AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[FlyinGrunt]

The irony of Lawman's survivability discussion is that Army Aviation tried to prove they could play A-10. Najaf - Mar 24, 2003. 32 AH-64s vs everybody on a deep strike mission. Results? 1 Apache crew captured, a shitload shot up, and the rest were forced to RTB. Mission failure. No SA-22s or SA-24s here. Or 2S6. Etc.

Everyone's got their role. The AC-130 is not an A-10 is not an AH-64. Let's be grown ups here - admit that we all bring something different to the table that helps the good guys get out of trouble and the bad guys rest in pieces.

[pcola]

Rainman...chomping at the bit to roll in to this fight.

[Day Man]

Rainman...chomping at the bit to roll in to this fight.

he hasn't been on in 9 months...

[Lawman]

Lawman:

My question was directed at you. I've seen what the hog can do with ccip solutions, hars and iron sights, and I've seen hog pilots shoot with all 3 of them with the same level of accuracy. I guess it was a slightly loaded question, I was curious if you could still argue a 9 sq meter accuracy at your ranges without having nasa spaceship computers doing the aiming, since that seems to be the jut of your "the hog is a terrible platform" argument.

'Cause having to rely on all that stuff to get weapons off the jet would be a hell of a hindrance to your platforms effectiveness, wouldn't you agree?

And it's not thy hard to make a weapons processor, Abrams has the same deal does that somehow make it a less effective tank then the M60 it replaced. If having that kind of stuff is a liability then we wouldn't be the platform with the highest effectiveness rate for aerial fires.

But your going beyond intent. I never said the A-10 was a shitty platform, I said it may be time to look at replacing the platform. The flip side to the we must always have this gun that you guys treat like its the Death Star is why are other platforms able to do CAS without it. Why does the Harrier (albeit with a list of other shortcomings in life) or the ATARS Hornet get to be to the Marines superior platforms for CAS in their service. One doesn't have a gun and the other doesn't carry it that often. Are they so inferior that the last 30 years of smart munitions development and sensor fused weapons cant offset some of that disparity? And no my gun isn't the mega death ray either.

Grunts point on survivability is exactly mine. The Longbows charge of the light brigade was our wakeup call. We got our asses handed to us in 03 because of the need to validate a doctrine. "Deep attacked worked in 91 against the radar sites it'll work here," and did a piss poor planning and execution of it because it had worked at NTC. People (old warrants) in 1st Cav rallied against doing it, and lost when the old man said go do it despite the protests. And then we sent in the A model battalions which had better results.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Lawman

[Spur38]

A-29 Super Tucano?

[Stitch]

A-29 Super Tucano?

Naaaa.... lets just weaponize the RV-8. Sure it's a homebuilt, just have the kits delivered to depot, built and modify the airframes "in house" as required. We could out fit three or four wings of these things for the cost of a single F-35.

[JarheadBoom]

Why does the Harrier (albeit with a list of other shortcomings in life) or the ATARS Hornet get to be to the Marines superior platforms for CAS in their service. One doesn't have a gun and the other doesn't carry it that often.

[drifting out of my lane]

Because, right or wrong, Marines trust fellow Marines more than they trust anyone else.

[easing back into my own lane]

[busdriver]

Why does everyone confuse/mix accuracy and dispersion? It's annoying.

[Lawman]

Naaaa.... lets just weaponize the RV-8. Sure it's a homebuilt, just have the kits delivered to depot, built and modify the airframes "in house" as required. We could out fit three or four wings of these things for the cost of a single F-35.

Fast forward 10 years after green lighting the program.

Aircraft still not in production, costs 4 times what it was supposed to, was delayed over and over again to add something new, and when we try to kill it the company sues.

[spaceman]

Fast forward 10 years after green lighting the program.

Aircraft still not in production, costs 4 times what it was supposed to, was delayed over and over again to add something new, and when we try to kill it the company sues.

Dudes are spending 10+ years building that thing and spending way more than they originally intended all over the world already. Sounds like a no brainer!

[Lawman]

Good it'll fit right in with LCS, Comanche, Crusader, NLos, etc etc etc......

I'm convinced we didn't give awards to the Super Hornet program because it was so amazing a program, but because everybody else punted it into the bleachers so they were all that's left.

[theSituation]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/26/kelly-ayotte-deborah-lee-james_n_3996391.html?ref=topbar

[FallingOsh]

Hoss, for ######ing Christ dude. Everybody gets replaced. The Sandy guys said exactly what ever hog guy is saying when it was their turn. The 111 guys said it about the mudhen, the 14s said it about the Rhino. The A-10 will someday go to the boneyard, the question posed is are you so irreplaceable either directly or by augmentation to make it worth it to keep you or start that process. If the whole world blah, blah, blah.

The problem isn't the fact that we'll be replaced. It's that the program is being cancelled before there is a viable replacement ready to fly. I'd be first in line to fly a new CAS platform. There isn't one. You, your ego, and you're perfectly tuned gun should be upset that your Army bros won't have a dedicated CAS platform to call. I can't figure out why you're running round and round with this other than a simple inferiority complex. I'm sure you've seen CAS jets miss. I've seen CAS your platform completely embarrass themselves while spraying bullets around like some kind of happy ending. Does that mean you're all terrible at everything all the time? Does it mean you always miss? From what I've seen, yes, but is that true in your eyes? I doubt it. Ease the fuck up and go ask a handful of your Army infantry bros what they think of the hawg going away. Nobody gives a fuck what you or any other pilots (fixed or sling wing) thinks. It's about the dudes on the ground we want to go home safely. Take your penis envy elsewhere.

Why does everyone confuse/mix accuracy and dispersion? It's annoying.

Thank you. Beat me to it.

[sputnik]

So where the hell are we on the light attack anyway? Is the AF buying the Tocano?

[Lawman]

The problem isn't the fact that we'll be replaced. It's that the program is being cancelled before there is a viable replacement ready to fly. I'd be first in line to fly a new CAS platform. There isn't one. You, your ego, and you're perfectly tuned gun should be upset that your Army bros won't have a dedicated CAS platform to call. Ease the ###### up and go ask a handful of your Army infantry bros what they think of the hawg going away. Nobody gives a ###### what you or any other pilots (fixed or sling wing) thinks. It's about the dudes on the ground we want to go home safely.

No I dont think you guys get it. The world will keep turning with or without the Hawg. There isnt some celebration every time the AMR cell publishes the CAS/Fires portion of an Op Order with the illation of "oh thank god we got A-10s." Your drinking your own Koolaid if guys under fire would care whether it was a Viper, a 15E, or a Sopwith Camel providing them with Air delivered Fires they just want something. Nobody is ever gonna see a situation where a fixed/rotory wing with guns checks in to a TIC and they say "awww no dude its cool we really need the A-10 to do this job."

Maybe its the difference in how Army Aviators come into their jobs and the cultural difference between the service, but 80% of the Aviators in our community are prior enlisted dudes that went Warrant. A good size chunk of those guys (especially in the last decade) are Combat Arms (Infantry/Armor/SF/etc) who have actual experience. So its not hard for me to go talk to them about what they think, 3 of them work in my office. Some of them in my battalion are your biggest critics. We are more concerned that your actually able to have the money to come do coordinated excersices with us rather than have platforms with specific jobs that have never coordinated with each other because the money was used to keep different color horses in the stable.

[BCan]

Lawman,

Some of your points are valid...but some of your points are off the mark.

First, let's all agree that OIF/OEF isn't CAS in the classical sense. Sure, when the bullets start flying...it is a fight...and any aircraft with weapons is better than nothing. The majority of the work is TGP NAI scans with some bombs on coords...and mostly bullshit targets. And there ARE PLENTY OF AIRPLANES to fill the ATO.

Second, you can't say the A-10 isn't specifically requested....because they are....hundreds of times in a given year on the 1972s. When the remarks read "Request fixed-wing with 30mm, fwd firing, ability to illuminate, TGP..." that is an A-10.

As a former Army infantry type, with ALO stink, now old A-10 dude...here is what I think.

You build an airplane with a purpose, give the pilots one mission set to focus on...they get good at that mission. Most would agree. The A-10 is hands down the best CAS fixed wing platform on the planet. Period. I'm talking CAS...moving battlefield...FEBA/FLOT/FISL, PAAs, etc. If you asked any AF pilot what platform they would recommend...it would be an A-10. It isn't a result of A-10 pilots having bigger dicks (although I do), being better pilots, etc....it is the result of an airplane designed for the purpose and the pilots being proficient in the mission. If you asked me if I wanted a viper, strike, B1 or Apache in a true CAS fight...it's obviously an Apache...cause you know the mission, you understand the gnd/cc's scheme of Mvr, it is your bread and butter. With that said, let's say we scrap the A-10....if we go toe-to-toe in a CAS fight...how many F-16s, F-15s, F-22s, F-35s do you think are going to be apportioned/allocated to CAS on the ATO? There lies the problem. The AF convinces you they will still be able to provide dedicated CAS in a full-up war...after all, they all supported you over the last decade, right? I ain't belivin it. I doubt Army leadership believes they will see many F-35s dedicated to CAS. Lots of my bros think the AF doesn't care about CAS...not necessarily. I'd say they just care a lot more about strategic shit.

Last point: Why there is little talk of the army having organic fixed wing CAS doesn't compute with me. I know some agreement was signed....unsign it. It's been my belief for years that the A-10 would be a better airplane if the army owned it. I was even more convinced after seeing the avionics of a AH-64. I'm all about taking the Air Force out of the equation, have the ground commander own the iron and working directly for the gnd/CC. Maybe then the A-10s could train with the army...because Lawman is right here...we rarely do. This would also end the re-occurring AF debate on dedicated CAS.

[Lawman]

No I'm with you on this Bcan, but this problem is like 90% skills training/10% platform. But that's just it, no matter what comes out on the CAS brief the only real concern is gaps in coverage. No mission has ever been stopped and ruled out because we asked for 30mm frontal fire, whatever and got told "all I've got available is viper and hornet." Caveat*Not true with the Special Ops guys but that's it's own weird animal. Seeing what stack they require as a minimum and then being told on a conventional day I was supporting half of RC-E with 2 Apaches is kinda insane.

We get into a no shit fight where the Air Force isn't giving the GCC the air he asked for because they'd rather task the aircraft they do have to do strategic shit then the generals will have it out and the Army guy that's usually in charge will evaluate priority. Point is if we spend the next 10 years waiting and keeping A-10 at the suffering of money to train with it then really how is it doing the job any better than any other platform who due to budgetary reasons said "###### it we'll do it live." Doesn't matter what they are flying off the IP with if the guy is fumble ######ing it in the cockpit he's just as useless in a Hawg as any other plane.

Organic CAS never gonna happen. And frankly we wouldn't know what to do with it. Anybody that's been to joint firepower in my community says the same thing. If you gave us something like the A-29/Hawg/Harrier what we did with it wouldn't resemble what you would. Remember we don't view the Apache as a CAS platform, I'm a maneuver element same as Abrams or Cav Scouts or any other organic fires platform. We operate with a much looser set of rules than you do, the flip side is I own my bullets whether I'm terminally controlled or not. You guys might like the sound of being able to release ordnance etc based simply on overall commanders intent, but there's some nasty hang ups to it too.

[FallingOsh]

No I dont think you guys get it. The world will keep turning with or without the Hawg. There isnt some celebration every time the AMR cell publishes the CAS/Fires portion of an Op Order with the illation of "oh thank god we got A-10s." Your drinking your own Koolaid if guys under fire would care whether it was a Viper, a 15E, or a Sopwith Camel providing them with Air delivered Fires they just want something. Nobody is ever gonna see a situation where a fixed/rotory wing with guns checks in to a TIC and they say "awww no dude its cool we really need the A-10 to do this job."

Maybe its the difference in how Army Aviators come into their jobs and the cultural difference between the service, but 80% of the Aviators in our community are prior enlisted dudes that went Warrant. A good size chunk of those guys (especially in the last decade) are Combat Arms (Infantry/Armor/SF/etc) who have actual experience. So its not hard for me to go talk to them about what they think, 3 of them work in my office. Some of them in my battalion are your biggest critics. We are more concerned that your actually able to have the money to come do coordinated excersices with us rather than have platforms with specific jobs that have never coordinated with each other because the money was used to keep different color horses in the stable.

You're right. My bad. The GAU-8 is inaccurate, the A-10 isn't a good CAS platform, and Army guys will be just as happy with the F-35 as they were the hawg. Thank God you were enlisted so you can know everything.

So where the hell are we on the light attack anyway? Is the AF buying the Tocano?

Not for us.

[Fast_N_Low135]

The Scorpion Flies

Kind of impressive that it went from the drawing board to its first flight in just under two years. It's ugly as sin, thus it would make a perfect replacement for the hawg regardless of capabilities.

[Champ Kind]

Looks JUST ugly enough to replace the Hawg should it suffer its untimely demise.

Now if only it could take off from a short deck boat.... F-35B problem solved.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Champ Kind

[HU&W]

Pretty ugly, but I'd gladly fly it. It needs a gun.

[DEVIL]

That thing looks ridiculous

[Swanee]

Now if only it could take off from a short deck boat.... F-35B problem solved.

[xaarman]

Uuuuuugggggggggggglllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Hodor]

I'd fly it