Gun Talk

[ClearedHot]

Got my optics squared away on my MPX.  Large Field of View Green Dot with a fold away 3 X Magnifier.

 

 

[Lord Ratner]

22 hours ago, Prosuper said:

I got trained on the old Berreta M9, and own one now, because I got trained on it. Never heard of one those going off unless someone playing stupid games winning stupid prizes. Our elders could probably say the same about the 1911 .45 or the SW .38.

Prior to the series 80, 1911s could and did go off from being dropped. And revolvers have an equally checkered past, including the Colt peacemaker. I would happily trust a Sig P320, fully conceding that there is some sort of unidentified mechanical malfunction occurring that causes them to occasionally misfire, over carrying a 1911 or revolver that our elders used to carry. Guns were not safer back then, we just didn't care about accidental deaths as much.

[busdriver]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Prior to the series 80, 1911s could and did go off from being dropped. And revolvers have an equally checkered past, including the Colt peacemaker. I would happily trust a Sig P320, fully conceding that there is some sort of unidentified mechanical malfunction occurring that causes them to occasionally misfire, over carrying a 1911 or revolver that our elders used to carry. Guns were not safer back then, we just didn't care about accidental deaths as much.

Your larger final point is fine and I agree, but your specific risk analysis of a 1911 vs the P320 is nonsense.

 

[Lord Ratner]

17 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Your larger final point is fine and I agree, but your specific risk analysis of a 1911 vs the P320 is nonsense.

 

A pre-series-80 1911. That's what I meant by "a 1911 or revolver that our elders used to carry."

 

I would choose a modern 1911 with a pin block over the 320. No worries if you don't agree, but those guns were not safe, just badass 🤣😂.

[busdriver]

13 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

A pre-series-80 1911. That's what I meant by "a 1911 or revolver that our elders used to carry."

I knew what you meant.

The series 70 drop fail requires you to drop it on the muzzle.  It shoots the ground.  I also think it's a reasonably low probability of happening.  Otherwise, it's pretty safe at normal duty spring rates and trigger geometries.  My competition guns are more questionable.

The P320 should theoretically should be better, however the striker safety failure rate seems to be pretty high (no more 320 advantage over 1911).  The slide to FCU play seems to be enough to allow the sear to release the striker in some cases, which inherently also skips the secondary notch.  All of the analogous components in a 1911 are in the frame, with essentially no play.

 

Side note: You can basically make a series 70 gun drop safe by using a titanium firing pin and an 2x extra power return spring.  This is how Springfield made CA legal 1911s.  You'll need to run a fairly heavy (23# or so) mainspring to make it work.

I'm not sure you can actually buy a Series 80 anymore for what it's worth.

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, busdriver said:

I knew what you meant.

The series 70 drop fail requires you to drop it on the muzzle.  It shoots the ground.  I also think it's a reasonably low probability of happening.  Otherwise, it's pretty safe at normal duty spring rates and trigger geometries.  My competition guns are more questionable.

The P320 should theoretically should be better, however the striker safety failure rate seems to be pretty high (no more 320 advantage over 1911).  The slide to FCU play seems to be enough to allow the sear to release the striker in some cases, which inherently also skips the secondary notch.  All of the analogous components in a 1911 are in the frame, with essentially no play.

 

Side note: You can basically make a series 70 gun drop safe by using a titanium firing pin and an 2x extra power return spring.  This is how Springfield made CA legal 1911s.  You'll need to run a fairly heavy (23# or so) mainspring to make it work.

I'm not sure you can actually buy a Series 80 anymore for what it's worth.

The point is not that you *can* make an older 1911 safe. That's a bit obvious. It was claimed that "our elders'" never heard of a 1911 or receiver going off. Prosuper is already an elder (🤣) so his elders are from the 1920's-1950's, and 1911s and revolvers were most definitely not safe in that era, and were in fact discharging unintentionally with regularity, even in comparison to the beleaguered P320. 

 

No gun that goes off when you drop it (or snag it on your clothes) is safe by any modern definition of the word. 

[busdriver]

9 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

1911s and revolvers were most definitely not safe in that era, and were in fact discharging unintentionally with regularity, even in comparison to the beleaguered P320. 

source for that?

 

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, busdriver said:

source for that?

 

First it didn't matter because the discharge was into the ground, now you need a source? Google it, bud. From Wyatt Earp and the "Cowboy Load" in revolvers to the very reason the series 80 was designed in the first place. Or are the titanium firing pins just for looks? Or the S&W Victory navy fatality that resulted in a safer design being procured. 

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Gun safety engineering hasn't improved? The 1911 community is always so defensive. Imagine arguing that a ’67 Mustang was just as safe to drive as a 2025 model, and asking the other guy to prove it. 

 

The 1911 was a huge leap forward... a century ago. Now it's just a neat gun with lots of nostalgia that almost no professionals in the world use (real shooting jobs, not competition shooting). I like mine. But I like my revolver too. Both are outdated relics. 

 

The P320 is safe enough that it takes *a lot* of active testing to get it to discharge. But that's not safe enough for what we expect from firearms today. Agreed. But you would have much less difficulty making our elders' guns discharge if you wanted to. 

[M2]

Technically no firearm is inherently safe, it's simply that some are "safer" than others based on their design, safety features and how they are handled.

The most critical safety factor is the person handling the weapon.  The Four Rules of Gun Safety dramatically reduce the risk but don't completely mitigate it.



The circumstances of this uncommanded discharge in the CCIR were different from what is being shared in the press.  It may be the initial reporting was wrong, or other factors are in play.  It's posted on the BaseOps SIPRNET page (just search for 'BaseOps' on Intellipedia to find it).  Details are CUI so do NOT post them here!  

Whether the P320/M17/M18 is faulty or not has yet to be determined, but at this point anyone who owns one should treat it exceptionally carefully until such time as the investigation is completed.  Hopefully no more injuries or deaths will occur before that happens!

[DirkDiggler]

1 hour ago, M2 said:

Technically no firearm is inherently safe, it's simply that some are "safer" than others based on their design, safety features and how they are handled.

The most critical safety factor is the person handling the weapon.  The Four Rules of Gun Safety dramatically reduce the risk but don't completely mitigate it.



The circumstances of this uncommanded discharge in the CCIR were different from what is being shared in the press.  It may be the initial reporting was wrong, or other factors are in play.  It's posted on the BaseOps SIPRNET page (just search for 'BaseOps' on Intellipedia to find it).  Details are CUI so do NOT post them here!  

Whether the P320/M17/M18 is faulty or not has yet to be determined, but at this point anyone who owns one should treat it exceptionally carefully until such time as the investigation is completed.  Hopefully no more injuries or deaths will occur before that happens!

My local range just banned them for the foreseeable future.  It's owned by a bunch of ex-military; they're all pretty chill dudes so I don't think they made the decision off the cuff (though I'm sure the liability issue was at the forefront).  Didn't matter to me since I don't own any Sigs.

[brabus]

Was talking about this last night in a group that included some extremely qualified dudes - I was surprised to find out they actually hate the entire company and aren’t surprised this is happening. Says something when guys at that level don’t have anything positive to say. I don’t own Sigs, but I certainly didn’t have that perspective on the company. Ouch. 

[uhhello]

AF mandated inspections for all m18s was released. Essentially removing the FCU and inspecting for burrs and issues with the sear.  

[busdriver]

13 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Gun safety engineering hasn't improved?

No.  I'll just say we got in a semantic argument past one another.  I'll try to be clear:

It appears that the P320's problems are bad enough that it is less safe than what was used in WW2.  Let alone the M9.

It remains to be seen what the actual problems are, all anyone really has at this point is educated guesses.

[herkbum]

I love my Sigs


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, busdriver said:

No.  I'll just say we got in a semantic argument past one another.  I'll try to be clear:

It appears that the P320's problems are bad enough that it is less safe than what was used in WW2.  Let alone the M9.

It remains to be seen what the actual problems are, all anyone really has at this point is educated guesses.

Gotcha. I don't think so. It was not relatively complicated to get an old 1911 to go off if you hit it right. That's not to say that it was something likely to happen, since most people aren't throwing their guns onto the ground barrel first, but then again this p320 issue is also quite exceptionally rare considering how many of them are in circulation. 

 

But you are absolutely correct, until we actually know what's going on with the p320, this is all speculation and educated guesses.

4 hours ago, brabus said:

Was talking about this last night in a group that included some extremely qualified dudes - I was surprised to find out they actually hate the entire company and aren’t surprised this is happening. Says something when guys at that level don’t have anything positive to say. I don’t own Sigs, but I certainly didn’t have that perspective on the company. Ouch. 

What were they saying? I'm very fond of their weapons, but I don't actually know anything about the company itself. Anecdotally I've talked to people who have had problems with their gun and Sig seemed willing to have it shipped to them for repair or modification by their gunsmiths.

20 minutes ago, herkbum said:

I love my Sigs

Same

I'm really glad this hasn't been documented for the P365, because it's a fantastic carry weapon.

[brabus]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

What were they saying?

Poor quality parts and QA in the last ten years or so. Things like cracking slides, burrs/shitty machining on name-your-part, etc. Sounds similar to when Remington bought Marlin and quality went down the shitter (but has since shot up since Ruger took over).

Now maybe most of these gripes are because they are shooting way more than the average guy/care about shit to the max OCD level. I’ve personally never had a bad sig experience, but I’m also not a pro. None of them use Sig weapons, and I suppose that says something (also, they mentioned how dudes from their communities who have poor bro reps are the ones pushing Sig in the market, obviously big bucks motivation).

Im not personally shitting on Sigs, just found it interesting coming from those dudes. 

Edited 19 hours ago by brabus

[brabus]

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

Poor quality parts and QA in the last ten years or so. Things like cracking slides, burrs/shitty machining on name-your-part, etc.

My brother's dept dumped their 226s 10 or 15 years ago.  Same story.

[M2]

"The International Defensive Pistol Association, Inc. (IDPA), in response to numerous reports and videos, is immediately prohibiting the use of the SIG Sauer P320 in all of it’s variants from any competition or event under the name of IDPA. All other SIG Sauer models may be used in the division appropriate for their configuration.

The goal of IDPA is safety first for our members, competitors, staff and spectators and all others associated with any IDPA event. While we have no direct knowledge of the potential technical defect of the weapon system, the volume of ranges, organizations and military units declaring a problem has made it too visible to deny. We will re-evaluate this decision in the future if new credible information emerges.

We are aware that this decision will affect a limited number of competitors at the National Championship. Please understand that safety for all in the sport is paramount. For those affected, please contact he**@id**.com . Division changes for those affected will be allowed until August 8.

“IDPA is committed to maintaining a fair, competitive, and inclusive environment for all shooters,” said IDPA President Joyce Wilson.

“Banning a particular firearm is the last thing we ever want to do as an organization, but the safety of our members and potential spectators has to come first."

[slc]

Ball is in your court Sig.......your move.  This will be interesting