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donkey

How Long For New Studs To Be Disillusioned?

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Hi All,

Hopefully this is different enough to warrant not being a side discussion in the "what's wrong with the AF" thread.  Obviously there's a decent percentage of Majors punching out due to reasons that have been adequately covered, but I was curious how long it takes new studs/Lt's to become disillusioned and want to get out as well.  There's probably a decent spread, but does it seem like most become fed up towards the last few years or is it trending towards less and less time in?  Does it seem like more and more pilots are becoming fed up with the fuck fuck games/general fuckery during/around their first ops tour?  UPT/first ops seems likes some of the best years, but I don't know.  On a related note, and probably more applicable towards OTS studs as opposed to AFA/ROTC, but are most people coming in still starry eyed or do most have at least some semblance of the issues plaguing the AF (ref. "what's wrong with the AF" thread). 

Appreciate the insight!

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16 minutes ago, donkey said:

....but I was curious how long it takes new studs/Lt's to become disillusioned and want to get out as well. 

Nobody probably cares since by the time their attitude matters and they can actually do something about it (i.e. get out) they’re the senior Captain or new Major you mentioned. 

Edited by JeremiahWeed

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I’m an OTS grad and initially thought I’d make a career out of the AF. At my first assignment, I upgraded early to AC and was able to lead a crew on my second combat deployment with only about 900hrs under my belt in the C-17. That was awesome, and I would have never gotten the opportunity to do that at such a young age anywhere else.

But it’s all about luck and timing. When I hit the VML, the large sucking sound we heard was everyone getting pulled into MC-12s and RPAs. By the time I hit the line flying the MQ-9, I knew I would be separating (and I applied to VSP multiple times). After spending half of my 10 year UPT commitment non-vol’d flying RPAs, I only recommend the guard to anyone. After seeing all of the older guys being tagged with shitty useless deployments to a war we haven’t figured out how to win for 17 years, there’s no way I’ll stay active duty.


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Second assignment, it’s when I figured out we really don’t want to or have a plan to win these wars and conflicts. 

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Have a healthy cynicism and keep your eyes open .... but don’t have a chip on your shoulder until you’ve earned it. 

You may be the unicorn ... the af may do right by you. It might be awesome with great leadership and bountiful opportunities to pursue a life of religious fulfillment all along the way. 

I’d hate to miss out on it because of the ramblings of bitter assholes on the Internet. 

 

(It probably won’t ever happen ... but it could. You could be the one!)

 

(Maybe.)

 

 

 

 

(But probably not.)

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I think it’s starting to happen earlier in the first ops assignment than we’d like to admit, at least among my peers.  We see that most older guys are set on getting out and naturally less involved in the squadron than they would be otherwise.  This pushes more work/burnout on the younger guys which only exacerbates the issue.  I would estimate that 60-75% of the JrCGOs are planning on the airlines at the end of their commitment, given a similar hiring environment. 

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It’s already happening. Besides, the newer retirement plan should help convince people to separate from AD even more so. 

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2 hours ago, ayz33 said:

I'm not even commissioned yet and i'm disillusioned, hence my urge to go guard

Ok. This is weird. You haven’t done anything yet. What exactly are you disallusioned with? 

Edited by Homestar
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The disillusionment I see happens when you’re a couple years into the ops world and the guys that are out killing the mission and are great bros get left in the dust by dudes who can barely fly but are amazing at excel. Where it really crushes your will into a fine powder is when your year group school selects are released and the same bros referenced earlier are all non-selects and the excel wizards are first look types. Not always the case, but it does happen a lot.

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23 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Ok. This is weird. You haven’t done anything yet. What exactly are you disallusioned with? 

I was prior E and I’ve spent enough time here on this forum to know the state of things, at least second hand. 

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Well, the age when most people go to UPT is the tail end of that "you can't tell me anything, I've got it all figured out" phase of life. So, I think it hits them twice as hard knowing that not only are they disillusioned, but everyone warned them beforehand and they still didn't listen.

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1 hour ago, ayz33 said:

I was prior E and I’ve spent enough time here on this forum to know the state of things, at least second hand. 

Well that makes sense then. I’d caution you against forming all your opinions based on the stuff you see here. 

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2 hours ago, Danger41 said:

The disillusionment I see happens when you’re a couple years into the ops world and the guys that are out killing the mission and are great bros get left in the dust by dudes who can barely fly but are amazing at excel. Where it really crushes your will into a fine powder is when your year group school selects are released and the same bros referenced earlier are all non-selects and the excel wizards are first look types. Not always the case, but it does happen a lot.

Valid. 

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No punks/future punks should form their opinion based on the metric shit ton of sport bitching that goes on here (I’m guilty). I spent 11 years AD and had a great time; the bullshit was there, but it’s not as bad as it seems here except in unique cases. And I say that not just because things worked for me, but because I can count on one hand the amount of legitimate “he got screwed” times that happened across 9 years in 4 fighter squadrons I was in + at least 6 others I was close with (i.e. the other FS on base), not to mention  talking to friends from all over different communities in the AF. I got out because the next 9 years was not going to work for my family, but the first half of your career when you’re not married/married with no kids/only have very young kids - the things we bitch about as Majs with 2 older kids and a wife are just not a big deal yet.

If you’re a young guy who wants to fly, you should consider the guard for sure, but don’t discount AD. Yeah you’ll probably want to punch around year 8-10, but there’s a good chance you’ll have a pretty good time for those 8-10 years. There’s also a chance you’re miserable, but I think that’s truly unlikely unless you are the most unlucky person in the world, or more likely, you’d still have a shitty attitude even if offered free blow jobs every day.

FWIW, several of my airline friends talk about how much the old captains bitch about how much the airlines suck now, the company is always screwing pilots, management is bullshit, the old days were millions of times better than now, etc. Sound familiar?

This is not to defend all the fuckery of the AF and the asshats who climb the ladder and are the root causes of many problems, but how bad do you want to fly awesome airplanes and shoot ISIS in the face/directly support those who do? If sport bitching Majs and some threat of dumb queep makes you second guess it, then go be a CFI, work your way to a regional, eventually get to a major and enjoy life.

 

Edited by brabus
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6 hours ago, donkey said:

...but I was curious how long it takes new studs/Lt's to become disillusioned and want to get out as well.   

deployment #1= “this is awesome!”

deployment #2= “cool, I got this”

deployment #3 = “I’m the old pro now”

deployment #4 = “well, here I am again” 

deployment #5+ = “ok WTF are we doing here!?” 

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I assigned within the last year. I always wanted to do 20 before UPT, however, I already decided I plan to get out when my commitment is up by the end of it. Many of the people in my UPT class who were once excited about being in the Air Force had absolutely no desire to stay in past the bare minimum by the end. I wish I had SA on the guard before I did ROTC. If I could trade in my wings to break this obligation I would. 

Edited by euser
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5 hours ago, MooseClub said:

deployment #1= “this is awesome!”

deployment #2= “cool, I got this”

deployment #3 = “I’m the old pro now”

deployment #4 = “well, here I am again” 

deployment #5+ = “ok WTF are we doing here!?” 

+1 for accuracy

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13 hours ago, Danger41 said:

The disillusionment I see happens when you’re a couple years into the ops world and the guys that are out killing the mission and are great bros get left in the dust by dudes who can barely fly but are amazing at excel. Where it really crushes your will into a fine powder is when your year group school selects are released and the same bros referenced earlier are all non-selects and the excel wizards are first look types. Not always the case, but it does happen a lot.

SHACk!  Been going on forever, I witnessed the same thing back in 1990 and was a big reason I left AD and joined the Reserves

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9 hours ago, euser said:

I assigned within the last year. I always wanted to do 20 before UPT, however, I already decided I plan to get out when my commitment is up by the end of it. Many of the people in my UPT class who were once excited about being in the Air Force had absolutely no desire to stay in past the bare minimum by the end. I wish I had SA on the guard before I did ROTC. If I could trade in my wings to break this obligation I would. 

You seriously regret flying military aircraft only a year after UPT? Sounds like you should never have gone to UPT in the first place. To say it’s all the AF’s fault you feel this way is not accepting responsibility for your own attitude. Honestly if you’re so jaded after this short of time, you would have been just as jaded in the guard.

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1 hour ago, brabus said:

You seriously regret flying military aircraft only a year after UPT? Sounds like you should never have gone to UPT in the first place. To say it’s all the AF’s fault you feel this way is not accepting responsibility for your own attitude. Honestly if you’re so jaded after this short of time, you would have been just as jaded in the guard.

I never claim for it to be all the Air Force’s fault. I have more important priorities outside the Air Force. I don’t think flying military aircraft is worth putting my family through hell, working so much the kid barely knows you, only being able to live in shitty locations where your spouse struggles to find a professional career of their own, and having absolutely no control of your life. When I have the 10 seconds every other flight that I’m not stressed about getting flight violated, killing someone, killing myself, or being bad at my job it can be enjoyable. My bitterness really started when I was forced 38’s under the guise of universal assignability and that I’ll still be able to get a C-5, and then dropped an 11F when the only thing lower was AFSOC airframes. Yes, I had AWACS above all fighters. Our T-1s even dropped a C-5. I understand a lot of people would give a lot to be an 11F, but I’m also in a community where all they do is shit on other MWSs that people work hard for because it doesn’t have an afterburner or pull 9G’s. Most of the guys my age care about nothing but killing people and going to war with no regard for life outside the military, it’s just not my goals. I could at least mitigate some family stressors if I was guard/reserve. On that note, I still do my job well whether I like it or not, but it is very draining. I still don’t have a desire to fly for the airlines though. 

Edited by euser
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I assigned within the last year. I always wanted to do 20 before UPT, however, I already decided I plan to get out when my commitment is up by the end of it. Many of the people in my UPT class who were once excited about being in the Air Force had absolutely no desire to stay in past the bare minimum by the end. I wish I had SA on the guard before I did ROTC. If I could trade in my wings to break this obligation I would. 


So you have less than 4 years TIS? Can you explain why you are so disillusioned?


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SOS is where I had my come-to-Jesus moment(s) with the Air Force.  My career has been all down hill from Montgomery.

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