COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Lockjaw]

I think the medical community has lost a lot of trust. Pretty sure I posted about this a few pages (or more?) back. Again from my EMS background, I knew people in the northeast who were in the thick of it from March of 2020 onward for a number of months. They had terrible stories. Some of them were understandably quite vocal from their experiences about people taking precautions, mandates being needed, and that people should just listen to "the experts." (Side note: Many of them spoke of being overwhelmed, and I have no doubt about that - but there have also been plenty of hospital closures/total bed losses leading up to 2020. This reduced capacity, partially because hospital CEOs wanted to run leaner operations.)

The problem is that when circumstances change/new data arises, experts these days seem to not adjust. I asked some of my friends if, when we go to war, the country should just be quiet and listen to the "experts" (generals, DOD civilian leadership, etc) regardless of what else is seen or heard. We were constantly turning the corner in AFG. Some of them got it. Some didn't.

The more the experts dug in their heels, the more people started losing trust in the medical community. And when hospital CEOs started letting their infectious disease specialists (who are some of the most hypochondriac/risk averse people out there) make lots of decisions for the entire hospital community, further trust was lost. People weren't allowed to be with their loved ones when they passed. Fathers weren't allowed to be present for births. Plenty of other boneheaded decisions as well, which I and others eventually saw as not so much needed to control the virus, but which instead made life easier for some of the less friendly or cordial medical professionals (and there are plenty of them out there, unfortunately).

I have no problem with people choosing to wear a mask - and if the data ever overwhelmingly supports it (like smoking and secondhand smoke is bad for you), places requiring people with certain symptoms to be masked. Masks for all, no matter what, all the time, is a silly policy, and the field would be much better off investing in HVAC/ventilation upgrades.

[gearhog]

House just passed this years defense budget, which rescinds the vaccine mandate.

I guess that's one way to get conservatives to look past the 100 Billion Dollar increase. Think it'll pass Senate?

 

[Guest nsplayr]

Yes I think it will pass. Many conservatives advocate for increased defense spending and the defense budget increased every year under Trump and in fact the vast majority of years since WWII. The only sustained downturn was 2011-2015 and that deal was (oddly, stupidly) bipartisan in nature.

[pbar]

23 hours ago, BFM this said:

Masks have become the progressives' MAGA hat.

More analogous to a Christian wearing a crucifix or an Orthodox Jew wearing a yarmulke. 

[GKinnear]

On 12/8/2022 at 11:20 AM, pawnman said:

Are there a lot of O2 tanks in the waiting room? 

Even then... shouldn't everyone be free to make their own risk decision? "That guy is smoking next to an O2 tank, maybe I should leave".

Of course the point is we accept some mandates... it's part of living in a society. I don't know why some people have decided wearing a mask in a hospital is the last straw towards a totalitarian society. 

IMO, "Shouldn't everyone be free to make their own risk decision?" is not logically consistent with "of course the point is we accept some mandates"

While I personally don't like mandates (you're not the boss of me!), on principle they should be the minimum amount necessary to do the job.  I also think that there should be a healthy discussion to ensure that minimum amount.  

In this case it seems that the mask mandates are broad and over-reaching at all levels, and the lack of follow-on conversation is the sticky wicket in the whole affair.

Just my $0.69 (inflation is a real bitch)

[BashiChuni]

I wonder what he’s found…

[BashiChuni]

He found something!

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by BashiChuni

[pawnman]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:44 AM, GKinnear said:

IMO, "Shouldn't everyone be free to make their own risk decision?" is not logically consistent with "of course the point is we accept some mandates"

While I personally don't like mandates (you're not the boss of me!), on principle they should be the minimum amount necessary to do the job.  I also think that there should be a healthy discussion to ensure that minimum amount.  

In this case it seems that the mask mandates are broad and over-reaching at all levels, and the lack of follow-on conversation is the sticky wicket in the whole affair.

Just my $0.69 (inflation is a real bitch)

That second part was my point. We accept a whole lot of mandates. But somehow wearing a mask in a hospital is where it becomes tyranny. 

[FourFans]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:20 AM, pawnman said:

Are there a lot of O2 tanks in the waiting room? 

As a mater of fact, yes.  Most hospitals have O2 lines running through most of their walls, including the exterior ones and the ones that border the waiting room.  Beyond that, it takes one remodel or one re-org for the old ICU wall to become the waiting room wall, and then you've got a significant number of O2 and other hospital-unique and hazardous plumbing running through those walls.  

[filthy_liar]

13 hours ago, pawnman said:

That second part was my point. We accept a whole lot of mandates. But somehow wearing a mask in a hospital is where it becomes tyranny. 

I don't accept a whole lot of mandates.  And that makes me a weirdo.  And that's too bad. You have demonstrated over and over that you love mandates.  You are bringing them out of the woodwork.  You love mandates, they make you feel comfortable.  I wish they didn't.  I wish you still had an ounce of pioneering blood in you.  I wish you still had a fighting spirit.  And I wish you never flew on the B-1.

[brabus]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gen-petraeus-ukraine-military-readiness-priorities-ndaa-vax-mandate-outrage-manufactured
 

Somebody’s getting kickbacks from pharma…

[GKinnear]

9 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

 And I wish you never flew on the B-1.

C'mon bro...don't descend into ad hominem / personal attacks.  We're better than that.

If there's a joke that I missed in your post, please excuse me while I go yell at some clouds.

[GKinnear]

22 hours ago, pawnman said:

That second part was my point. We accept a whole lot of mandates. But somehow wearing a mask in a hospital is where it becomes tyranny. 

To me the tyranny is not wearing a mask in the hospital.

The tyranny is the process by which that decision was made and the lack of pubic discourse going forward.

As soon as someone questioned the necessity, there was an immediate backlash to shutdown any conversation.  No attempt at increasing the understanding on both side, just "I'm in charge and you're going to do it or else."  Not an effective leadership style in the USAF (most of the time), and certainly not in a free society where the lawmakers and policy deciders are in theory answerable to the voting public.

Wear your mask, I really don't care, but be honest that most decisions regarding the perma-pandemic and mask mandates seem to have a strong political bent to them.

Again, you may see it differently, and that's ok...just as long as we can still have a civil discourse as a country about it.

[di1630]

My base is requiring masks again. Dumb as fooook

[Biff_T]

11 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

I don't accept a whole lot of mandates.  And that makes me a weirdo.  And that's too bad. You have demonstrated over and over that you love mandates.  You are bringing them out of the woodwork.  You love mandates, they make you feel comfortable.......

[pawnman]

13 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

I don't accept a whole lot of mandates.  And that makes me a weirdo.  And that's too bad. You have demonstrated over and over that you love mandates.  You are bringing them out of the woodwork.  You love mandates, they make you feel comfortable.  I wish they didn't.  I wish you still had an ounce of pioneering blood in you.  I wish you still had a fighting spirit.  And I wish you never flew on the B-1.

And I wish you'd never joined this forum, but here we are. 

Have fun driving drunk with no seatbelt. 

[Lockjaw]

11 hours ago, pawnman said:

Have fun driving drunk with no seatbelt. 

Look man, I agree the ad hominem was uncalled for (as it is in any environment).

But your comparison is BS. Have you ever seen a seatbelt disclaimer in an automobile manual, warning people that it may not protect them in a collision? Have you ever seen an alcoholic beverage container tell people that driving after drinking it is just fine?

Because here's the thing. Any surgical mask container you pick up ever since it became popular post COVID has a disclaimer about how it is not tested to protect against COVID 19 on the side.

I'll say it again. If you want to mask up, go for it. The evidence for it is...not great. Therefore, it should not be mandated in normal medical settings in view of its downsides for medical treatment and communication.

[uhhello]

22 minutes ago, Lockjaw said:

Look man, I agree the ad hominem was uncalled for (as it is in any environment).

But your comparison is BS. Have you ever seen a seatbelt disclaimer in an automobile manual, warning people that it may not protect them in a collision? Have you ever seen an alcoholic beverage container tell people that driving after drinking it is just fine?

Because here's the thing. Any surgical mask container you pick up ever since it became popular post COVID has a disclaimer about how it is not tested to protect against COVID 19 on the side.

I'll say it again. If you want to mask up, go for it. The evidence for it is...not great. Therefore, it should not be mandated in normal medical settings in view of its downsides for medical treatment and communication.

We're years into this thing and people still don't understand why the medical/govt/and everyone else want you to wear a mask.  It's not for your protection.  It's to REDUCE transmission of the virus.  I hate wearing the thing and think it's pretty pointless at this stage.  I've made a few trips to the VA hospital lately and have no issue wearing it inside there.  

[Lawman]

We're years into this thing and people still don't understand why the medical/govt/and everyone else want you to wear a mask.  It's not for your protection.  It's to REDUCE transmission of the virus.  I hate wearing the thing and think it's pretty pointless at this stage.  I've made a few trips to the VA hospital lately and have no issue wearing it inside there.  

Bro how long have you spent in the employee of the government. The government acting has as much to do with appearing to be making an impact as actually making any impact. In fact it’s probably more the first one and if it happens to be impactful, bonus points.

There is no doubt that wearing the RIGHT mask does actually make a measurable impact on you or any other possible vector spreading your nasty into the Gen pop. Problem is the right mask wasn’t what we sent people out with. Anything short of fishnets was pretty much accepted… and now you have a mass group of people with the feeling of “I have a mask so it’s cool” going out and interacting to plus up that size group because hey the government said it’s ok.

Likewise how many people did you see wearing latex gloves. That works…. If you’re stripping gloves between movement and interaction. If you wear those gloves continuously (every gate guard I’ve interacted with) you actually increase the places you spread virus because it has a longer life on that glove than it does in your bare skin. That was actually a point brought to the post commander by our infectious disease OIC (friend of mine). Obviously the guy with a medical degree doesn’t know anything a star knows, so we just ignored it and the gate guards are still wearing them.


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[TreeA10]

Ineffective masks poorly fiitted and gloves worn continuously throughout the day will stop the virus!  What's next? Sacrificing virgins in volcanoes to stop earthquakes? Maybe chopping heads off to honor the gods to make the rain fall. A stupid person is scary, am ignorant mob is dangerous. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by TreeA10

[waveshaper]

37 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

What's next? Sacrificing virgins in volcanoes to stop earthquakes? Maybe chopping heads off to honor the gods to make the train fall. A stupid person is scary, am ignorant mob is dangerous. 

What's next/one more: I'm surprised they aren't mandating vaccinating fetuses (babies) before they abort them.

 

[pawnman]

9 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

Look man, I agree the ad hominem was uncalled for (as it is in any environment).

But your comparison is BS. Have you ever seen a seatbelt disclaimer in an automobile manual, warning people that it may not protect them in a collision? Have you ever seen an alcoholic beverage container tell people that driving after drinking it is just fine?

Because here's the thing. Any surgical mask container you pick up ever since it became popular post COVID has a disclaimer about how it is not tested to protect against COVID 19 on the side.

I'll say it again. If you want to mask up, go for it. The evidence for it is...not great. Therefore, it should not be mandated in normal medical settings in view of its downsides for medical treatment and communication.

Seatbelts are mandated. People wearing seatbelts have still died in car accidents. 

He said he wasn't a fan of any mandates. We can argue the merits of wearing a mask in a hospital if you want, but his statement that he hated all mandates seems a bit silly for someone in a profession built on safety rules like aviation. 

[Lockjaw]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

Seatbelts are mandated. People wearing seatbelts have still died in car accidents.  

Yup, tracking. That said, the data is convincing that seatbelts significantly reduce the possibility of people from being thrown about like rag dolls in a significant car accident/rollover. Do they fail occasionally? Yes. Do people who wear them still die because of other factors? Yes. Been to a lot of accidents. Still haven't seen a vehicle come with a disclaimer that the restraining devices "will not provide any protection."

13 hours ago, uhhello said:

I hate wearing the thing and think it's pretty pointless at this stage.  I've made a few trips to the VA hospital lately and have no issue wearing it inside there.  

If you hate wearing the thing and think it's pointless...why are you fine with mandatory usage in one particular environment? I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to be a smartass.

I'll reiterate: N95s are effective against airborne infections, but they need to be properly fitted and used once. Medical gloves or Tyvek suits aren't used more than once - and there are good reasons for that. 

[uhhello]

1 hour ago, Lockjaw said:

Yup, tracking. That said, the data is convincing that seatbelts significantly reduce the possibility of people from being thrown about like rag dolls in a significant car accident/rollover. Do they fail occasionally? Yes. Do people who wear them still die because of other factors? Yes. Been to a lot of accidents. Still haven't seen a vehicle come with a disclaimer that the restraining devices "will not provide any protection."

If you hate wearing the thing and think it's pointless...why are you fine with mandatory usage in one particular environment? I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to be a smartass.

I'll reiterate: N95s are effective against airborne infections, but they need to be properly fitted and used once. Medical gloves or Tyvek suits aren't used more than once - and there are good reasons for that. 

A proper surgical mask of the type given out at entrances to VA hospitals aren't "useless" in the right situations such as at hospitals where fellow humans go with weakened immune systems.  Again, the mask isn't to protect the wearer, its to lessen the transmission possibilities.  My useless comment was out in the general public going about everyday life where you still see people wearing simple cloth masks or bandanas.  

[Lockjaw]

18 hours ago, uhhello said:

A proper surgical mask of the type given out at entrances to VA hospitals aren't "useless" in the right situations such as at hospitals where fellow humans go with weakened immune systems.  Again, the mask isn't to protect the wearer, its to lessen the transmission possibilities.  My useless comment was out in the general public going about everyday life where you still see people wearing simple cloth masks or bandanas.  

You are aware that the CDC itself stated that 10 Randomized Controlled Trials from 1946-2018 found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks?