The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Lord Ratner]

36 minutes ago, lloyd christmas said:

Every situation or narrative you listed above has either been created by, promoted, defended or championed by democrats.  Elected democrats aren’t changing their stance on the policies that created these issues, they are doubling down.  Every day there are more examples of Democrat policies getting more and more insane. Hopefully, November 8th will be a wake up call for democrats.  

Yes... That's exactly my point. Welcome.

 

But if your can't distinguish between Democratic politicians/activists/academics and the Democratic voters, then there will be no progress 

 

Elections are not going to wake them up. Meaningful interactions with conservatives who can demonstrate a sane alternative to their no-longer-sane party, will. This was always the problem with Trump; he could very effectively communicate the hypocrisies and insanities of the political left, but only to Republicans. His pure odiousness was anathema to anyone you'd actually want to persuade. As anyone in the Air Force heard a million times, perception matters.

[FourFans]

7 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Yes... That's exactly my point. Welcome.

 

But if your can't distinguish between Democratic politicians/activists/academics and the Democratic voters, then there will be no progress 

 

Elections are not going to wake them up. Meaningful interactions with conservatives who can demonstrate a sane alternative to their no-longer-sane party, will. This was always the problem with Trump; he could very effectively communicate the hypocrisies and insanities of the political left, but only to Republicans. His pure odiousness was anathema to anyone you'd actually want to persuade. As anyone in the Air Force heard a million times, perception matters.

So what is your solution here?  If classically liberal (not crazy) Democrat voters continue to vote democrat right now, they continue to vote for the insanity.  I sincerely want a Democratic party that polices itself...yet a whole bunch of extreme left politicians continue to get elected.

Are D voters waying to be recognized as 'not as extreme as the people we voted for' before they come to their senses and STOP electing these people?  Sounds pretty millennial, and I refuse.  I've had celebration of other people emotions shoved down my throat for long enough.

I understand your view of the problem, and I agree.  20 years in the AF taught me that admiring problems is really popular, really easy, and entirely worthless.  What's your solution?

 

Pro Tip: If you have an honest and genuine answer, it won't involve the word "Trump".  I get that you hate him, so do I. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by FourFans130

[Lord Ratner]

3 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

So what is your solution here?  If classically liberal (not crazy) Democrat voters continue to vote democrat right now, they continue to vote for the insanity.  I sincerely want a Democrat party that polices itself...yet a whole bunch of extreme left politicians continue to get elected.

I understand your view of the problem, and I agree.  20 years in the AF taught me that admiring problems is really popular, and completely worthless.  What's your solution?

Conservatives have to talk to liberals. That's the solution. Those conversations have to happen without all of the usual conversational violations that shut down any chance of consensus or persuasion. Some examples:

- Strawmanning 

- Acting as though the person you're talking to is responsible for, or agrees with, all the ideas/opinions of someone else just because they voted for the same party

- Assumption of ill-intent

- Using perjoratives to describe the party or the politicians they support our have supported. This is an implicit insult. "That fucking moron Joe Biden," for example, implies that anyone who voted for him must also be stupid, because only an idiot would vote for an idiot. Libtards is another example.

- Spiking the football when you prove them wrong

- Forcing someone to own a previously held opinion even though they may have changed their mind since then.

 

You get the idea. It's all the exact same shit the liberals have been doing to conservatives for as long as I've been alive. But this isn't about what's fair, because it's not at all fair; it's about what works. Conservatives, as a group and as individuals, have to decide if they want to fix the society, or be viewed as the winners of a battle. Those are mutually exclusive goals.

[Lord Ratner]

25 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

I have been lambasted on this forum for saying I am pro-choice.

Good Lord, you must have been a real treat to give "feedback" to. So much for thick skin.

 

You weren't lambasted for being pro choice, you were lambasted (specifically, I called you an idiot) for doing exactly what we're talking about now:

On 5/10/2022 at 11:13 AM, ClearedHot said:

I presume all the fervent pro-life folks here have forced their wives to remove their IUDs. 

Then you tried to play dumb that that wasn't an intentionally inflammatory and reductionist attack instead of just starting the conversation. 

 

[lloyd christmas]

13 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Conservatives have to talk to liberals. That's the solution. Those conversations have to happen without all of the usual conversational violations that shut down any chance of consensus or persuasion. Some examples:

- Strawmanning 

- Acting as though the person you're talking to is responsible for, or agrees with, all the ideas/opinions of someone else just because they voted for the same party

- Assumption of ill-intent

- Using perjoratives to describe the party or the politicians they support our have supported. This is an implicit insult. "That fucking moron Joe Biden," for example, implies that anyone who voted for him must also be stupid, because only an idiot would vote for an idiot. Libtards is another example.

- Spiking the football when you prove them wrong

- Forcing someone to own a previously held opinion even though they may have changed their mind since then.

You get the idea. It's all the exact same shit the liberals have been doing to conservatives for as long as I've been alive. But this isn't about what's fair, because it's not at all fair; it's about what works. Conservatives, as a group and as individuals, have to decide if they want to fix the society, or be viewed as the winners of a battle. Those are mutually exclusive goals.

“Conservatives have to talk to liberals”.  Have you seen what happens when conservative speakers show up on college campuses?  

You don’t get to blame conservatives for the lack of productive conversation, insults or straw-manning.  Not even close.  It is the Democrat party and the left that is the party of division and hate.  It is intentional and designed to increase power, both personally and politically.  Reference words like bigot, racist, sexist, ableist, homophobe, nazi, white supremacist, extremist, etc.  

I agree, the average moderate Democrat isn’t some raging member of the squad.  However, you can’t ignore the progressive left’s tactics, language or policies.  The Democrat party owns it all.  The solution is for the Democrat party to police itself.   Not continue to blame republicans.  

 

[Lord Ratner]

4 minutes ago, lloyd christmas said:

“Conservatives have to talk to liberals”.  Have you seen what happens when conservative speakers show up on college campuses?  

You don’t get to blame conservatives for the lack of productive conversation, insults or straw-manning.  Not even close.  It is the Democrat party and the left that is the party of division and hate.  It is intentional and designed to increase power, both personally and politically.  Reference words like bigot, racist, sexist, ableist, homophobe, nazi, white supremacist, extremist, etc.  

I agree, the average moderate Democrat isn’t some raging member of the squad.  However, you can’t ignore the progressive left’s tactics, language or policies.  The Democrat party owns it all.  The solution is for the Democrat party to police itself.   Not continue to blame republicans.  

 

 

51 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

It's all the exact same shit the liberals have been doing to conservatives for as long as I've been alive. But this isn't about what's fair, because it's not at all fair; it's about what works.

Good luck. That's never worked on the past, but maybe this time will be different...

 

51 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Conservatives, as a group and as individuals, have to decide if they want to fix the society, or be viewed as the winners of a battle. Those are mutually exclusive goals.

 

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Conservatives have to talk to liberals. 

Liberals champion censorship this negating your proposed solution. 
 

You cannot ban people from Twitter & college campus speaking engagements while simultaneously blaming them for not engaging in conversation.

[Blue]

11 hours ago, O Face said:

I doubt Kirby even knows what it means, but yes I agree, Uncle Sugar has his hand up Kirby’s ass far enough to get his fvckin lips to say whatever horseshit he wants. 

Scott Kirby (United CEO) is a particularly interesting example.  Opinions of the guy vary, be I don't think it can be denied that he's a pretty intelligent guy who knows how to run an airline.

His Linkedin profile is pretty active, with posts several times a week.  Scrolling through there, you'd think that diversity is the single biggest challenge facing the airline, with climate change a close second.  Every once in a great while, he talks about serving customers, fixing airplanes, flying airplanes, etc.  You know, real airline stuff.

Kirby is not an idiot.  He knows diversity, climate change, and similar ilk are bullshit.  But he also knows that the airline industry is beholden to the federal government, through both regulation, as well as the fact that the us govt. is one of United's biggest customers.

When Uncle Sam says his priorities are Diversity and Climate Change, Kirby (and other CEOs) march in lock-step.

Guys like that don't get to the corner office by "fighting City Hall."

[dream big]

4 hours ago, brabus said:

Woke-related: the meltdown from the progressives over Elon’s twitter acquisition is nothing short of hilarious, but also still shocking how incredibly delusional so many people are.

One gem of a tweet: “Nearly every American media institution is now openly right-wing”. That is some next-level delusion/ignorance. 
 

When you are so far left, nearly everything is now far right. Close family member hates Biden and Kamala, not for the reasons you would think. It’s because they aren’t liberal enough. 

[FourFans]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Conservatives have to talk to liberals. That's the solution. Those conversations have to happen without all of the usual conversational violations that shut down any chance of consensus or persuasion. Some examples:

- Strawmanning 

- Acting as though the person you're talking to is responsible for, or agrees with, all the ideas/opinions of someone else just because they voted for the same party

- Assumption of ill-intent

- Using perjoratives to describe the party or the politicians they support our have supported. This is an implicit insult. "That fucking moron Joe Biden," for example, implies that anyone who voted for him must also be stupid, because only an idiot would vote for an idiot. Libtards is another example.

- Spiking the football when you prove them wrong

- Forcing someone to own a previously held opinion even though they may have changed their mind since then.

 

You get the idea. It's all the exact same shit the liberals have been doing to conservatives for as long as I've been alive. But this isn't about what's fair, because it's not at all fair; it's about what works. Conservatives, as a group and as individuals, have to decide if they want to fix the society, or be viewed as the winners of a battle. Those are mutually exclusive goals.

So I understand this correctly:  Your solution to the democratic party being overtaken by the ideology of their small, yet extreme, violent, and exceedingly outspoken minority, is to have conservatives talk those extremists out of being extreme in polite and kind ways? 

Wouldn't it make more sense for moderate democrats, such as yourself, to do that, or simply overwhelm the extreme element by voting in non-extremists?  We've see the past couple years what happens when conservatives stick up for what they believe in.  Extremists liberals quite literally shit, spit, riot, and protest all over moderate conservatives for simply saying "no" to the extreme agendas. 

How did you come to your conclusion that it's the conservative's job to save the country, and not the democrat's to police their own fools?

[Biff_T]

Are we (The United States) better off now than 2 years ago?  If so vote the same if not change it up.  

I'm so woke right now. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Biff_T

[VMFA187]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Conservatives have to talk to liberals. That's the solution.

Hahaha. That's funny. I've attempted legitimate conversations to discuss issues but end up getting yelled at, by friends even, because many of those on the left are driven by their emotions and feelings on issues, not actual facts. 

Look at any attempt for a conservative spokesperson to speak at a college campus - Liberals/leftists start yelling, screaming, and completely shut down any ability to have a discussion. 

[GrndPndr]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Conservatives have to talk to liberals. That's the solution. Those conversations have to happen without all of the usual conversational violations that shut down any chance of consensus or persuasion. Some examples:

<snip>

Can only assume you are talking about a situation where that conversation is completely private?  Any public "discourse" will be instantly tainted by the press (both left and right), all the indoctrinees (public) will choose the the news that fits their indoctrination - and the whole thing will be dead in the water.

"Set takeoff power!"

"Uh sir, we don't have any engines, not even an APU."

"Well, I was hoping."

[ClearedHot]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Good Lord, you must have been a real treat to give "feedback" to. So much for thick skin.

I happily take feedback from supervisors, subordinates, colleagues and people I care about.  Random social justice warriors on the internet, not so much. 

A quick review, you don't like what I post, I am an idiot, I am an asshole, I was a horrible officer and I don't take feedback.  You've stalked my profile, quoted my old posts and pointed out all of misguided posts and faulty logic...what next, are you going to slide into my DMs?  But I am the one trying to "keep it real on the internet?"  Seriously, you might need a new hobby.

You do realize it is a web forum...Labeled "Squadron Bar"...I know you want to speak loudest and insult everyone so you can win the debrief but seriously a bit of perspective might help your blood pressure.

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, VMFA187 said:

Hahaha. That's funny. I've attempted legitimate conversations to discuss issues but end up getting yelled at, by friends even, because many of those on the left are driven by their emotions and feelings on issues, not actual facts. 

Look at any attempt for a conservative spokesperson to speak at a college campus - Liberals/leftists start yelling, screaming, and completely shut down any ability to have a discussion. 

Amen

The left has no tolerance for discussion...it is take no prisoners, our agenda at all costs.

Look no further than the events that happened to Paul Pelosi last night.  It is slowly coming out that this guy believes there is a conspiracy behind the COVID vaccine and the Jan 6 investigation.  Dude is clearly a nutjob but less than 8 hours after the attack a California Democrat is running an add linking the attack to the GOP.  This after Nancy Pelosi's daughter CHEERED the same thing happening to Rand Paul.

 

[chris99]

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Conservatives have to talk to liberals. That's the solution. Those conversations have to happen without all of the usual conversational violations that shut down any chance of consensus or persuasion. Some examples:

- Strawmanning 

- Acting as though the person you're talking to is responsible for, or agrees with, all the ideas/opinions of someone else just because they voted for the same party

- Assumption of ill-intent

- Using perjoratives to describe the party or the politicians they support our have supported. This is an implicit insult. "That ing moron Joe Biden," for example, implies that anyone who voted for him must also be stupid, because only an idiot would vote for an idiot. Libtards is another example.

- Spiking the football when you prove them wrong

- Forcing someone to own a previously held opinion even though they may have changed their mind since then.

 

You get the idea. It's all the exact same shit the liberals have been doing to conservatives for as long as I've been alive. But this isn't about what's fair, because it's not at all fair; it's about what works. Conservatives, as a group and as individuals, have to decide if they want to fix the society, or be viewed as the winners of a battle. Those are mutually exclusive goals.

 

1 hour ago, GrndPndr said:

Can only assume you are talking about a situation where that conversation is completely private?  Any public "discourse" will be instantly tainted by the press (both left and right), all the indoctrinees (public) will choose the the news that fits their indoctrination - and the whole thing will be dead in the water.

"Set takeoff power!"

"Uh sir, we don't have any engines, not even an APU."

"Well, I was hoping."

Ratner is 100% spot on here (except he should not have just singled out conservatives). And he is most-assuredly speaking about private conversations with liberals. Unless you can have a rational conversation with someone of the opposing viewpoint, nothing is going to change. Some people might be too far gone to have a rational conversation with, but from my experience, if you try to put yourself in their shoes, go have a beer together, and not talk solely politics and religion; you should have at least a little success in establishing some rapport and being able to have a productive dialogue.

We also need term limits and at least one other viable party to vote for to break out of this funk in my opinion. I think the FairTax (H.R. 25) would help as well because it would abolish the IRS and curb lobbyism/tax loopholes.

[Day Man]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

The left has no tolerance for discussion...it is take no prisoners, our agenda at all costs.

Look no further than the events that happened to Paul Pelosi last night.  It is slowly coming out that this guy believes there is a conspiracy behind the COVID vaccine and the Jan 6 investigation.  Dude is clearly a nutjob but less than 8 hours after the attack a California Democrat is running an add linking the attack to the GOP.  This after Nancy Pelosi's daughter CHEERED the same thing happening to Rand Paul.

I like how you say the left has no tolerance for discussion, then gloss over the fact some dude from the right literally tried to kill the speaker of the house with a goddamn hammer.

[Lord Ratner]

5 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Liberals champion censorship this negating your proposed solution. 
 

You cannot ban people from Twitter & college campus speaking engagements while simultaneously blaming them for not engaging in conversation.

Again, separate what Trump might call "the elite" from the voters. Your average run-of-the-mill Democratic voter does not support censorship. Just like they don't support defunding the police. Censorship is exactly how the Democratic elite intend to maintain their control over their voters. Keep *you* from talking to them. 

 

If we throw up our hands because they censor a few prominent conservatives, they win. Believe it or not, you aren't censored, and the loudest conservatives are making millions. Don't buy into a narrative that isn't true.

 

[waveshaper]

"some dude from the right literally tried to kill the speaker of the house with a goddamn hammer." 

The media had to use this type of language in their headlines to get mega viewers/ratings.

If the headline had been "Paul Pelosi Gets Hammered" nobody would have read the story and think everything is normal...

[Guardian]

We should outlaw hammers!!!!!!

[Lord Ratner]

4 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

So I understand this correctly:  Your solution to the democratic party being overtaken by the ideology of their small, yet extreme, violent, and exceedingly outspoken minority, is to have conservatives talk those extremists out of being extreme in polite and kind ways? 

No. Literally the opposite. You have to talk to the non-extremists. When the "regular" Democrats realize the descriptions of conservatives as evil and hateful  (characterizations that cannot survive an intimate dialog) are made up nonsense, they will not feel like their party is "the only option for their views."

4 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

Wouldn't it make more sense for moderate democrats, such as yourself, to do that, or simply overwhelm the extreme element by voting in non-extremists?  We've see the past couple years what happens when conservatives stick up for what they believe in.  Extremists liberals quite literally shit, spit, riot, and protest all over moderate conservatives for simply saying "no" to the extreme agendas. 

I am 75% conservative, and while I despise both parties, I overwhelmingly side with the Republicans. I am certainly no Democrat. Never once voted for one. That's my point. Conservatives are spending all their time talking to each other. It's not going to fix anything. The hard work of reaching out falls to us. Is it fair? No. But if we don't fix it, who will?

4 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

How did you come to your conclusion that it's the conservative's job to save the country, and not the democrat's to police their own fools?

It's just one of the differences between conservative and liberal humans. We conserve. We defend and reinforce necessary systems. Liberals identify failings and bring attention to them. Neither side can succeed without the other, but not neither side will interact. Conservatives abandoned academia and government after the 60s. College got stupid, but conservatives shrugged. "The college kids will grow out of that when reality hits them." How'd that work out?

4 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

Hahaha. That's funny. I've attempted legitimate conversations to discuss issues but end up getting yelled at, by friends even, because many of those on the left are driven by their emotions and feelings on issues, not actual facts. 

Yup. Not easy to go against a 24 hour news cycle or social media outrage machine. But what is your alternative? It's not getting better, and now the conservatives are starting to do the same shit liberals do. Just look at Jan 6th. Conservatives *never* used to riot. 

4 hours ago, GrndPndr said:

Can only assume you are talking about a situation where that conversation is completely private? 

Absolutely. A private conversation where you can ask questions and exchange opinions. 

 

2 hours ago, chris99 said:

but from my experience, if you try to put yourself in their shoes, go have a beer together, and not talk solely politics and religion; you should have at least a little success in establishing some rapport and being able to have a productive dialogue.

Shack.

 

It's amazing how far you can get in a conversation simply by doing nothing but asking questions, especially when you are attacked. When my mother in law said that the anti-abortion crowd is evil, during a conversation where I was definitely against abortion, all I had to do was ask "do you think I'm evil? Is your daughter?" Then wait. Let the wheels turn, which can't happen if you go on the attack.

 

Someone said the left is all emotion. 100% true. But emotion can be overruled by thought and reason, if thought and reason are invoked.

My favorite Jordan Peterson quote: "in order to think, you must be able to speak."

 

Liberals (voters, NOT activists) aren't speaking, because we aren't speaking to them anymore. If we don't find a way to talk with them about our reality, do we really think they are going to stumble upon it on their own?

[Day Man]

21 minutes ago, waveshaper said:

"some dude from the right literally tried to kill the speaker of the house with a goddamn hammer." 

The media had to use this type of language in their headlines to get mega viewers/ratings.

If the headline had been "Paul Pelosi Gets Hammered" nobody would have read the story and think everything is normal...

 

 

not here...did you conjure this up to justify some presupposed bias?

[waveshaper]

"not here...did you conjure this up to justify some presupposed bias?"

My response probably belongs over in "Lighten Up Francis":

 

[GrndPndr]

1 hour ago, Day Man said:

I like how you say the left has no tolerance for discussion, then gloss over the fact some dude from the right literally tried to kill the speaker of the house with a goddamn hammer.

Yes, you did just drop the other shoe.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, (if different from the usual).  Wait, this will play out as usual, with the left saying something must be done with the "Right wing MAGA nuts."  Yep, that's the way they roll!

[arg]

3 hours ago, Day Man said:

 

 

not here...did you conjure this up to justify some presupposed bias?

Dude should be treated like he assaulted any other person.