Insubordinate & Churlish Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Like (I think it was Bergman said), the idea of commercial aviation as a career at 32 with a wife and kids is questionable. A family friend retired as an O-5, and is now a plumber on a FedEx 727-200. Imagine going from flying the Viper and being a squadron commander to becoming an FE on a 727 who does not reasonably expect to be a line pilot for three years i.e. three years on reserve. To keep the family happy, he commutes to work by catching a ride with some truckers for the 1.5 hour drive to his home airport. Now, fortunately this guy has a retirement check coming his way, but consider the lifestyle change. Could you deal with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springer Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Like (I think it was Bergman said), the idea of commercial aviation as a career at 32 with a wife and kids is questionable. A family friend retired as an O-5, and is now a plumber on a FedEx 727-200. Imagine going from flying the Viper and being a squadron commander to becoming an FE on a 727 who does not reasonably expect to be a line pilot for three years i.e. three years on reserve. To keep the family happy, he commutes to work by catching a ride with some truckers for the 1.5 hour drive to his home airport. Now, fortunately this guy has a retirement check coming his way, but consider the lifestyle change. Could you deal with that? Guys, whatever you are flying, enjoy it, make the most of it. Never, ever thought I would tire of flying but sold my RV-4 yesterday at age 60+. That after a commercial airline career and a recce/FAC puke before that. First time without a 'ride' in 39 years. I was one of the lucky ones, right time, right place. I know the AF bs is tough to put up with and I left in part because of it, but don't even think about going commercial unless the majors open up hiring in a big way which I predict will not happen for some time. I commuted during the good times and would not even consider it today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discus Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Guys, whatever you are flying, enjoy it, make the most of it. Never, ever thought I would tire of flying but sold my RV-4 yesterday at age 60+. That after a commercial airline career and a recce/FAC puke before that. First time without a 'ride' in 39 years. I was one of the lucky ones, right time, right place. I know the AF bs is tough to put up with and I left in part because of it, but don't even think about going commercial unless the majors open up hiring in a big way which I predict will not happen for some time. I commuted during the good times and would not even consider it today. That must be heartbreaking having to sell your airplane after so many years of having one. I'm only 33, but I dread the day that time comes for me. Hopefully never. Thanks for your service, and your insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Hungus Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Hmm...I prefer to think there just isn't any justice. As always...Rule #1: Timing is everything, Rule #2: Life isn't fair, Rule #: There is no justice. The three tenets of a happy AF career. Or, perhaps there is justice. If there wasn't, they wouldn't have been able to get back on AD or make O-5. That all depends on how you define "sweet gig". Yes, their pay scales are industry-leading right now, but quality of life is not so good for the junior guys. I have watched first-hand as many of my squadron mates have been displaced from their cozy Louisville, KY, domicle to scenic Anchorage, AK. The good news is that they were "forced" to switch to the MD-11 or B-747, but the schedules they fly are awful, especially since most of them haven't moved to Alaska. They will have 13 day trips, off for 5 days, then another 13 day trip. Add a day-long commute on either end of those UPS trips and they get 3 days off. Oh wait, they still have ANG obligations to fulfill, so make that 1 day off. FedEx is doing the same thing...displacing peope to Paris, Hong Kong, etc. I just think there isn't any "fairy tale" airline career any more. The days of making $300,000/year to work 10 days a month, plus fly F-4s with the ANG on the weekend, all the while living in domicile, then getting a sweet $100,000/year company funded retirement are over. If you have a realistic expectation for an airline career - $80,000-$100,000 and gone from home 150-180 days per year - then you won't be disappointed. Compare that to $110,000+ per year as an AF Major and TDY 100-120 days per year, plus pretty good job security. I'll stick with Uncle Sam on this one. Gone 100-120 days a year? More like 200 in my community, probably more. I agree with your overall point, but it all comes down to individual preferences. I think people (not just AF pilots, humanity in general) worry too much about a paycheck. You (the royal you) don't really need the F350, the 2.4 kids, the 2400 sq ft house in the suburbs, the jobless wife, etc to be happy. I don't know if I'll one day pursue the airline/ commercial gig when my time's up. I'll cross that bridge when it presents itself. But I do know that unless there are huge changes to the non-flying aspects of the AF that I deal with day-to-day, there's not a chance in hell I'll stay active duty. It's just not worth it. I'd rather be happy, poor, and get my flying/service fix via the Guard/Reserves while running my dive bar in the Bahamas selling alcohol to underage girls on spring break than put up with the overall gayness that plagues this job. But that's just me. You only get one chance at life, best enjoy it while you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripilot Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I wish there were some way to put the message conveyed by Smokin and Hungus into perspective for the guys (like myself) about to embark on an AF career. I read threads like this one to understand what the different missions are like, and how different officers feel about those missions. Partly, I'm hoping to get excited about the opportunities that my future could hold. But just as frequently, I find myself somewhat disheartened. All this shit about reflective belts, shoes, "overall gayness," etc.-- makes me wonder if I know what I'm getting myself into; makes me wonder if I'm going to end up trapped in something I regret. I suppose it doesn't really make a difference. I feel impelled to do what I'm doing; I've got a chance so rare that I know I'll regret it if I turned away. And, anyway, you would always presume that reality is going to be a little less wonderful than what you dream. And the big picture is probably that you have to deal with bull$hit no matter where you go in life, so better learn to man up and make the best of it. I guess it's just that ... like everyone else ... I'd feel a lot happier about it if I were getting into a military 50 years ago, a military less dominated by bureaucracy and political sensibility. I'd love to be able to sign up for an airframe and a mission, and not have to worry if all the stuff on the side is going to crush my spirit, before I've even begun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNFRED Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I love my job, I just hate the Air Force. That doesn't mean that I'd think about the Navy or something, I'd probably hate that even more. I really just don't like the pussification of the military in general, but I don't think that anything short of WWIII would change that (and maybe not even then). Reference the human weapon system thread. I fly the Viper (although I'm just starting my ALFA tour right now) and have loved it. There's nothing more fun than low level pop attacks on the range, nothing more challenging than 4vX DCA sorties, and I'd imagine nothing more rewarding than knowing that guys on the ground are going to live to see their family again because you were there (never actually been downrange myself, so that last part is speculation on my part). The pace of an ops assignment will wear you down, but I've found that it is all the extra queep that big blue sticks us with that really wears you out. After getting home from a 12+ hour day where we double or triple turned good sorties, I'm physically tired. But after even a 10 hour day of work that I consider to be worthless and am only doing because some two star somewhere made an off-hand remark about wanting some more information on something, I get home and am far more tired (mentally and physically) than a tougher day doing something worthwhile. And to the C-5 guy who said C-5 pilots don't deploy; yes, you don't deploy as a unit or even as aircrews, but I personally know C-5 pilots who have been non-vol'd on individual non-fly deployments. That is exactly what I meant. Unit or aircrew wise. Of course everyone serving big blue is subject to be voluntold on any given day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08Dawg Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Granted, I'm only a dumb FTU stud, but here goes... I love the Buff. I love that we can reach out and bring a world of hurt to the bad guys across the globe, and that we have a wide assortment of hurt we can dump on their asses, that we are the choice to kick down the door and take the names. I love our history. Fifty plus years, and we're still viable, adaptable, and going strong with very little end in sight. We've kicked ass around the globe. Vietnam, Iraq, Kosovo, Iraq again, Afghanistan...Our enemies around the world have quaked in fear of the massive amounts of death and destruction we've rained down on them, their morale utterly shattered under the never-ending onslaught of falling bombs. Anyway, while we might have our shortfalls, the B-52 is an awesome damn plane, and if you don't like it...that's your damn problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I think people find it's easy to reminisce about a past they weren't there for...because the only stories the old-timers tell are the exciting ones. Case in point: one of my buddies has a grandfather who served on B-17s during WWII. When they left for missions, there was a certain way their duffel bags were supposed to be secured to the foot of the bed. Well, grandpa's duffel was apparently not quite secure enough and slipped to the floor while he was flying over Nazi Germany. When he gets back, some Major had left a note on the duffel to come see him. Said major then spent 15 minutes chewing out gramps for failing to follow the rules and secure his duffel bag. This after a raid in which many of grandpa's friends were shot out of the sky by enemy fighters or AAA. It's easy to glamorize the past, but I have a feeling there have been shoe-clerks ever since the first cave man realized that a group of people with pointy sticks was more effective than a single person with a pointy stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoAround Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Flight pay, BAH, etc. It happens. I've got old LES's to prove it. A major with a high BAH, flight pay, BAS, base pay, and ACP makes over $130K. My old DO was making over $160K before he retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperWSO Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I wish there were some way to put the message conveyed by Smokin and Hungus into perspective for the guys (like myself) about to embark on an AF career. ... All this shit about reflective belts, shoes, "overall gayness," etc.-- makes me wonder if I know what I'm getting myself into; makes me wonder if I'm going to end up trapped in something I regret. Tripilot, I have worked three jobs in my life. I worked at a drug store as a cashier/stock clerk/everything else. I've worked at a state University running computer labs, and I have worked for the Air Force. I don't know if you have ever seen the movie Office Space, but that movie reminded me of the crappy points of every job I have ever worked. No matter what you choose to do, there will be somebody in the office who bitches about it, there will always be a boss who "doesn't get it", there will always be changes that seem arbitrary. It is the same for trash truck drivers and AF Thunderbirds. Ask yourself this question - will having to put on a reflective belt in broad daylight (what the hell, even clown shoes and a rubber nose) really detract from flying a jet, blowing stuff up, traveling around the world, etc. Everyone here will tell you that putting on a bag (flight suit) entitles the wearer to bitch about anything and everything under the sun. A few folks get tired and get out, but those folks probably feel the grass is always greener somewhere else. In my experience - it isn't. Thats my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I wish there were some way to put the message conveyed by Smokin and Hungus into perspective for the guys (like myself) about to embark on an AF career. I read threads like this one to understand what the different missions are like, and how different officers feel about those missions. Partly, I'm hoping to get excited about the opportunities that my future could hold. But just as frequently, I find myself somewhat disheartened. All this shit about reflective belts, shoes, "overall gayness," etc.-- makes me wonder if I know what I'm getting myself into; makes me wonder if I'm going to end up trapped in something I regret. Don't get me wrong. If I right now I could go back and talk to myself 10 years ago, there are no major decisions that I would change. Yes, we all get pissed off by the gayness of the Air Force and more than once I have found myself wishing I joined the Marine Corps instead, but I don't think I would be happier anywhere else. The last three years of an ops assignment in Europe were probably the best three years that I will ever have in my life (if not, I will be pleasantly surprised). I flew with fighters from almost a dozen countries, traveled so much we wore out two sets of suitcases, and drank ten times my weight in Bavarian beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergman Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Gone 100-120 days a year? More like 200 in my community, probably more. I figured I would take some heat over that number. My assumption was that by the time a guy reaches 12-15 years and O-4, he's probably an ADO or Flt/CC and just ins't pulling the 180-200 that most of the company grade guys fly. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. I wish there were some way to put the message conveyed by Smokin and Hungus into perspective for the guys (like myself) about to embark on an AF career. I read threads like this one to understand what the different missions are like, and how different officers feel about those missions. Partly, I'm hoping to get excited about the opportunities that my future could hold. But just as frequently, I find myself somewhat disheartened. All this shit about reflective belts, shoes, "overall gayness," etc.-- makes me wonder if I know what I'm getting myself into; makes me wonder if I'm going to end up trapped in something I regret. Life is all about attitude, bro. It would be very easy for me to say "I hate flying tankers...I should be flying XXX...I can't believe I got this crappy TDY..." and on and on. And, truth be told, I have complained about some of those very things over the years. But the fact is that we make our own reality. I focus on the great parts of my job, and almost magically, it makes the shitty parts seem not quite as bad. Self-fulfilling prophecies can be very powerful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Justshootme Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Granted, I'm only a dumb FTU stud, but here goes... I love the Buff. I love that we can reach out and bring a world of hurt to the bad guys across the globe, and that we have a wide assortment of hurt we can dump on their asses, that we are the choice to kick down the door and take the names. I love our history. Fifty plus years, and we're still viable, adaptable, and going strong with very little end in sight. We've kicked ass around the globe. Vietnam, Iraq, Kosovo, Iraq again, Afghanistan...Our enemies around the world have quaked in fear of the massive amounts of death and destruction we've rained down on them, their morale utterly shattered under the never-ending onslaught of falling bombs. Anyway, while we might have our shortfalls, the B-52 is an awesome damn plane, and if you don't like it...that's your damn problem. Yup...you didn't need to self-identify. Clearly only an FTU student. I'm not tryin' to flame ya, but your opinion at this stage in your career is mostly worthless as it pertains to this particular conversation. Get to your ops squadron, become CMR, and be a crewdog for 2-3 years. Then you shed light on this perspective for the OP, who, in reality, knows about as much about being a Buff guy as you do right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoo Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 I think people find it's easy to reminisce about a past they weren't there for...because the only stories the old-timers tell are the exciting ones. Case in point: one of my buddies has a grandfather who served on B-17s during WWII. When they left for missions, there was a certain way their duffel bags were supposed to be secured to the foot of the bed. Well, grandpa's duffel was apparently not quite secure enough and slipped to the floor while he was flying over Nazi Germany. When he gets back, some Major had left a note on the duffel to come see him. Said major then spent 15 minutes chewing out gramps for failing to follow the rules and secure his duffel bag. This after a raid in which many of grandpa's friends were shot out of the sky by enemy fighters or AAA. It's easy to glamorize the past, but I have a feeling there have been shoe-clerks ever since the first cave man realized that a group of people with pointy sticks was more effective than a single person with a pointy stick. Great post - bullshit queep is not a new invention. Today's reflective belt is yesterday's duffel bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 This post makes flying in the AF the worse job in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 WTF are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingOsh Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Weird... Every IP I fly with ends the brief something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Davies Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Yeah, what she said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoo Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 This post makes flying in the AF the worse job in the world. Huh? Maybe I'm missing something because I'm on a Gov comp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Translation: It's Tuesday morning and Scoobs' liver still hasn't cleaned up from Alabama's win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CharlieFoxtrot Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 (edited) Huh? Maybe I'm missing something because I'm on a Gov comp? I'm still a little "wut?" at that post but I think what he's saying is that y'all are making it sound like being an AF Pilot is 99.9% miserable shit and 0.1% awesomeness. Edited January 12, 2010 by CharlieFoxtrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 I'm still a little "wut?" at that post but I think what he's saying is that y'all are making it sound like being an AF Pilot is 99.9% miserable shit and 0.1% awesomeness. reality is a bitch sometimes. it's a sad state of things when a squadron full of aviators views flying as a bad thing because it takes away time from accomplishing all the queep shit they have to do for their ground job. I'm sure it's like this everywhere, but we're so short manned, even brand new copilots immediately have 2-3 jobs to do (scheduling + snacko + LOS taskings like putting together an airshow appearance). Not that some of that shit isn't a CP right of passage, but new CPs should be doing as little as possible that doesn't involve flying, learning the WS, and becoming better pilots, and THEN after a little while they can start to juggle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CharlieFoxtrot Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 reality is a bitch sometimes. it's a sad state of things when a squadron full of aviators views flying as a bad thing because it takes away time from accomplishing all the queep shit they have to do for their ground job. I'm sure it's like this everywhere, but we're so short manned, even brand new copilots immediately have 2-3 jobs to do (scheduling + snacko + LOS taskings like putting together an airshow appearance). Not that some of that shit isn't a CP right of passage, but new CPs should be doing as little as possible that doesn't involve flying, learning the WS, and becoming better pilots, and THEN after a little while they can start to juggle. I guess one must distinguish between the usual bitching and moaning that goes on with every job, no matter how good (with the possible exception of 'playboy photographer') and the stuff to take seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperWSO Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 (edited) I guess one must distinguish between the usual bitching and moaning that goes on with every job, no matter how good (with the possible exception of 'playboy photographer') and the stuff to take seriously. Well, since you mentioned it - I think I saw this somewhere else on Baseops, but it seems to fit the current discussion. Its in Italian, so I'm not sure but I think he says they make him wear a reflective belt. Edited January 13, 2010 by SuperWSO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaJu Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 I think that's Portugese...but nice video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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