What's wrong with the Air Force?

[LookieRookie]

17 minutes ago, RTB said:

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

It does or at least should have started it.

Edited September 21, 2017 by LookieRookie

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, RTB said:

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Edited September 21, 2017 by tac airlifter

[ThreeHoler]

25 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations.

If we show to the jet, AMCC, squadron, etc. then my crew has started the FDP. Brief time doesn’t start our clock in AMC; show time (at the aforementioned locations) does.

If I’m awake and check the weather or SMS from my hotel room, then I’m not breaking crew rest by 202V3 2.1.2. If I get on the bus, I am still in the 12 hours of crew rest set aside for transportation, meals, etc.

This is why we have MAJCOM and Wing supplements...MAJCOMs have operational authority.

[RTB]

55 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Well that escalated quickly.  

25 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations

Apparently so.   Good info, sounds quite a bit different.  If we were briefing a mission or reviewing mission slides at the squadron or ops facility, our crew rest was over.

Edited September 21, 2017 by RTB

[tac airlifter]

25 minutes ago, RTB said:

Well that escalated quickly.  

Eh, not my intent. Sorry if it came off rudely. Like threeholer said, we all have different rules & norms.  I appreciate hearing other perspectives.

[dream big]

6 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

I've always thought limits were set for a reason.  If anything goes wrong, whether fatigue related or not, extending your day is going to be questioned by just about everybody and will be the first nail driven by the higher food chain CYA crowd.

I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up?

[ThreeHoler]

58 minutes ago, dream big said:

I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up?

There are people who think that...but not the people who write the 202/217.

Speaking of which...new 217V1 “soon.” God help us all!

[HossHarris]

4 hours ago, RTB said:

Well that escalated quickly.  

Here at a major airline, if I think about flying my flight duty period has started ....

[BADFNZ]

As the PIC, I just turn down FDP waivers every time.  Problem solved.

Edited September 22, 2017 by BADFNZ

[BashiChuni]

fascinating to see each communities take on this...to me this is a good change, but i can see how AMC would abuse it

[HU&W]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

fascinating to see each communities take on this...to me this is a good change, but i can see how AMC would abuse it

When TACC confuses themselves with PIC, what do you expect?

[MDDieselPilot]

On 9/21/2017 at 2:00 PM, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Different communities, different atmospheres.  

I got burned by a load one time because she "didn't get a full 12 hours crew rest."  At an undisclosed location in southwest asia, I set my crew for alert around 15hrs prior.  I went by her room but she didn't answer after knocking several times and there was no chow hall/cadillac/bra note on her door.  I wrote the alert time on her board, and left.  Alert time rolls around and no call.. I eventually call the DO and he said they canx'd my line because I never notified my (1 of 2) loadmaster.  Evidently, this young gal was sleeping when I came by, stumbled out of her room with 9 hours left until alert, saw the legal time, and called in to say she wasn't going to get a full 12 hours of rest... EVEN THOUGH SHE HAD JUST BEEN SLEEPING.  I was irate, but how do you explain to a very new airman when to bend rules when she could very easily burn me again with "Well Capt DieselPilot said it's okay to violate this AFI." 

I'm guessing you're in a crew community as well, but sometimes we have to account for the lowest common denominator which means following the rules past any reasonable expectation.

[pawnman]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:30 PM, ThreeHoler said:

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations.

If we show to the jet, AMCC, squadron, etc. then my crew has started the FDP. Brief time doesn’t start our clock in AMC; show time (at the aforementioned locations) does.

If I’m awake and check the weather or SMS from my hotel room, then I’m not breaking crew rest by 202V3 2.1.2. If I get on the bus, I am still in the 12 hours of crew rest set aside for transportation, meals, etc.

This is why we have MAJCOM and Wing supplements...MAJCOMs have operational authority.

That sound awful.  Our crew rest ends when we set foot in the squadron for the mission brief followed by the step brief.  That is, according to our interpretation of the AFI, "performing official duties" and therefore not "time away from official duties".

[herkbier]

14 hours ago, pawnman said:

That sound awful.  Our crew rest ends when we set foot in the squadron for the mission brief followed by the step brief.  That is, according to our interpretation of the AFI, "performing official duties" and therefore not "time away from official duties".

I think you guys are saying the same thing. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Herkbier

[MCO]

Seems like a lot of violent agreement. I'm for the change because it makes it easier for me as the PIC to make a reasonable decision and get a much faster response, but leaves me the ability to refuse if I think its unsafe. Unless I'm interpreting this wrong. Just my 2 cents.

[Guest]

Seems like a lot of violent agreement. I'm for the change because it makes it easier for me as the PIC to make a reasonable decision and get a much faster response, but leaves me the ability to refuse if I think its unsafe. Unless I'm interpreting this wrong. Just my 2 cents.

The downside is when you refuse and TACC bitches to your CC who then decides you’re not a “team player.” Not a risk with my current boss, but seen some who like to second guess their ACs decisions.

[Lawman]

The downside is when you refuse and TACC bitches to your CC who then decides you’re not a “team player.” Not a risk with my current boss, but seen some who like to second guess their ACs decisions.

Is that like when weather always seems like it is exactly within the minimums even when you walk back from the aircraft soaked/covered in snow.

Gotta love that crap.

[dream big]

On 10/5/2017 at 11:28 PM, Lawman said:

 

Is that like when weather always seems like it is exactly within the minimums even when you walk back from the aircraft soaked/covered in snow.

Gotta love that crap.

 

Or when home station coordinates with AMD behind your back to extend duty day to 18 hours so you can bring a tail back home a day earlier for the purposes of an Air show.  

[Lord Ratner]

Or when home station coordinates with AMD behind your back to extend duty day to 18 hours so you can bring a tail back home a day earlier for the purposes of an Air show.  

This only stops when ACs have the backbone to say "no."

[matmacwc]

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

On 10/7/2017 at 2:59 PM, dream big said:

Or when home station coordinates with AMD behind your back to extend duty day to 18 hours so you can bring a tail back home a day earlier for the purposes of an Air show.  

This only stops when ACs have the backbone to say "no."

Good point, they will fry you if you screw up during "extended" crew rest, don't do it.  As a fighter guy I'd say no  and crack a beer.......done.

Edited October 9, 2017 by matmacwc

[Lord Ratner]

Good point, they will fry you if you screw up during "extended" crew rest, don't do it.  As a fighter guy I'd say no  and crack a beer.......done.

I've had to do it once. Got a satcom call in the jet saying our duty day was "approved for extension to 18 hours." I told them since I wasn't the originator of the extension request, I couldn't accept it. Got an incredulous O-5 who didn't think it worked than way, but I quoted the reg and asked if we had a waiver from HAF for me not requesting it. Issue dropped. Didn't even need the extension anyways.

Standard disclaimer about getting in the bad Graces of your CC or DO, but these days they don't have the luxury of black balling people for following the regs

[dream big]

On 10/9/2017 at 12:00 AM, Lord Ratner said:

On 10/8/2017 at 12:59 AM, dream big said:

Or when home station coordinates with AMD behind your back to extend duty day to 18 hours so you can bring a tail back home a day earlier for the purposes of an Air show.  

This only stops when ACs have the backbone to say "no."

I did say no ;)

[HuggyU2]

21 hours ago, matmacwc said:

As a fighter guy I'd say no  and crack a beer.......done.

It's all about S.A. on your event timing.  And this should be briefed early.  

Crack the beer at the earliest possible point... THEN take the phone call from the caller ID that says "SQ/DO"... THEN say "Unable".  

Amateurs...

Got a satcom call in the jet saying our duty day was "approved for extension to 18 hours." 

Hmmm... my advice on cracking the beer would be more difficult.  But you'd be legendary if you used it in this case.  

Edited October 9, 2017 by HuggyU2

[Seriously]

5 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

It's all about S.A. on your event timing.  And this should be briefed early.  

Crack the beer at the earliest possible point... THEN take the phone call from the caller ID that says "SQ/DO"... THEN say "Unable".  

Amateurs...

Hmmm... my advice on cracking the beer would be more difficult.  But you'd be legendary if you used it in this case.  

You guys didn't carry a tube of beer for just such an ocassion?

[matmacwc]

Mine was a night F-16 flight, entire base was cancelled due to blowing snow and top 3 was stringing us along, I'd had enough.