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AF Light Air Support Aircraft

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16 hours ago, ClearedHot said:
Not smart...why buy a foreign built airplane when there are far better options.  I sure hope we never fall out of favor with Brazil and they turn of the supply train.


Or just buy the best airplane

If the AF can’t figure out that the Scorpion is the best overall system for this mission and going forward into the future with its built on flexibility and growth potential; then it probably should not have the LAAR mission

Edited by Clark Griswold
grammar fixes

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11 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

Isn't Pilatus (PC-12/U-28) a Swiss company?

Yup, also mainly a civilian plane so a bit harder to turn of the parts train because of a political issue.  The U-28 community has some of the most dedicated Americans I've ever met, but I think most of them would acknowledge they need a better plane to accomplish their mission (faster, can lift more, RANGE).  Interestingly, Scorpion would be an incredible fit as a replacement.

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Just to stir the discussion:

Sukhoi Su-80 with a proposed (not sure if actually fielded Su-80PT (patrol/transport) ) variant for the Russian/Kazakhstan Border Guards and a few others, looks like it would be ideal with some mods for COIN / LIC:

Su-80.JPG?width=1080

su80pt.jpg

References for the PT variants (caveat emptor) but some data on how the FSU have thought this capability (or one closely related to it):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-80

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/civil/su-80/

https://testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/s/80/pt/s80pt_e.htm

http://cosmopark.ru/s80.html

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1 hour ago, Day Man said:
OV-10-Bronco.png


Definitely inspired by

There’s 0.69% chance of acquiring that airframe but a successor to the MC-12, U-28, RC-26, RC-12, etc all based on the Emb-120/Saab 340/Beech 1900 platform is the right mix for a 1-2-3 punch to delivering Persistent Stare - ISR/Light Strike.

New platform manned ISR + LAAR

Couple that with an all Reaper ER fleet and you can whack a mole more effectively

Edited by Clark Griswold

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Just read we used F-22’s to bomb poppy processing facilities in Afghanistan...I’d say we could do better at this problem.

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1 hour ago, di1630 said:

Just read we used F-22’s to bomb poppy processing facilities in Afghanistan...I’d say we could do better at this problem.

Facilities?  You mean the roof of some mud hut?

4c15.jpg

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8 hours ago, di1630 said:

Just read we used F-22’s to bomb poppy processing facilities in Afghanistan...I’d say we could do better at this problem.

Yup

The economic exchange factor between belligerents is always relevant, even more so in COIN / LIC.

If we plan to keep running these marathons, we need a sustainability plan as much as we need an exit plan as these things will likely run 15-20 years to kill, build and suppress the enemy long enough to "win". 

 

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Yup
The economic exchange factor between belligerents is always relevant, even more so in COIN / LIC.
If we plan to keep running these marathons, we need a sustainability plan as much as we need an exit plan as these things will likely run 15-20 years to kill, build and suppress the enemy long enough to "win". 
 
There's far too much money to be made by the defense industry to just stop using the most expensive means available to attack our enemies. The expense is seen as an advantage by them, not a problem. It's why these wars have persisted for 16 years and will never end. Destruction of surplus also ensures the taxpaying population never gets too comfortable to start questioning why there is no exit strategy.

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On November 19, 2017 at 6:09 AM, ClearedHot said:

Yup, also mainly a civilian plane so a bit harder to turn of the parts train because of a political issue.  The U-28 community has some of the most dedicated Americans I've ever met, but I think most of them would acknowledge they need a better plane to accomplish their mission (faster, can lift more, RANGE).  Interestingly, Scorpion would be an incredible fit as a replacement.

Sprint speed to on-station, nice to have.  Would have to come without impact to on-station time.

Twin Engine, would be very welcome.....can't say enough good things about the PT6 and the maint folks that kept them turning.  It's hard to believe that some of the original tails are still going (I remember when 419 showed up on the ramp day 1). 

I would rather have endurance on station, in a tube like a King Air-ish situation.... where I can be 1) running things pre-infil to post-exfil or 2)  long term find/follow/fix, with a good assortment of radios/sensors/displays and a crew that can handle them/transfer tasking in between.  Two seat Scorpion/AT-6/(insert sexy LSA product here) would complement that, but not replace (IMO). 

Of course this is based off of my experience flying with the initial first/second (and some third) groups of U-28 guys/gals driving my Navy ass around (and some other NSA assets).  ISR is an art, and I made an attempt to Bob Ross the shit out of it.  Having the proper workspace to practice the art is important.   I would drop my civi job in a heartbeat/drag my balls through broken glass to go out and do it again. 

ATIS

Edited by ATIS
Spelling idiot

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https://warontherocks.com/2017/11/false-promise-oa-x/ Don't agree with the author's premise but valid critiques are raised, worth a read.

 

 

If they can put Army Rotary Wing in the airspace, they can put a low tech CAS solution in the airspace. And we did....been there, got the T-shirt. Put CAP and SEAD in the air and tell the people that might make things complicated “go ahead bro... we love proving just how good AMRAAM and HARM are.”

 

The authors point reads like an advertisement for more 5th gen solutions to A-10/U-28/Predator problems. We don’t all need to be contingency capable for the knock down fight with the Russians. There was a reason for the Hi-Low mix, and this makes it out like we will completely ignore the Hi part of the equation which when you look at how we supported Raptor and Lightning while wholesale abandoning stuff the 4.5 gen fighters need like the loss of Raven, Weasel, etc we did exactly the opposite.

 

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9 hours ago, Lawman said:

The authors point reads like an advertisement for more 5th gen solutions to A-10/U-28/Predator problems. We don’t all need to be contingency capable for the knock down fight with the Russians.

Amen brother

I am struggling to understand the institutional resistance to a variety of solutions to the missions we face.  Not every problem is a nail.

Some of the problems he laid out (range, speed for survivability, adaptability / updateability, etc.) are all addressed by the Scorpion (shameless plug) and way exceed its competitors.

It amazes me the obliviousness of the AF for how many of its problems with modernization, support, etc... are caused by the gold plated white elephants we keep buying and asking for but this is a service that will rationalize anything...

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Amen brother
I am struggling to understand the institutional resistance to a variety of solutions to the missions we face.  Not every problem is a nail.
Some of the problems he laid out (range, speed for survivability, adaptability / updateability, etc.) are all addressed by the Scorpion (shameless plug) and way exceed its competitors.
It amazes me the obliviousness of the AF for how many of its problems with modernization, support, etc... are caused by the gold plated white elephants we keep buying and asking for but this is a service that will rationalize anything...


It’s like if we fully adopt that scenario... ok fine. The tankers and support aircraft (River Joint/Jstars/Etc) have to be LO capable like... yesterday.

After all we need them for the scenario of no air superiority and a swath of Red Air that somehow doesn’t have to deal with Blue Air and just gets a free pass at the soft underbelly of the stack.

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22 hours ago, Lawman said:

It’s like if we fully adopt that scenario... ok fine. The tankers and support aircraft (River Joint/Jstars/Etc) have to be LO capable like... yesterday.
After all we need them for the scenario of no air superiority and a swath of Red Air that somehow doesn’t have to deal with Blue Air and just gets a free pass at the soft underbelly of the stack.

 

Yup - everybody needs to be 5th gen / LO in the truly contested environment if you want to have sustained ISR, precision strike, etc... to implement complex ROEs.  Inherently impractical for a host of reasons and not necessary.  If it is that kind of fight, there's not time for the 2 hour mud hut watch while it is debated on whether to strike or not.

The Saudis maybe the first one to take it to a non-permissive environment and test it's ability to operate their:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15757/saudi-arabia-puts-textrons-scorpion-light-attack-jet-through-the-paces

Article says they could possibly be looking at the Yak-130, an apples to oranges comparison IMO.  

The endurance and design (integrated sensor stations, open architecture, mission bay, etc..) of Scorpion just make it unique among ISR / Light Strike, as cheesy as it is, game changing is true to say.

Another article from The Drive, USMC wants some light strike aircraft partnered with its F-5 aggressor program:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/8837/marines-want-more-second-hand-f-5-aggressors-and-a-light-attack-aircraft

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On 11/30/2017 at 5:22 PM, Clark Griswold said:

That writing was in the wall 4 years ago when you could walk around the headquarters of the Strike Wing and they already had posters of it in Phil colors up on the wall. 

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Another interesting perspective. I know there are a lot of MC-12 turned UPT instructor (T-6/T-38) about to start over in wide body ISR (and not happy about it, virtually guaranteeing they will punch at first opportunity....a large portion will be able to 7-day opt out of it I think). Not to mention most of them have experience standing up a squadron from nothing. I’d expect nothing less from AFPC, zero concern for career desires of these guys....Pilot crisis will get worse before getting better, but that’s a different thread.

https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/an-unconventional-proposal-for-bringing-the-oa-x-to-life/

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