in a landfill.

[ExBoneOSO]

Bullshit..

suppose you have frostbitten toes that get removed in the hospital, what do you think they do with your toes?

There's a huge moral and ethical difference between disposing of limbs from a medical standpoint and the dignified disposal of any part of any deceased person. It's amplified 1069% by the fact that we're talking about remains of one of our brothers/sisters in arms.

the facility is treating unwanted remains the same as medical waste.

While this is apparently what happened, this still in no way absolves anyone in the mortuary's chain of command from their responsibility to do the right thing - and dumping the remains anywhere was definitely not the right thing.

if I had buried my wife or kids, and told the authorities to not notify me if they find more, and to dispose of additional remains as they see fit, then fine

A family member choosing to not be notified is NOT the same as giving the mortuary permission to dump the cremains in a landfill. There is a certain expectation that the remains would have been handled in a dignified way.

A mass grave behind the facility seems appropriate also, but would be pretty labor intensive and require recurring upkeep.

How big of a grave is needed to bury an urn that's holding cremated body parts? Can't see where that would be labor intensive.

Someone said Arlington, that would work too I guess, but some might find the idea of hundreds of unwanted remains jumbled together to be as unappealing as a landfill.

Again, I'd think most people would rather have unclaimed remains buried properly, no matter how many are involved. See what LA County did last week?

http://www.latimes.c...0,3641045.story

In a simple yet poignant ceremony Wednesday near a busy Boyle Heights intersection, the ashes of more than 1,600 people who had never been identified or whose bodies were never claimed were buried in a single grave.

The mass burial has become a custom each December at the Los Angeles County Crematory and Cemetery. This year's ceremony was attended by just a few, none of whom knew the deceased.

The Rev. Chris Ponnet, a chaplain at County-USC Medical Center, led the service for "the nameless and the named but unclaimed" — 1,639 bodies in all.

Interfaith burial rites and prayers were included, with readings from the Islamic, Buddhist, Jewish and Christian traditions. The ceremony concluded with the Serenity Prayer, Psalm 23 and a blessing of hands over the burial site.

THAT's how it's supposed to be done. IMHO, I think the cremains should be buried at a National Cemetery, but I guess the burial at sea option is better than the King George County Landfill.

[LJDRVR]

Reconsidering... Nope, still not all that alarmed by this.

I'll agree that the landfill may not be the best place

May not? No, isn't. Regardless of what the families requested regarding additional remains, we have a moral obligation to treat human remains with dignity and respect. The fact that you cannot see that either leads me to beieve you are trolling or are simply lack normal, emotionally intelligent SA regarding the realities of this situation as most folks see it. Just because you don't give a crap doesn't mean that families, citizens and those who serve are not apalled that anybody would think this is appropriate.

Even faded and torn flags are handled respectfully with a reading of poem before they are burned by the VFW.

These are human remains. People that fought for us. They deserve better than how they were handled. This country deserves better.

Edited December 9, 2011 by LJDRVR

[Rockafire Explosion]

Point is, the facility is treating unwanted remains the same as medical waste. That should be the real headline..

comparing frostbitten toes to KIA? nice dude...feel free to choke yourself in a landfill.

Feel free to click the below link and learn some basic reading comprehension skills. When you feel like you can formulate a logical argument, try again.

Hooked on Phonics

[Jaded]

Don't feed the troll.

[135ASelect]

I'm appalled and outraged at the treatment of my fallen brothers and sisters in arms. Something in this country has to change, we need new leaders not just getting rid of Schwartz and the cronies at the top, but also in the Congress, the Senate, the whole place. When this happens to our men and women in uniform and the country isnt outraged because their too busy watching some bulls**t reality show we've hit a new low. I am ashamed as an American servicemember and citizen that this has happened.

[HercDude]

I'm appalled and outraged at the treatment of my fallen brothers and sisters in arms. Something in this country has to change, we need new leaders not just getting rid of Schwartz and the cronies at the top, but also in the Congress, the Senate, the whole place. When this happens to our men and women in uniform and the country isnt outraged because their too busy watching some bulls**t reality show we've hit a new low. I am ashamed as an American servicemember and citizen that this has happened.

Settle down Chicken Little. As has been pointed out a couple times, this all stopped 3 years ago, when T-Mike was CSAF. And what in the shit does "the Congress, the Senate, the whole place" have to do with the inner workings of Dover AFB? There are plenty of problems in this country that you can blame on our elected leaders, but the disposal of remains in Delaware is not one of them.

[Guest]

I'm appalled and outraged...

Is your signature block for real?

[matmacwc]

The dates don't make sense.

[HU&W]

The dates don't make sense.

Sure they do, for somebody that DOR's on their dollar ride.

[BitteEinBit]

The dates don't make sense.

OH SNAP! Someone has some essplainin to do!

Edited for drunken buffoonery

Edited December 10, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[hd5032]

- Because it is a slap in the face of all those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the defense of our nation.

- Because putting human remains in a dumpster is ######ing wrong (and probably illegal if the first Google hit for "abuse of a corpse" is any indication).

Are you really this clueless, or are you just trolling in a particularly vile manner?

I really hope you're trolling - I don't like to think that one of my brothers-in-arms wouldn't have a problem with dumping the remains of a fellow American in a ######ing dumpster.

Not defending what was done here (there's no defense), but FWIW, cremated remains (cremains) aren't considered human remains anymore (legally speaking). That's why you can scatter them, keep them in your home, basically handle them however you feel is appropriate. So there's no abuse of corpse violations here.

Morally and ethically speaking, of course, is a completely different story. This boggles the mind. It reminds me of the movie Taking Chance and how they praised the work that is done at Dover (Which, to be fair, is probably the case with 99% of what goes on there, its done well and dignified). How can a place that is supposed to take such pride in honoring our war dead, allow something like this to happen.

[JarheadBoom]

Not defending what was done here (there's no defense), but FWIW, cremated remains (cremains) aren't considered human remains anymore (legally speaking). That's why you can scatter them, keep them in your home, basically handle them however you feel is appropriate. So there's no abuse of corpse violations here.

I'm not a lawyer, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night... hence my use of the word "probably".

Morally and ethically speaking, of course, is a completely different story.

Concur 100%, and is why I stand by my statement, regardless of the legality of the act.

[hd5032]

I'm not a lawyer, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night... hence my use of the word "probably".

Concur 100%, and is why I stand by my statement, regardless of the legality of the act.

No problem, we're on the same page. I was just commenting on that one part of your statement. I realize you weren't stating a fact. My family is in the funeral home/cemetery/crematory business, and I've worked at all three at one time or another, helping out.