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On 1/16/2020 at 8:26 PM, Gazmo said:
On 1/16/2020 at 5:55 PM, nunya said:
Holy crap, I had to go look up your 190 pay scale.  Didn't realize it was so much lower than everything else!

Don't get me started. They are worse than Jet Blue's pay rates. Of course 1st year pay is the same for all, but year two stays the same as first year pay. Not sure WTF they were thinking. Needless to say, almost everyone 6 months out of INDOC is withheld from something else with a better pay scale. Ironically, some of the highest paid CA's in the company are in the E190. Other than that, I really don't have anything bad to say about the airplane and I have flown with a great bunch of CA's. Living in-base on Reserve on it has been pretty awesome.

Hey at least you’re higher than Moxy’s E195 and A220-300 rates. Holy hell. They make AA’s E190 rates look like WB rates in comparison. 112-155 and 128-180, respectively. That’s for the left seat.

Edited by pilot

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This got me interested so I took a quick beak.  Our (DAL) 2nd year E190/CRJ900 Capt rate is $168/hr and 12 year rate is $182.  However the E195 rates are $198 and $214 respectively.  My rate as a 6th year 330FO is $208/hr..I know which one I would bid lol.  

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Slight thread derail, For airline applications...availability date...should I put my palace chase date (palace chase NOT approved yet) or my solid end of ADSC date. 
hoping for 1 June PC and wanna get apps in ASAP!
soliciting opinions, I’ve heard multiple opinions on both dates from squadron bro’s. 
 


Bashi Bro,
If you are asking for more than 6 months I would list your ADSC availability until it gets approved. If you are asking for 6 months or less, I think you are safe to list the requested PC date. AFPC can approve 6 months off without sending it up for adjudication to SAF/PC. That has been a very high approval rate lately. More than 6 months, too many other factors come into play to have any idea what the board will do (career field manning, commander concur/non concur etc)

As always YMMV and have a solid answer to back up your stated availability date in an interview. If you are asked about it and tap dance too much around it, that might not go well.
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Bashi Bro,
If you are asking for more than 6 months I would list your ADSC availability until it gets approved. If you are asking for 6 months or less, I think you are safe to list the requested PC date. AFPC can approve 6 months off without sending it up for adjudication to SAF/PC. That has been a very high approval rate lately. More than 6 months, too many other factors come into play to have any idea what the board will do (career field manning, commander concur/non concur etc)

As always YMMV and have a solid answer to back up your stated availability date in an interview. If you are asked about it and tap dance too much around it, that might not go well.
AFPC can approve IF everyone recommends approval all the way up. I had all recommend disapproval then SAF/PC made the smart decision to let me have parole anyways.

Being a guy that was in your shoes less than a year ago, I would recommend putting your ADSC then adjusting your dates. If you started the PC process early enough you'll have plenty of time on the market after its approved to get picked up. If not, get PCS'd and give the Guard a couple months work. For a data point, I was approved early September, adjusted my avail (now 1 Jan) and got hired by AA late November. I start Tuesday so I barely had enough time to swear in and get a new CAC.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Baseops Network mobile app

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I know this has been discussed before, but I've talked with some bros and gotten some wildly different answers. What would you put as "availability date" on your app? The no shit date you will be available, or try to game it a bit? I was talking to some guys at a IFF squadron and they were all putting like 6 months before they could actually get out. That seemed a bit ballsy to me.

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48 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

I know this has been discussed before, but I've talked with some bros and gotten some wildly different answers. What would you put as "availability date" on your app? The no shit date you will be available, or try to game it a bit? I was talking to some guys at a IFF squadron and they were all putting like 6 months before they could actually get out. That seemed a bit ballsy to me.

Ask those same bros how they're feeling after Pilot Hiring calls them for a start date 4 months before they're available and they have to explain why they lied on their app.  Just don't do it.  The interview can be an enjoyable experience.  It won't be if you need to say, "Well, about that availability date..." And don't think you'll fool them with jargon Fairchild-style. At least someone interviewing you will be ex-military.

Seniority is everything, but with everyone hiring like they are and will be, you stand to lose a whole helluva lot and stand to gain very little.

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And every military guy that manages to get away with it makes it that much harder for the next mil guy to get called or get hired. 

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Just put the no-shit date you can get up in the morning and not have to go to the squadron anymore. Let the airline call you when they are ready to call you. I know AA was interviewing applicants still on Active Duty 6 months out from their availability date and giving them CJO's to frontload their hiring because they knew they'd most likely get offers somewhere else if they didn't.

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Don't play games with your availability. Until your PC is approved, then your date of availability should be the end of your ADSC (be it PCS, UPT, or GI Bill Transfer). When your PC is approved THEN move your DoS.

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On 1/17/2020 at 11:08 AM, Guardian said:

Evil Eagle. What airline? Stats?

Sorry, I didn't see that for a few days.  


Delta

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Agree on the availability date.  A bro of mine was getting out, I told him not to dick around with it; he did.  Delta called and said "congrats your indoc date is XXX day."  "yeah, I was hoping to change that to after YYY day."  "If you want to work at Delta, we'll see you on XXX. Goodbye".

 

He flies for AA now.  

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I realize this question may be highly subjective based on a lot of factors, but is there a pecking order amongst the majors? 

Edited by Bigred
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3 minutes ago, EvilEagle said:

Agree on the availability date.  A bro of mine was getting out, I told him not to dick around with it; he did.  Delta called and said "congrats your indoc date is XXX day."  "yeah, I was hoping to change that to after YYY day."  "If you want to work at Delta, we'll see you on XXX. Goodbye".

 

He flies for AA now.  

damn! now thats clarity right there thanks!

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1 hour ago, Bigred said:

I realize this question may be highly subjective based on a lot of factors, but is there a pecking order amongst the majors? 

It usually involves where you want to live as a primary driver. 

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2 hours ago, Bigred said:

I realize this question may be highly subjective based on a lot of factors, but is there a pecking order amongst the majors? 

"The best" fluctuates as contracts change. Also part of what is considered "the best" is where your seniority will be for the duration of your expected career, and in what base/equipment/seat. There is no perfect contract at any airline. A contract governs everything from pay, work rules, profit sharing, sick, vacation, trip construction, medical, insurance, scope, hotels, and just about everything else that can affect your pay/QOL/time off.  Regarding seniority, movement is dependent on 2 things: growth and retirements. Only one of those is certain: retirements. Growth can be halted overnight (or be negative if planes are parked overnight if say a 9/11, recession, or fuel price spike happens). Airlines are a for profit company...when planes get parked overnight, pilots are on the street (furloughed). So financial health of a company also matters in that equation, to some degree.

Delta has hired around 5k pilots since 2014. A lot of those are younger guys, and you'll never be senior to them if you are getting in now. UA has hired less than that, and AA has hired even less. Also, AA has hired a lot of Envoy flows who waited 15-18 years to flow, and they will age out sooner than many off the street hires. In other words, a lot of their hires have been older than the guys Delta has hired. The result of that is AA has the most retirements over the next 10-15 years, so movement there will be the most rapid. United is close behind them with retirements. Then comes Delta, then the rest (I think FDX, then UPS). SWA/JB/the others all have a lot fewer retirements. This means slower movement...although likely more growth at JB/Spirit/Frontier which kind of makes up for the lack of retirements, assuming the growth isn't interrupted. Also of note, Delta JVs out a lot of their wide body flying, so AA/UA have a lot more own metal wide body flying, thus more widebodies, thus more lucrative WB jobs in both seats, which will affect relative seniority, even on the NB side. A lot of guys will choose WB FO over NB CA. 

Overall, I'd say Delta's contract is the best, followed by United, then AA. But each has strengths and weaknesses. Delta's profit sharing is insane (16.6% for 2019...extra 2 months of pay). Their sick accrual is also leaps and bounds above everyone else. United has airport reserve (fk that). AA has lots of weak points. But all 3 are in negotiations, and those things are all on the table and could shift. Right now Doug Parker at AA told the pilots they have $150mil to make whatever improvements they want...that's chump change for 15,500 pilots given how far behind their contract is. United has Scott Kirby at the helm hellbent on more/larger RJs. Delta mgmt just filed for mediation, seemingly far apart with DALPA's asks. Right now, the financials of Delta support the most gains (or at least keeping the best contract), followed by UAL, followed by YUGELY debt-ridden AA. Doug says he will pay all that debt down. I'll believe it when I see it...but I doubt he gives AA pilots a contract anywhere near Delta's. But their seniority movement and bases may work better for people who live in say Dallas Charlotte or Miami. 

All 3 have fairly quick upgrades (albeit in less desirable bases), unheard of seniority movement/hiring/retirements, and are all likely going to trade off who "the best" is over the next 10/20/30 years. None has ever stayed "the best" forever.

Southwest and JB have never furloughed, never gone through a bankruptcy, and have always remained profitable, even when the legacies hemorrhaged money, furloughed, went through BK, and all came out of BK with garbage concessionary contracts. 

The pecking order is this: go to who calls first. If 2 or 3 call, go to whichever one has a domicile you want to live at. If you live in a domicile of another airline you want to work at, keep applying there. Commuting to the airline with the best contract is worse than driving to work under the worst contract. 

For anyone considering entering the airline industry, or anyone who is in the airline industry and hasn't read it, I urge you to read "Hard Landing." It gives a nice history of the industry, all the players, and how all the airlines came to be. It gives a good history of who the biggest and best airline has been throughout history. 

In closing, there is a pecking order, but it changes. You won't know where you will end up in that pecking order until you retire. In 20-30 years from now when you retire from the airlines, the landscape will have changed tremendously, as will the pecking order. Best advice: make the best decision for you and your family now, sock money away and live like an FO even when you upgrade, hold on, and enjoy the ride. The only constant in the airlines is change. A lot of the bros getting into the industry in the last 5ish years only know the good times. It will not be good forever. When it isn't good, the pecking order of which airlines are the best tends to change. Delta is printing money right now with unprecedented profitability. But if you got hired there in the early 90s you got furloughed, went through a bankruptcy, lost a pension, took a few pay cuts, and likely never saw the left seat. But if you were hired there 5 years ago, you would be a NB Captain or WB FO today. 

 

TL;DR:

Best contracts: Delta, United, American

Best movement ahead: American, United, Delta

Best financial health: Delta, United, American

Edited by pilot
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One could argue UAL is an unknown due to Scott Kirby.  The guy is brilliant.  He understands the competition... and my understanding is that he probably has a bit of drive to crush AA for personal reasons.  He also knows a lot of their secrets.  

If he doesn't get sideways with the unions, there is a lot of potential with him.  A lot.  Many think he's the smartest leader in the industry.  

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On 8/6/2019 at 7:14 PM, BADFNZ said:

How early is too early to take mil leave?  Is there such a thing?

I got hired at a major and will start training right when I begin terminal leave.  I also Palace Chased but won't have a chance to in-process with my unit until after airline training.  Would it be frowned upon to finish training, then immediately drop mil leave to head up to my AFRC unit to in-process?  Is there an unwritten limit on how much mil leave I should take in this instance considering I'd still be on IOE and probation?

Went back several pages for this, but wanted to run this scenario by the group.

I am planning to leave AD and go be a Reservist UPT IP. I'm not and never have been qual'd in a white jet so I'd need to do PIT and seasoning (3 months). Basically, I'm planning on 7 months of mil leave. Talking with the bro network, I am planning on doing that after consolidation...good plan? Bad plan? 

My thoughts are to get the line number, indoc, training, and consolidation done but not the first full year of probation. I know that legally you can do it, but I don't want to cause any problems for myself or other mil guys making the switch. Planning this with Delta or United, if that matters. Thoughts?

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2 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Went back several pages for this, but wanted to run this scenario by the group.

I am planning to leave AD and go be a Reservist UPT IP. I'm not and never have been qual'd in a white jet so I'd need to do PIT and seasoning (3 months). Basically, I'm planning on 7 months of mil leave. Talking with the bro network, I am planning on doing that after consolidation...good plan? Bad plan? 

My thoughts are to get the line number, indoc, training, and consolidation done but not the first full year of probation. I know that legally you can do it, but I don't want to cause any problems for myself or other mil guys making the switch. Planning this with Delta or United, if that matters. Thoughts?

A lot of guys are doing this now.  The guys I know that work at the mil desks for the airlines think this is the min-run scenario to keep you off the bad-boy list.  Getting off probation fully is the brass ring, but getting through consolidation is where most places won't give you the hairy eye-ball.  To me that makes no sense at all - if you are out more than a couple of months you have to go back through training.  They say training takes 2 years of flying the line to recoup the cost.  Not sure why they would "like it" for people to come out for 100 hours then bounce.  Oh well, just another thing I don't understand about the airline.

 

FWIW, I did the full year - got off probation in about 8 months (@ DAL it's 400 hours of flying or 1 year on the line).  I wanted to be off of probation but I also wanted to know if I'd hate it or not.  That way I'd have 5 years of leave to find something better.  I ended up not hating it at all.  I retire this fall and can't wait to go back.  

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I got selected for ACSC in res and took off for that only after about 8 months out of training at DAL.  I got a call from the chief pilot congratulating me on selection for command and staff and how it was a big deal to be going to such a prestigious school.  Got back, requaled, finished probation and haven't looked back (nor gotten any other calls or dirty looks about taking leave during my first year). 

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21 hours ago, pilot said:

"The best" fluctuates as contracts change. Also part of what is considered "the best" is where your seniority will be for the duration of your expected career, and in what base/equipment/seat. There is no perfect contract at any airline. A contract governs everything from pay, work rules, profit sharing, sick, vacation, trip construction, medical, insurance, scope, hotels, and just about everything else that can affect your pay/QOL/time off.  Regarding seniority, movement is dependent on 2 things: growth and retirements. Only one of those is certain: retirements. Growth can be halted overnight (or be negative if planes are parked overnight if say a 9/11, recession, or fuel price spike happens). Airlines are a for profit company...when planes get parked overnight, pilots are on the street (furloughed). So financial health of a company also matters in that equation, to some degree.

Delta has hired around 5k pilots since 2014. A lot of those are younger guys, and you'll never be senior to them if you are getting in now. UA has hired less than that, and AA has hired even less. Also, AA has hired a lot of Envoy flows who waited 15-18 years to flow, and they will age out sooner than many off the street hires. In other words, a lot of their hires have been older than the guys Delta has hired. The result of that is AA has the most retirements over the next 10-15 years, so movement there will be the most rapid. United is close behind them with retirements. Then comes Delta, then the rest (I think FDX, then UPS). SWA/JB/the others all have a lot fewer retirements. This means slower movement...although likely more growth at JB/Spirit/Frontier which kind of makes up for the lack of retirements, assuming the growth isn't interrupted. Also of note, Delta JVs out a lot of their wide body flying, so AA/UA have a lot more own metal wide body flying, thus more widebodies, thus more lucrative WB jobs in both seats, which will affect relative seniority, even on the NB side. A lot of guys will choose WB FO over NB CA. 

Overall, I'd say Delta's contract is the best, followed by United, then AA. But each has strengths and weaknesses. Delta's profit sharing is insane (16.6% for 2019...extra 2 months of pay). Their sick accrual is also leaps and bounds above everyone else. United has airport reserve (fk that). AA has lots of weak points. But all 3 are in negotiations, and those things are all on the table and could shift. Right now Doug Parker at AA told the pilots they have $150mil to make whatever improvements they want...that's chump change for 15,500 pilots given how far behind their contract is. United has Scott Kirby at the helm hellbent on more/larger RJs. Delta mgmt just filed for mediation, seemingly far apart with DALPA's asks. Right now, the financials of Delta support the most gains (or at least keeping the best contract), followed by UAL, followed by YUGELY debt-ridden AA. Doug says he will pay all that debt down. I'll believe it when I see it...but I doubt he gives AA pilots a contract anywhere near Delta's. But their seniority movement and bases may work better for people who live in say Dallas Charlotte or Miami. 

All 3 have fairly quick upgrades (albeit in less desirable bases), unheard of seniority movement/hiring/retirements, and are all likely going to trade off who "the best" is over the next 10/20/30 years. None has ever stayed "the best" forever.

Southwest and JB have never furloughed, never gone through a bankruptcy, and have always remained profitable, even when the legacies hemorrhaged money, furloughed, went through BK, and all came out of BK with garbage concessionary contracts. 

The pecking order is this: go to who calls first. If 2 or 3 call, go to whichever one has a domicile you want to live at. If you live in a domicile of another airline you want to work at, keep applying there. Commuting to the airline with the best contract is worse than driving to work under the worst contract. 

For anyone considering entering the airline industry, or anyone who is in the airline industry and hasn't read it, I urge you to read "Hard Landing." It gives a nice history of the industry, all the players, and how all the airlines came to be. It gives a good history of who the biggest and best airline has been throughout history. 

In closing, there is a pecking order, but it changes. You won't know where you will end up in that pecking order until you retire. In 20-30 years from now when you retire from the airlines, the landscape will have changed tremendously, as will the pecking order. Best advice: make the best decision for you and your family now, sock money away and live like an FO even when you upgrade, hold on, and enjoy the ride. The only constant in the airlines is change. A lot of the bros getting into the industry in the last 5ish years only know the good times. It will not be good forever. When it isn't good, the pecking order of which airlines are the best tends to change. Delta is printing money right now with unprecedented profitability. But if you got hired there in the early 90s you got furloughed, went through a bankruptcy, lost a pension, took a few pay cuts, and likely never saw the left seat. But if you were hired there 5 years ago, you would be a NB Captain or WB FO today. 

 

TL;DR:

Best contracts: Delta, United, American

Best movement ahead: American, United, Delta

Best financial health: Delta, United, American

Really good, comprehensive summary.  I have heard bits and pieces of what you said above, but that's a great report.  I have had more than one jumpseater shoot the shit with me about the above issues, and yes, it depends on the contract, relative movement, etc.  Seems the SW guys (and cargo FedEx/UPS) guys are real happy with their lives and their company.  I had a few United guys complement Delta on how well Delta actually wants to run an airline. 

So, yeah, I personally would prioritize if the company had a base near home (the wife's home, that is).  Non-commuting is a life changer.  2nd, I would try for an "old" company with the quickest retirements coming - AA, then United.  Third I would look at some of the other things like pay, QOL, etc. 

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11 hours ago, JS said:

I got selected for ACSC in res and took off for that only after about 8 months out of training at DAL.  I got a call from the chief pilot congratulating me on selection for command and staff and how it was a big deal to be going to such a prestigious school.  Got back, requaled, finished probation and haven't looked back (nor gotten any other calls or dirty looks about taking leave during my first year). 

 

not-sure-if-serious-gif.gif

 

But seriously, glad you had a good experience.  I've never had any issues other than just trying to get the mil leave lady to understand my combo of orders/pay cards when returning from a deployment.  My first time out was for a deployment at 8 months on property but I was off probation.  Just got a call asking if I understood how the whole process worked and they pointed out where to look when I returned.  

Edited by SocialD

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17 hours ago, JS said:

I got selected for ACSC in res and took off for that only after about 8 months out of training at DAL.

I turned down IDE in residence in order to separate from AD a few years ago... I can’t imagine taking the pay and QoL cut necessary to drop mil leave, move my family to cesspool Montgomery, AL for a year, and attend a fake indoctrination school after a couple years at my airline job.  It would be a serious decline in both compensation and time off.

Was it difficult to take the program seriously?

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I thought it was a decent program, then again, I'm kind of book nerdy like that and enjoy discussing war and politics with other smart people. 

I went in 2015 before we had our contract and while I was on first-year pay working weekends and holidays.  It was more than a little bump in both pay and QOL to go to ACSC vs endure first 1 and year 1.5 pay and seniority for me.  Also, it helped that i lived somewhat locally to Montgomery and didn't have to move the family the family there. 

Now, I would not even contemplate war college or anything long like that because it would definitely be a cut in pay and QOL at this point.  But ACSC worked for me at the time. 

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