Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[BTLFlyer]

75k a year bonus would be nice. Do you think this has any chance of passing?

[CaptainMorgan]

75k a year bonus would be nice. Do you think this has any chance of passing?

Lol. Is Tom Cotton still a Senator?


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[Swizzle]

9 hours ago, BTLFlyer said:

75k a year bonus would be nice. Do you think this has any chance of passing?

@BTLFlyer @Seriously Not likely, reference SASC markup of NDAA23...which proposes an extension of existing quantities, save for the AIR FORCE RATED OFFICER RETENTION DEMONSTRATION PROGRAM...up to $50k/yr only for AD in the SASC markup for NDAA FY23

 

"(d) AUTHORITIES RELATING TO TITLE 37 CONSOLI-
18 DATED SPECIAL PAY, INCENTIVE PAY, AND BONUS AU-
19 THORITIES.—The following sections of title 37, United
20 States Code, are amended by striking ‘‘December 31,
21 2022’’ and inserting ‘‘December 31, 2023’’

//  //

(3) Section 334(i), relating to special aviation

2 incentive pay and bonus authorities for officers."

[Danger41]

Well if Tom Cotton or any of the other honorable members of the esteemed legislative body check this site, a recent informal straw poll amongst bros that punched after 10 year ADSC showed that almost 70% said they would have stayed for at least several more years for 75k a year bonus and $1500 flight pay. I would take it to a 20 year career and retirement for that money. 

[Swizzle]

8 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Well if Tom Cotton or any of the other honorable members of the esteemed legislative body check this site, a recent informal straw poll amongst bros that punched after 10 year ADSC showed that almost 70% said they would have stayed for at least several more years for 75k a year bonus and $1500 flight pay. I would take it to a 20 year career and retirement for that money. 

RAND study's 68k + ~9.3% inflation

[Lawman]

Well if Tom Cotton or any of the other honorable members of the esteemed legislative body check this site, a recent informal straw poll amongst bros that punched after 10 year ADSC showed that almost 70% said they would have stayed for at least several more years for 75k a year bonus and $1500 flight pay. I would take it to a 20 year career and retirement for that money. 

I’d settle for less money and a stop move… Seriously keep the money. I want my feet firmly planted where I’m standing for 5 years, and I’m not even at what most would consider a desirable location I just like my neighborhood and my kids going to the same school for a while.

PCSing to chase Busy work deployments and other “opportunities” has been the biggest sap for keeping people in Army Aviation.


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[BrightNeptune]

Did you know that the year two pay at UPS for first officers is $206 per hour/~173k per year minimum? After ten years when you're a captain, you're pulling in $344 per hour/~$289k per year minimum. 

Heck, you don't even have to sign a ten year contract, live in Clovis, or deploy!

Even a $75k per year bonus can't touch that.

 

[SurelySerious]

Did you know that the year two pay at UPS for first officers is $206 per hour/~173k per year minimum? After ten years when you're a captain, you're pulling in $344 per hour/~$289k per year minimum. 
Heck, you don't even have to sign a ten year contract, live in Clovis, or deploy!
Even a $75k per year bonus can't touch that.
 

UPS is, however, still stuck in the sand with their 1st year pay rate. Financial hazing in full effect.

[nunya]

1 minute ago, SurelySerious said:

Financial hazing in full effect.

So keep that ARC job at least through year one.  Because you love serving your country and somebody has to fly that Key West det.

[DuckHunter]

I took @Standby advice and reached out to my congressman as well.

 

Fool me 1,000 times, shame on me but at least I’m going to say something.

[CaptainMorgan]

I took [mention=13370]Standby[/mention] advice and reached out to my congressman as well.
 
Fool me 1,000 times, shame on me but at least I’m going to say something.

You wrote your Congressman? Whoop de-effing do! The only thing that will cause the rate to increase is enough people walking away to cause HAF to make a real case to Congress to increase it. Realistically, HAF will see the cheaper option is to just increase the UPT ADSC.


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[CaptainMorgan]

I took [mention=13370]Standby[/mention] advice and reached out to my congressman as well.
 
Fool me 1,000 times, shame on me but at least I’m going to say something.

You wrote your Congressman? Whoop de-effing do! The only thing that will cause the rate to increase is enough people walking away to cause HAF to make a real case to Congress to increase it. Realistically, HAF will see the cheaper option is to just increase the UPT ADSC.


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[DuckHunter]

9 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

You wrote your Congressman? Whoop de-effing do! The only thing that will cause the rate to increase is enough people walking away to cause HAF to make a real case to Congress to increase it. Realistically, HAF will see the cheaper option is to just increase the UPT ADSC.


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Yep, sure did.  And I didn’t even have to post it twice.

Guys have been saying to “vote with your feet” since at least 2014.  How’s that working out for us?  Congress controls the purse strings, they just don’t think we have a problem because that’s what the senior leaders are telling them.  They aren’t in the weeds everyday like we are, so they believe them.

I also don’t believe it’s going to happen, but instead of bitching about it I’m at least saying something to somebody that in theory should be able to change it.

[Danger41]

I know financially it makes sense to get to the airlines ASAFP and never look back. I unfortunately suffer from delusions of grandeur and Stockholm Syndrome and don't really want to leave the job that I wanted to get for my entire life. I'm also not totally selfish and know that my family could really benefit from the extra $$ in an airline career. In my current and future job I will absolutely be gone from home more as an airline guy than an AF pilot. YMMV on that one, big time. It's a no brainer to me that (in my own situation) the only extenuating variable is money. Why not pay up?

I have a unique perspective on all this stuff though as my dad was an airline pilot that went through not getting hired for awhile, mergers, furloughs, and 9/11. He punched early after 9/11 to try to get back in the AF as a 59 year old retired O-5 but they didn't want him to fly tankers so he just retired. Even I tried to jump right to the airlines in mid-2020 and that wasn't exactly good timing. All that to say is that I know more about the airlines than the average Joe that never experienced any of that stuff and has just been living the good life the last few years.

Honestly the hardest part for me is thinking back on some missions where my crew and the team writ large was able to make a big difference and bring Americans home from some pretty hairy situations. I know that's stupid and you've got to move on but that type of feeling is nagging me more than I thought it would. 

 

[HeyWatchThis]

On 8/15/2022 at 12:06 AM, herkbier said:

I saw a thing a while back that said flights pay for TRs/DSGs won’t be prorated anymore; work one day, get the whole month of pay. I think it was supposed to take effect FY23, am I remembering correctly? Is that real?

Yep....for a while they tried to pass it as the "Guard/Reserve Pay Disparity Act".....got lost in committee's so they inserted the language into this years (FY22) NDAA.  Below is all the legalese BS straight from the NDAA however bottom line is the SecDef has until 30 Sept 22 to submit a report on how to implement/pay for it and it should go into affect FY23.  

 

SEC. 602. EQUAL INCENTIVE PAY FOR MEMBERS OF THE RESERVE

                        COMPONENTS OF THE ARMED FORCES.

 

    (a) In General.--Subchapter II of chapter 5 of title 37, United

States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new section:

``Sec. 357. <>  Incentive pay authorities for

                members of the reserve components of the armed

                forces

 

    ``Notwithstanding section 1004 of this title, the Secretary

concerned shall pay a member of the reserve component of an armed force

incentive pay in the same monthly amount as that paid to a member in the

regular component of such armed force performing comparable work

requiring comparable skills.''.

    (b) Technical Amendment.--The table of sections at the beginning of

such chapter <>  is amended by inserting after

the item relating to section 356 the following:

 

``357. Incentive pay authorities for members of the reserve components

           of the armed forces.''.

 

    (c) <>  Report.--Not later than September

30, 2022, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Committees on

Armed Services of the Senate and House of Representatives a report

containing--

            (1) <>  the plan of the Secretary to implement

        section 357 of such title, as added by subsection (a);

            (2) <>  an estimate of the costs of

        such implementation;

            (3) the number of members described in such section; and

            (4) <>  any other matter the Secretary

        determines relevant.

 

    (d) Implementation Date.--The Secretary may not implement section

357 of such title, as added by subsection (a) until after--

            (1) submission of the report under subsection (b); and

            (2) <>  the Secretary

        determines and certifies in writing to the Committees on Armed

        Services of the Senate and House of Representatives that such

        implementation shall not have a detrimental effect on the force

        structure of an Armed Force concerned, including with regard to

        recruiting or retention of members in the regular component of

        such Armed Force.

[Homestar]

55 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

I know financially it makes sense to get to the airlines ASAFP and never look back. I unfortunately suffer from delusions of grandeur and Stockholm Syndrome and don't really want to leave the job that I wanted to get for my entire life. I'm also not totally selfish and know that my family could really benefit from the extra $$ in an airline career. In my current and future job I will absolutely be gone from home more as an airline guy than an AF pilot. YMMV on that one, big time. It's a no brainer to me that (in my own situation) the only extenuating variable is money. Why not pay up?

I have a unique perspective on all this stuff though as my dad was an airline pilot that went through not getting hired for awhile, mergers, furloughs, and 9/11. He punched early after 9/11 to try to get back in the AF as a 59 year old retired O-5 but they didn't want him to fly tankers so he just retired. Even I tried to jump right to the airlines in mid-2020 and that wasn't exactly good timing. All that to say is that I know more about the airlines than the average Joe that never experienced any of that stuff and has just been living the good life the last few years.

Honestly the hardest part for me is thinking back on some missions where my crew and the team writ large was able to make a big difference and bring Americans home from some pretty hairy situations. I know that's stupid and you've got to move on but that type of feeling is nagging me more than I thought it would. 

 

I feel you there. Though I didn't have a lifetime dream of flying in the Air Force growing up.

There is more to flying in the Air Force than a paycheck. I enjoy my job. I like my coworkers. Job satisfaction is high for me right now. I'm also at the end of my career and am transitioning to the civilian sector where my flying training will be properly valued (at least by second year pay--I don't believe that the airlines pay well out of the goodness of their heart). I'm proud of what I've done in the Air Force, I'm grateful for the places I've been, the people I've met, and the missions I've flown.

So many people in life are just angry. Angry at "the Air Force", angry at "the libs", angry at whatever. I also understand that many have had negative experiences in the Air Force. I have too. I was non-vol'd to Afghanistan for 364.5 days during a time where Greens were killing Blues. But I also had doors open from that experience that served me well later in my career.

I wish I made $300/hr plus profit sharing in the Air Force. I'd stay longer. But the money has been good enough and now I'm moving on. And a great big "thank you" for those who leave after their UPT commitment is up too! You served. Most Americans can't say the same. Go make that bank. Buy that boat, plane, or second wife. Enjoy life. Be happy.

Staying in the Air Force isn't for everyone. But it is for some.

[brabus]

7 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I will absolutely be gone from home more as an airline guy than an AF pilot

Great post Danger. Just wanted to highlight this one part directed at a general audience…a big YMMV, but I punted airlines for a while due to this belief. But reality is even if you’re flying a “full” schedule of say 16 days, that’s 2 weeks of a month you’re doing 0% work, not even getting texts about work. Now let’s throw in the thousands of games you can play in the airlines schedule/money wise that can reduce that work-money ratio significantly in your favor. It’s worth considering what “home between airline trips” is compared to “home while working for the AF.” And FWIW, there are tons of schedules out there that are not some heinous 5 on/2 off, repeat…unless you’re in the regionals.

To be clear, not a spear at your personal plan or your reasons (I think they’re great), but more just putting this out there for guys like past me. Talk to your airline bros before immediately passing on the idea because “I don’t want to be gone from home all the time.” It’s far more nuanced than that. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by brabus

[DuckHunter]

@Danger41Well said.

I am in a similar boat to you.  I am also a guy who was denied VSP in 2014 and had a reserve job and separation date in March 2020 and the rest is history.  I hit submit on my apps the first week of March only to be told the second week everything was freezing for who knows how long.

My wife came clean and said she liked the stability of the AF, I wasn’t thrilled about working two jobs (reserve and airlines), so we decided to stay in.  I took the three year bonus, this is my last year so this interests me to see what the AF does.

In my opinion, if they do this “revamping” of the bonus right they can keep some fringe guys and start with a clean slate.  Big IF though, the AF has fooled me way more than once.

All that being said, I’m happy as well for the guys getting out.  I hope their careers have no turmoil, and I’ll most likely be calling them in 5.5 years for some recommendations.  But for me, that will all be with the peace of mind of an O-5 retirement.

[Chida]

:For apples-apples comparison:

Airline+AFRES guy here: My avg days off/mo was ~17, or 209 total days off in the past 12 months.

And that's actual days off, meaning at home, no duty, not commuting (I live in base). That number will improve when I retire from AFRES pretty soon here.

Compare that to when I was RegAF. The avg days off baseline was ~12 days/mo (includes 30 days' leave, weekends, holidays, and family days), 153 days off total. Then throw in weekend TDYs and deployments and that number goes down considerably.

[di1630]

:For apples-apples comparison:
Airline+AFRES guy here: My avg days off/mo was ~17, or 209 total days off in the past 12 months.
And that's actual days off, meaning at home, no duty, not commuting (I live in base). That number will improve when I retire from AFRES pretty soon here.
Compare that to when I was RegAF. The avg days off baseline was ~12 days/mo (includes 30 days' leave, weekends, holidays, and family days), 153 days off total. Then throw in weekend TDYs and deployments and that number goes down considerably.

What’s your airline seniority have to be to get that type of deal?

[BFM this]

5 hours ago, di1630 said:

What’s your airline seniority have to be to get that type of deal?

Not rock bottom, but about 12.5k at a 15k legacy.

6 nights out of my own bed this month, in base.  Should improve next year going to WB/FO. 

No ang/res as I'm a proud member of the check of the month club.

[tac airlifter]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:38 PM, Danger41 said:

I know financially it makes sense to get to the airlines ASAFP and never look back. I unfortunately suffer from delusions of grandeur and Stockholm Syndrome and don't really want to leave the job that I wanted to get for my entire life. I'm also not totally selfish and know that my family could really benefit from the extra $$ in an airline career. In my current and future job I will absolutely be gone from home more as an airline guy than an AF pilot. YMMV on that one, big time. It's a no brainer to me that (in my own situation) the only extenuating variable is money. Why not pay up?

I have a unique perspective on all this stuff though as my dad was an airline pilot that went through not getting hired for awhile, mergers, furloughs, and 9/11. He punched early after 9/11 to try to get back in the AF as a 59 year old retired O-5 but they didn't want him to fly tankers so he just retired. Even I tried to jump right to the airlines in mid-2020 and that wasn't exactly good timing. All that to say is that I know more about the airlines than the average Joe that never experienced any of that stuff and has just been living the good life the last few years.

Honestly the hardest part for me is thinking back on some missions where my crew and the team writ large was able to make a big difference and bring Americans home from some pretty hairy situations. I know that's stupid and you've got to move on but that type of feeling is nagging me more than I thought it would. 

 

Great post; I understand your sentiments exactly and I wish you the best with your decision. The Air Force and nation are better with people like you in it.  I fear our service is unable to intelligently manage our most precious resource: you and others similarly motivated to fly fight win.  I salute you for remaining, empathize with your addiction to combat, and genuinely hope the aforementioned pay increases are codified into law. 

[Chida]

I started realizing a lot of time off with the confluence of a number of factors:

1. Switching my ARC job from Cat A to Cat E. With Cat A I was working 6 days/mo. With Cat E it's more like <1 day/mo on a 12 mo avg.

2. Receiving vacation from my airline. The first year of employment you won't have vacation bc you are earning it. Depending on when you join the company, your 2nd yr will have some vacation, but not a full bag. So your 3rd year you will have a full bag of vacation, whatever that may be.

3. Getting enough seniority to bid a good schedule (not reserve, since the company can extend me by a day or two, depending, once per month). The seniority required is top 75 to 80% of the list, which coincided, approx, with beginning of my 3rd year.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Chida

[Smokin]

11 hours ago, Chida said:

2. Receiving vacation from my airline. The first year of employment you won't have vacation bc you are earning it. Depending on when you join the company, your 2nd yr will have some vacation, but not a full bag. So your 3rd year you will have a full bag of vacation, whatever that may be.

3. Getting enough seniority to bid a good schedule (not reserve, since the company can extend me by a day or two, depending, once per month). The seniority required is top 75 to 80% of the list, which coincided, approx, with beginning of my 3rd year.

Company dependent.  I bid my yearly vacation while in my second week at my initial sim qual.  I had to ask my sim partner what this whole "vacation bid" was and how to do it.

Reserve is timing and company dependent.  I had good luck with timing the airlines, but I had a schedule my 3rd or 4th month after my check ride.  Wasn't a great schedule, but it wasn't reserve either.  I also know a guy that literally never sat reserve.  Got a line the month after his check ride.

[Chida]

Of course it's company dependent. I thought that went without saying, but maybe not. The commercial flying world is not a monolith. I can only speak from my perspective at this moment in time. My perspective is as a UPS Airlines pilot with 5 years on property and an AFRES liaison to CAP.

But for real, here's what I observe: it wouldn't matter if I said you get a half milly and work 5 days/mo. Those who are "on the fence", "not quite sure" would still stay in RegAF. The devil is always in the details, meaning, you gotta do the math! There is no shortcut to doing the math! Glossing over the "details" or thinking that all airlines are more/less the same: No, not at all.