Was flying for the Air Force worth it?

[dream big]

On 7/8/2023 at 4:12 PM, General Chang said:

Look for ground jobs that suit your fancy (Exec, CAG, DS) and volunteer like crazy for everything.  That will create a lasting career.  Trust me, you will thank me later.

What’s with all the Chang hate? You all know he is trolling right? 

[Standby]

3 hours ago, dream big said:

What’s with all the Chang hate? You all know he is trolling right? 

I think the downvotes are warranted. Yes, we know he’s trolling…but it’s very bush league. We know Chang is better than what he’s posted recently. Slipping in his old age. 

[BashiChuni]

5 hours ago, dream big said:

What’s with all the Chang hate? You all know he is trolling right? 

chang is a hero

[pawnman]

16 hours ago, dream big said:

What’s with all the Chang hate? You all know he is trolling right? 

Ironically, his trolling is just the same mentoring any O-6 or GO would give a young aviator.

[Biff_T]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

Ironically, his trolling is just the same mentoring any O-6 or GO would give a young aviator.

This lol. 

[BeefBears]

8 hours ago, pawnman said:

Ironically, his trolling is just the same mentoring any O-6 or GO would give a young aviator.

Maybe O-6/GOs have been mentoring sarcastically this whole time.  Peak trolling involves turning combat aviators into little bitch boy secretaries that hate their lives.

Damn, im going to go find some lieutenants and sarcastically tell them to seek out exec jobs and see how many of them are dumb enough to do it. 

[Grabby]

Everyone will have their own take, but the only reason the flying was worth it for me was getting paid to build my time.  I loved UPT but rather despised flying the C-17.  So many bros loved it, so I’m sure many would disagree with my sentiment. Maybe I would have really enjoyed the CAF, but the absolutely ridiculous ops tempo and high % of flying in shitty places wasn’t, for me, the ideal way to spend my 20’s/30’s.  I make a great living flying as a civilian, but there are so many other routes out there.

Did I fly with some great people?  Of course.  Did I fly missions that civilians will never get to experience?  Yep.  But my GF has travelled a metric shit ton with friends and co-workers, building meaningful memories, to consistently amazing locales while making WAY more than any mil pilot.  She’s as close with her friends as I was with my SQ mates.  

It’s definitely opened my eyes to what’s available to smart, hard working people, and over the long run I feel like I would have had a significantly better work-life balance while becoming financially secure much earlier had I gone a different direction.  

[Standby]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:36 PM, Grabby said:

Everyone will have their own take, but the only reason the flying was worth it for me was getting paid to build my time.  I loved UPT but rather despised flying the C-17.  So many bros loved it, so I’m sure many would disagree with my sentiment. Maybe I would have really enjoyed the CAF, but the absolutely ridiculous ops tempo and high % of flying in shitty places wasn’t, for me, the ideal way to spend my 20’s/30’s.  I make a great living flying as a civilian, but there are so many other routes out there.

Did I fly with some great people?  Of course.  Did I fly missions that civilians will never get to experience?  Yep.  But my GF has travelled a metric shit ton with friends and co-workers, building meaningful memories, to consistently amazing locales while making WAY more than any mil pilot.  She’s as close with her friends as I was with my SQ mates.  

It’s definitely opened my eyes to what’s available to smart, hard working people, and over the long run I feel like I would have had a significantly better work-life balance while becoming financially secure much earlier had I gone a different direction.  

Thanks for your service. That being said…it sounds like the AF is better off without you. 

[Grabby]

26 minutes ago, Standby said:

Thanks for your service. That being said…it sounds like the AF is better off without you. 

Possibly, but I think that’s arrogantly presumptuous of you to say.  

I would be willing to bet there’s not a single person I served with who would think I had any pessimism or a poor attitude.  Quite the contrary. Additionally, I am grateful for my time in but age has brought a certain perspective, for me, that does not exist within your sounding booth.  I don’t think that warrants your need to make such a shitty personal jab.

 

 

[Boomer6]

If Standby is doing a GenChoad impression, then it was spot on. 
 

If not, then youngins’ take note of how to spot the Bob perspective. 

[Standby]

1 hour ago, Grabby said:

Possibly, but I think that’s arrogantly presumptuous of you to say.  

I would be willing to bet there’s not a single person I served with who would think I had any pessimism or a poor attitude.  Quite the contrary. Additionally, I am grateful for my time in but age has brought a certain perspective, for me, that does not exist within your sounding booth.  I don’t think that warrants your need to make such a shitty personal jab.

 

 

It’s not a shitty personal jab. I’m glad you’ve gained clarity after service. You didn’t think it was worth it, and that’s fine. In the same spirit, I think it’s better for the service that you moved on. I haven’t discredited what you did, nor was I being sarcastic about the appreciation. 
 

That being said: the institution doesn’t need people staying beyond UPT ADSC when they are clearly unhappy with their lot in life. 
 

Bring on the downvotes folks. You know the rules when you go to UPT…nobody’s fault but your own if you get dealt a subpar hand. Not everybody gets their #1, and we can’t all be stationed at some tropical island in some flying club. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Standby

[Standby]

47 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

If not, then youngins’ take note of how to spot the Bob perspective.

It’s military service, not an airline or some fuck-fuck aircraft owners group. If you wanted more financial security or a bigger say in what you were flying, that’s fine…do it somewhere else. The AF doesn’t pass you a 10 year ADSC in a dark alley somewhere. In the same way that you’re aware of the ADSC, you acknowledge the existence of the phrase “needs of the Air Force.” If that doesn’t sit well with you, then don’t do it. For those who choose to gamble their fate against military service, I sincerely hope it works out. My career hasn’t gone the way I envisioned, but it is what it is. 

[Boomer6]

None of that has anything to do with telling a guy that answered the call, was a presumably good pilot/officer, and then decided another 10yrs wasn’t for him that the AF is better off without him. The AF is better off without pilots that only want to do ten years? I don’t think the current “needs of the service” as far as pilots are concerned fits that viewpoint. If the AF desires pilots to want to stay in longer than 10yrs I think recent history will show that “don’t worry we’ll find someone to replace you” doesn’t work well as a retention/recruiting slogan.

I know many young captains and even LTs that heard the same statements from the bobs and decided they were punching. Not for lack of job satisfaction etc, but because they had no faith in leadership.

It shouldn’t be unfathomable to imagine why the trope the bobs are spitting results in dudes telling the younger generation to think twice before serving

[FourFans]

2 hours ago, Grabby said:

I would be willing to bet there’s not a single person I served with who would think I had any pessimism or a poor attitude.  Quite the contrary

But,

On 7/12/2023 at 3:36 PM, Grabby said:

the only reason the flying was worth it for me was getting paid to build my time.  I loved UPT but rather despised flying the C-17.  

Gotta call a spade a spade: that sound's pretty pessimistic.

If financial security and work-life balance were your known goals when you started...why the hell did you join the military?

Let's be honest, we all made some rash quick decisions with long reaching consequences when were in our 20's.  But I'd say you're doing yourself a disservice with that hind-sight 2020 type of analysis where you say you hated it but imagine that you didn't have a poor attitude.  Being miserable is 90% perspective and attitude, and 10% situation.  What you choose to focus on is what you focus on.  If you focus on the suck, yeah, you'll be hate it. 

So say that mil flying was only worth it to get to your civilian job is really, really, jaded.  If you were so unhappy, trust me, your peers knew it regardless of how much optimism you painted over it.  We've all known that guy.  I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it.  I was there too, and yeah, there was a LOT of suck.  But no amount of wallowing in misery ever improved it, so most of us chose to enjoy what we could enjoy, missed birthdays and holidays included.

Frankly, dudes with the "get me out of here" attitude were the ones that poisoned the well and tended to bring morale down.  I've worked with enough of them to know that invariably it's something else going on in life.  Whatever it is or was, you're not alone.

Edited July 14, 2023 by FourFans

[Standby]

16 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

None of that has anything to do with telling a guy that answered the call, was a presumably good pilot/officer, and then decided another 10yrs wasn’t for him that the AF is better off without him.

If you publicly state that you despised your MWS, and think your time spent in service was only worthwhile to build hours for an airline…then ya, the service IS better off with you not in it.

[Boomer6]

There’s a difference between anonymously saying you despised your time in your MWS because you didn’t like the style of flying and the life of a MAF pilot wasn’t for you, and making that known to anyone in your sq that will listen. Some of the most liked and high speed dudes I know did not like being in the CAF/AF for various reasons, but you’d never know it unless you were bros with them and specifically asked the question. Plenty of dudes crushing the flying hour program so they can get the mins for the airlines. 

The AF didn’t agree to train someone to be a pilot, but only if they did it because all they wanted to do was to serve. The AF gets something out of it and so does the individual. I see nothing wrong with someone deciding to join the AF to with one of their main goals being to build hours for the airlines. If they’re a good dude, do their job, and are a good officer then I’d say those are ppl the AF needs.

[Danger41]

That's one of the great untold stories in this massive retention discussion. There's plenty of folks that I wish could be retained that have moved onto bigger and better things, and I wish them all the success in the world. There's another large portion of folks that are just absolute buzzkills and drains on the squadron that are net negatives to anything besides being a "1" in the pilots column. I'm thankful they raised their hands and did their job, but it's usually better for both parties to move onto something else.

[gearhog]

43 minutes ago, Standby said:

If you publicly state that you despised your MWS, and think your time spent in service was only worthwhile to build hours for an airline…then ya, the service IS better off with you not in it.

Everyone who "loves" flying for the AF just because they get to fly.

 

 

 

[Stoker]

People spend years of their life pursuing the goal of becoming an Air Force pilot, and then the Air Force does its level best to make you regret it. It isn't the individual's fault that many (most?) people who go this route end up disillusioned with the bureaucracy they work in.

If you had a genuine, WW3 crisis that directly threatened the US, I think you'd have lines out the door of people willing to leave their airline jobs and put a flight suit back on.

[Standby]

4 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

There’s a difference between anonymously saying you despised your time in your MWS because you didn’t like the style of flying and the life of a MAF pilot wasn’t for you, and making that known to anyone in your sq that will listen. Some of the most liked and high speed dudes I know did not like being in the CAF/AF for various reasons, but you’d never know it unless you were bros with them and specifically asked the question. Plenty of dudes crushing the flying hour program so they can get the mins for the airlines. 

I don’t think I’m communicating effectively because you aren’t understanding what I’m saying. 
1. I have not accused @Grabby of being a shit bag, nor have I questioned his contributions in service. 
 

2. Becoming an AF pilot is beneficial to both the service and the individual. 
 

3. Whether you believe it it not, hating your job does affect those around you…and it can be cancerous. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Standby

[BE36]

On point #3 though, if one of the Bros is not enjoying his or her service, for whatever reason, surely the right answer isn’t ‘gtfo we are better off without you.’

In some cases, the institution has to be to blame for turning good officers into jaded salt monsters.  

[Standby]

26 minutes ago, Stoker said:

People spend years of their life pursuing the goal of becoming an Air Force pilot, and then the Air Force does its level best to make you regret it. It isn't the individual's fault that many (most?) people who go this route end up disillusioned with the bureaucracy they work in.

If you had a genuine, WW3 crisis that directly threatened the US, I think you'd have lines out the door of people willing to leave their airline jobs and put a flight suit back on.

Yes it is. Externalities undeniably have an impact on your outlook in life…but at the end of the day, YOU decide how YOU want to feel.

I want to believe this as well. Let’s hope it never comes to that. 

[Grabby]

I didn’t mean for any of this to be an indicator of how I felt during my time in.  I wasn’t upset while I was in.  I’m not upset now.  I was honestly pretty thrilled during my 12 years on AD.  And no one ever heard me say a single bad thing about our jet, ever.  Maybe I longed internally for a very different mission, but who ing cares.  I had a chance and it didn’t happen.  Boo hoo.
 

Not loving your MWS can be kept close to your heart, or realized slowly after years pass.  I don’t love the airlines, but damned if I’m not the first to tell my fellow pilots how fortunate we are with a smile on my face, and I’m the first to suggest drinks and day trips while on the road.  Anything but a slam-clicker.

 

I merely wanted to be transparent, on an anonymous forum, about my hindsight on if flying in the AF was worth it.  It took an enormous toll on my family and marriage.  I saw my son for, at best, 1/3 of his life while often flying empty jets across the ponds and in the AOR.  The 30 yo me didn’t care nearly as much as the gray haired me.  In retrospect I still feel fortunate and am grateful for the friendships, memories and ratings, but I have come to the conclusion that the AF definitely took a lot, and I probably would have gone a different route if I had to do it over.

 

If that makes me toxic, I guess I’m toxic.  Judging oneself is never easy and rarely accurate.  I definitely felt like I was a solid bro who was always willing to push and smile while doing it.  I just felt like deep down it was not as fulfilling as I initially thought it was going to be.

 

I’ll bow out to not clog the thread anymore, just felt like engaging when reading from strangers who don’t know me that I was not an asset but rather a detriment 

[Boomer6]

3 hours ago, Standby said:

3. Whether you believe it it not, hating your job does effect those around you…and it can be cancerous. 

Agreed. Ppl with low emotional intelligence, little self-awareness, who don’t care about those they work with, or who embody a millennialist personality will definitely make life less pleasant for those around them.

Believe it or not there are plenty of ppl in the world that work at jobs they don’t like, but because they were raised to take pride in their work and have a positive attitude you’d never know it.

[Majestik Møøse]

You could plop two of the same guy into the Air Force (or any other organization) and get completely different outcomes regarding performance, experience, and morale. Or you could have guys from wildly different backgrounds reach the same outcomes. The morale and personal outlook certainly varies by assignment and time, and sometimes you get far enough behind the morale power curve that staying in the Air Force is no longer worth it to either you or the organization. I think that’s all that @Standby was trying to say. Everyone, including the government, is glad for the work you did.