Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[GrndPndr]

On 8/24/2023 at 12:21 PM, Biff_T said:

They need to countersink those screws a little more.  Lol

It looks like they used body filler near that leading edge.

[HeyEng]

 

[BashiChuni]

[pawnman]

6 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

You're right... we should definitely just let Russia invade whoever they want. 

[brabus]

What would be nice is if we found the middle ground solution: support our interests abroad (e.g. help RUS crumble) while still prioritizing homeland defense (e.g. border security). I’m not anti-UKR involvement, but I am anti-how much we put into that vs. how little our gov gives a fuck about our non-existent southern border. We’re doing a horrendous job at prioritizing national defense actions, and that’s what pisses people off the most in my opinion.

[HeloDude]

52 minutes ago, brabus said:

What would be nice is if we found the middle ground solution: support our interests abroad (e.g. help RUS crumble) while still prioritizing homeland defense (e.g. border security). I’m not anti-UKR involvement, but I am anti-how much we put into that vs. how little our gov gives a fuck about our non-existent southern border. We’re doing a horrendous job at prioritizing national defense actions, and that’s what pisses people off the most in my opinion.

It’s almost as if politics/ideology is keeping the the US from securing its borders…but that would be a conspiracy theory I’m sure.

[raimius]

10 hours ago, HeloDude said:

It’s almost as if politics/ideology is keeping the the US from securing its borders…but that would be a conspiracy theory I’m sure.

Neither side will fix it.  Neither wants to take responsibility or give up anything when they can scream about how bad the other party is.

[HeloDude]

8 minutes ago, raimius said:

Neither side will fix it.  Neither wants to take responsibility or give up anything when they can scream about how bad the other party is.

I agree on the fixing part.  But one party actively wants to suppress enforcing border security wrt illegal immigration.

[bfargin]

I have no idea on retired Col Mcgregors pedigree, but he makes some interesting points. He thinks Russia’s military is stronger now, after more than a year of war in Ukraine than it’s been in over 30 years. Increased war production capability and renewed national resolve. Has our plan to weaken and undermine Russia backfired spectacularly?
 

https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1693761723230990509?s=46

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, bfargin said:

I have no idea on retired Col Mcgregors pedigree, but he makes some interesting points. He thinks Russia’s military is stronger now, after more than a year of war in Ukraine than it’s been in over 30 years. Increased war production capability and renewed national resolve. Has our plan to weaken and undermine Russia backfired spectacularly?
 

https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1693761723230990509?s=46

I don't know how you make the claim that a military digging out 60's Era equipment and buying ammo from North Korea is stronger...

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

I don't know how you make the claim that a military digging out 60's Era equipment and buying ammo from North Korea is stronger...

Yeah, that doesn't add up. The best case scenario is that you get experienced soldiers from this, but with so many soldiers in Russia being conscripted, it is unlikely they will have a whole lot of people sticking with the military whenever this fiasco is over.

 

[bfargin]

Ukraine has about 500k dead and injured now, so it’s def not going well for them. If you listened, he does at least acknowledge the complexity and huge risk of not working on a peace deal sooner than later. Again I’m not sure how in the know he is, but he’s pointing out the obvious fact that Ukraine is not winning. He thinks we’re essentially destroying a nation by encouraging them not to seek peace.

On the last point, he seems correct for sure.

[DirkDiggler]

7 hours ago, bfargin said:

I have no idea on retired Col Mcgregors pedigree, but he makes some interesting points. He thinks Russia’s military is stronger now, after more than a year of war in Ukraine than it’s been in over 30 years. Increased war production capability and renewed national resolve. Has our plan to weaken and undermine Russia backfired spectacularly?
 

https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1693761723230990509?s=46

He's about as pro-Putin/Russia you can get as an American short of actually owing a dacha outside Moscow.  Actually appeared on RT in 2014 defending Putin's seizure of the Donbas and Crimea.  His talking points on Carlson's shows have been re-broadcast on RT.  He's consistently argued that Ukraine is on the verge of defeat during the entire war.  He further stated that Russia was "too gentle" in the opening phase of the invasion, something that the citizens of Bucha probably disagree with. 

  I understand that there's people who don't support us helping Ukraine (for various reasons) but I truly can't understand how anyone outside of Russia can be supportive of Russia's actions during this war.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, bfargin said:

Ukraine has about 500k dead and injured now, so it’s def not going well for them. If you listened, he does at least acknowledge the complexity and huge risk of not working on a peace deal sooner than later. Again I’m not sure how in the know he is, but he’s pointing out the obvious fact that Ukraine is not winning. He thinks we’re essentially destroying a nation by encouraging them not to seek peace.

On the last point, he seems correct for sure.

There is a very wide gulf between "Ukraine is struggling as this war continues" and "Russia is stronger now than they were before the invasion".

There's probably some merit in the idea that Russia can eventually win just through sheer weight of manpower. I don't see any merit in the idea that they're better off militarily now than they were in 2019...

[bfargin]

1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

He's about as pro-Putin/Russia you can get as an American short of actually owing a dacha outside Moscow.  Actually appeared on RT in 2014 defending Putin's seizure of the Donbas and Crimea.  His talking points on Carlson's shows have been re-broadcast on RT.  He's consistently argued that Ukraine is on the verge of defeat during the entire war.  He further stated that Russia was "too gentle" in the opening phase of the invasion, something that the citizens of Bucha probably disagree with. 

  I understand that there's people who don't support us helping Ukraine (for various reasons) but I truly can't understand how anyone outside of Russia can be supportive of Russia's actions during this war.

Thanks. I've not studied that region of the world much but I know it's more complicated (Russia vs. europe) than many suggest and it's not a simple Russia bad and Ukraine good situation. Hopefully he didn't actually support or celebrate the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation (I can't find where he's doing that). 

Russia needs to offer peace to Ukraine immediately, and we need to help facilitate that peace. Some kind of compromise at this point is better than the wholesale destruction of Ukraine.

[uhhello]

10 minutes ago, bfargin said:

Thanks. I've not studied that region of the world much but I know it's more complicated (Russia vs. europe) than many suggest and it's not a simple Russia bad and Ukraine good situation. Hopefully he didn't actually support or celebrate the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation (I can't find where he's doing that). 

Russia needs to offer peace to Ukraine immediately, and we need to help facilitate that peace. Some kind of compromise at this point is better than the wholesale destruction of Ukraine.

At what point would you stop fighting if a foreign power invaded the USA?  Agreed that there are many factors on both sides here in play but the Ukrainian's aren't fighting because we're telling them to 🙂 We are helping them through a fuck ton of money and weaponry but ultimately if they want to surrender, its up to them.  

[bfargin]

5 minutes ago, uhhello said:

At what point would you stop fighting if a foreign power invaded the USA?  Agreed that there are many factors on both sides here in play but the Ukrainian's aren't fighting because we're telling them to 🙂 We are helping them through a fuck ton of money and weaponry but ultimately if they want to surrender, its up to them.  

Apples to oranges and even I know that. The Ukraine - Russia relationship is not like any relationship we've had as a nation beside possibly with England (though even thats not really the same). There were about 3 to 5 million Russians living in Ukraine before the war started. They speak the same language and were part of the same Nation (USSR) for many years. Not the same situation at all.

But, to play your game/question ... If we were about to be completely obliterated and the invader offered us a chance to keep most of the US intact but give back part of the region that already had many of "their people" living there, I'd negotiate peace.  

[uhhello]

6 minutes ago, bfargin said:

Apples to oranges and even I know that. The Ukraine - Russia relationship is not like any relationship we've had as a nation beside possibly with England (though even thats not really the same). There were about 3 to 5 million Russians living in Ukraine before the war started. They speak the same language and were part of the same Nation (USSR) for many years. Not the same situation at all.

But, to play your game/question ... If we were about to be completely obliterated and the invader offered us a chance to keep most of the US intact but give back part of the region that already had many of "their people" living there, I'd negotiate peace.  

Sure thing bud.  Mexico invades and annexes southern halves of az and tx.  Lots of Mexican heritage and blood there.  It’s fine. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by uhhello

[pawnman]

56 minutes ago, bfargin said:

Apples to oranges and even I know that. The Ukraine - Russia relationship is not like any relationship we've had as a nation beside possibly with England (though even thats not really the same). There were about 3 to 5 million Russians living in Ukraine before the war started. They speak the same language and were part of the same Nation (USSR) for many years. Not the same situation at all.

But, to play your game/question ... If we were about to be completely obliterated and the invader offered us a chance to keep most of the US intact but give back part of the region that already had many of "their people" living there, I'd negotiate peace.  

Russia also treated Ukraine pretty brutally and starved several million people there... maybe there's a reason Ukraine isn't in a hurry to surrender. 

[bfargin]

you guys are only ones saying surrender.

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, bfargin said:

you guys are only ones saying surrender.

How do you think this ends? You think Zelensky just asks nicely and Putin removes all the troops? 

Every proposal I've seen from folks who say we should negotiate a settlement involves Ukraine giving up a bunch of land to Russia. And let's not forget this is the third attempt by Russia to take land from Ukraine in the last 20 years. I don't know why anyone would think Russia would stick to any negotiated settlement this time around. 

[bfargin]

32 minutes ago, pawnman said:

How do you think this ends? You think Zelensky just asks nicely and Putin removes all the troops? 

Every proposal I've seen from folks who say we should negotiate a settlement involves Ukraine giving up a bunch of land to Russia. And let's not forget this is the third attempt by Russia to take land from Ukraine in the last 20 years. I don't know why anyone would think Russia would stick to any negotiated settlement this time around. 

Not sure where it ends exactly, but if we keep going with the current plan I don't have much hope for Ukraine remaining as a nation and if they do, whats left will have 1/2 the population dead or permanently disabled.

All I'm saying is we need to reassess and work as hard as we can to negotiate the best peace agreement we can to save Ukraine. This war is def shaking up Russia but they have banded together and won't trust us for decades now. They have upped their in-house production capability and are even selling more oil to Europe than before we "closed" them off and they have more liquid cash than they had prior to the war. From what I've been reading (from European and American news sources) patriotism is up in Russia and they trust the West less than they have since 1989 when things began to crumble for the former USSR. They've banded together with China in a stronger relationship and the world seems less stable than it's been in a while. I'm not a policy expert or a bureaucrat and am not a fan of Putin but I hate to see a country used up and spit out when there are probably ways to establish peace (with some concessions that might not be perfect).

If Zalensky dies in battle soon, my skepticism of him might be proven wrong.  I don't trust his motives, and he's a biden type "leader" who is all about himself and enriching his own. Towards the end, when Ukraine is completely toast, I see him heading for Florida or Switzerland and moving into a nice comfortable mansion to spend some of the billions we've sent over as he lives out his comfortable existence (similar to other scumbags of the late 1900s...Suharto, Marco, Seko, Aleman, to name a few).

[uhhello]

1 hour ago, bfargin said:

you guys are only ones saying surrender.

You're right.  You said 'negotiate peace'.  

[uhhello]

37 minutes ago, bfargin said:

Not sure where it ends exactly, but if we keep going with the current plan I don't have much hope for Ukraine remaining as a nation and if they do, whats left will have 1/2 the population dead or permanently disabled.

All I'm saying is we need to reassess and work as hard as we can to negotiate the best peace agreement we can to save Ukraine. This war is def shaking up Russia but they have banded together and won't trust us for decades now. They have upped their in-house production capability and are even selling more oil to Europe than before we "closed" them off and they have more liquid cash than they had prior to the war. From what I've been reading (from European and American news sources) patriotism is up in Russia and they trust the West less than they have since 1989 when things began to crumble for the former USSR. They've banded together with China in a stronger relationship and the world seems less stable than it's been in a while. I'm not a policy expert or a bureaucrat and am not a fan of Putin but I hate to see a country used up and spit out when there are probably ways to establish peace (with some concessions that might not be perfect).

If Zalensky dies in battle soon, my skepticism of him might be proven wrong.  I don't trust his motives, and he's a biden type "leader" who is all about himself and enriching his own. Towards the end, when Ukraine is completely toast, I see him heading for Florida or Switzerland and moving into a nice comfortable mansion to spend some of the billions we've sent over as he lives out his comfortable existence (similar to other scumbags of the late 1900s...Suharto, Marco, Seko, Aleman, to name a few).

You keep saying you're not an expert or well read in the conflict but you're sure talking a lot of Russian internal workings like you are?  

[Best-22]

Russia launders propaganda through American news sources and people like Bfargin fall for it. Be careful where you get your news from people:

 

https://www.csis.org/analysis/exploring-information-laundering-ecosystem-russian-case

 

Claiming Russia is stronger now than before the war has the same energy as claiming the Earth is flat.