Clark Griswold Posted May 27, 2014 Author Share Posted May 27, 2014 "While Europe Slept" is a good read regarding immigration into Europe. "The Last Days of Europe" and "State of Emergency" are also good primers on how the West is doing immigration all wrong for the last oh 50+ years or so. Too many immigrants, virtually no screening for immigrants that will assimilate and have something to offer and no strong effort at assimilation when here. The elites of the West just can't get it that immigration is not necessarily always enriching to a nation, that you may actually be letting in people that will not fit into your society, that Western values are not necessarily triumphant just by exposure to them. Many immigrants anyway are encouraged not to integrate as a faction of the Left of virtually the entire Western world has decided that anything like assimilation or adapting to their new country is wrong, bigoted and these people have a right to be pissed off at the society that allows them in and helps them, the counter culture morphed into some kind of deranged suicidal movement hell bent on destroying any backbone in the West and won't stop until all of it is dragged into the morass. Ok, rant complete. Not against immigrants or immigration, just the way we practice it now, which pretty much is mixture of naive-stupid-crazy-suicidal. Back to topic though, at some point something has got to give to get the US Military on the border in force, deploying State Defense Forces might do it, just by poaching on what has been traditionally the Federal Gov. territory and shaming them into doing it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I must say that I agree with the libertarian wing here, for all the bullshit people spew about competition and the free market, when their own economic security is threatened, they become protectionist as hell. It's like "the free market is best as long as everyone but me suffers the drawbacks". This, on a forum full of people who have jobs and extremely specialized skill sets that no poor immigrant could ever dream to have without a miracle. Simply put, immigrants make it cheaper to live in the states. Not only that, but they make our lives more productive. Time is money, and I am far more productive doing my highly paid job I have been trained for, than I am at doing unpaid manual labor tasks. So instead, I employ illegal immigrants to do the things I don't want to do, either directly, (like housekeeping, gardening, etc), or indirectly (buying their fruit, vegetables, purchasing goods/services from firms that hire illegals). I can take that money and spend it on things like services, consumer goods, or financial instruments, which is where the bulk of our economy is really geared towards. I want to create jobs for Americans just as much as the next guy, but creating shitty minimum wage work doesn't help us as a nation. It ironically makes us more likely to backslide into socialism, once wage workers realize that relying on the government is by far their best option. Illegal immigration is a fucking tidal wave of human effort and desperation over an impossibly long stretch of land. Nobody is going to pay for the military to patrol the border. Politicians will promise it and then never do it because it's fucking retarded, and it gets cheap, easy votes from people too naive and ignorant to know what is going on. Even if you had the manpower to detect border crossers, there's not enough manpower to round up every one of them, and it costs an illegal nothing to get across (except maybe paying a coyote), and it costs us far more to stop them. Which means they'll just try again in a couple days. A fence is just a dumb, ineffective waste of time and money. It makes for a good talking point to get cheap political support, though. The only realistic, feasible solution is to get out ahead of this thing and harness it for our economic advantage. Let the free market rule on this one. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Christ- I may have to reevaluate my position if Joe is agreeing with me. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busdriver Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Well said Joe. The immigration is bad, and they don't assimilate meme has been around forever; Chinese, Irish, Italian, German, Soviet Eastern Block, etc. Part of the reason illegals don't assimilate well is because they're illegal, they have to band together or risk getting caught. The other part is going where they're comfortable, that takes a couple generations to fix unless they get caught in the low income crime trap, which is worsened by being illegal since they can't rise above it regardless of effort. The barrier for legal entry is too high, forcing people to enter illegally. If legal entry was easier (but managed appropriately) less would enter illegally, thus making cracking down the criminals hiding amidst the sea of current illegals much easier as their sea would become a puddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 (edited) Simply put, immigrants make it cheaper to live in the states. Not only that, but they make our lives more productive. Time is money, and I am far more productive doing my highly paid job I have been trained for, than I am at doing unpaid manual labor tasks. So instead, I employ illegal immigrants to do the things I don't want to do, either directly, (like housekeeping, gardening, etc), or indirectly (buying their fruit, vegetables, purchasing goods/services from firms that hire illegals). I can take that money and spend it on things like services, consumer goods, or financial instruments, which is where the bulk of our economy is really geared towards. I want to create jobs for Americans just as much as the next guy, but creating shitty minimum wage work doesn't help us as a nation. It ironically makes us more likely to backslide into socialism, once wage workers realize that relying on the government is by far their best option. No, they keep the poor and working class of a first world nation from ever having anything by keeping wages artificially low by allowing corporations and wealthier individuals to employ people who work off the books, for less than legal wages in shitty conditions and who either bring with them problems, require gov assistance and keep our supposedly free market from balancing itself The free market only works if there is rule of law, turning a blind or apathetic eye to illegal immigration / unsecure borders is suicidal and knowingly employing illegals is no different than buying stolen goods. BTW, our highly specialized skill set is under attack. When aircraft that are flagged in other nations start flying domestic routes with aircrew and support who work for less money that 'Mericans, the end is nigh for having a protected occupation, even for pilots. How to Revive Airline Competition Edited May 28, 2014 by Clark Griswold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, they keep the poor and working class of a first world nation from ever having anything by keeping wages artificially low by allowing corporations and wealthier individuals to employ people who work off the books, for less than legal wages in shitty conditions and who either bring with them problems, require gov assistance and keep our supposedly free market from balancing itself The free market only works if there is rule of law, turning a blind or apathetic eye to illegal immigration / unsecure borders is suicidal and knowingly employing illegals is no different than buying stolen goods. So you're in favor of raising the minimum wage then? To what tune? $10.10 or $15- those seem to be the two numbers I see most often being thrown around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, they keep the poor and working class of a first world nation from ever having anything by keeping wages artificially low by allowing corporations and wealthier individuals to employ people who work off the books, for less than legal wages in shitty conditions and who either bring with them problems, require gov assistance and keep our supposedly free market from balancing itself The free market only works if there is rule of law, turning a blind or apathetic eye to illegal immigration / unsecure borders is suicidal and knowingly employing illegals is no different than buying stolen goods. Your concept of economics is weird. If you have a cheap source of labor that is fulfilling needs and winning in competition with higher paid legal sources, then that is the free market at work. If the black market fulfills things the legal market cannot, then, like air and water, people will seek the path of least resistance. As it stands, people choose to employ millions upon millions of illegal immigrants despite your moral objections. This is America, and money talks -- people will flock to the cheaper option given a similar result/product. IMO, you simply haven't made the case to justify crushing the federal budget with even more expense just to fix this problem with solutions that most likely won't work. Nothing short of a literal genocide on the Rio Grande will fix the problem. Vertigo's suggestions just seem far more plausible. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Economics mixed with politics gets messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 29, 2014 Author Share Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) So you're in favor of raising the minimum wage then? To what tune? $10.10 or $15- those seem to be the two numbers I see most often being thrown around. Yes, I think raising the minimum wage would be a good idea but I also think MASSIVELY simplifying our Orwellian tax code (both corporate & individual) while lowering the corporate tax and lowering the marginal rates for individuals are a good ideas also. Not exactly related, but could be politically possible to both labor and business oriented political actors but we can't get anything done anymore so put that in the snowball's chance in hell column... Your concept of economics is weird. If you have a cheap source of labor that is fulfilling needs and winning in competition with higher paid legal sources, then that is the free market at work. If the black market fulfills things the legal market cannot, then, like air and water, people will seek the path of least resistance. As it stands, people choose to employ millions upon millions of illegal immigrants despite your moral objections. This is America, and money talks -- people will flock to the cheaper option given a similar result/product. IMO, you simply haven't made the case to justify crushing the federal budget with even more expense just to fix this problem with solutions that most likely won't work. Nothing short of a literal genocide on the Rio Grande will fix the problem. Vertigo's suggestions just seem far more plausible. National policy can not be solely on what is beneficial to certain business interests, we had a war about this around the 1860's or so... there was a labor system that made a lot of people very rich directly by producing a commodity very cheaply and indirectly by supplying that commodity cheaply for production but we decided as a nation that it was not right and we weren't going to allow it anymore. Your right money talks and people flock to the cheaper option but does that mean we should allow: Goods produced by slave/child labor and/or sweatshop labor? Counterfeit or stolen goods produced and supplied illicitly? Goods produced from enemy nations to be freely traded in our economy? Should we allow Iran to directly supply the US energy market? Why do we control commerce and business on the national, state & local level? Should we let toxic waste dumps be put in the middle of low income neighborhoods because the land is cheaper? I also have to take issue with your idea that a genocide is required to secure the border and that it would be unbelievably expensive. Israel built a 143 mile fence system in two years for a cost of $377 million, it works and has dropped illegal crossing from 14,715 in 2010 to 36 in 2013 for the same stretch of the Sinai. We don't have to fence nor should be fence the entire border, we need only fence the adjoining urban areas, road crossings, and patrol with a combination of Federal & State LE in areas adjoining those areas, let the National Guard patrol the remote and wilderness area. The cost is not so great we can not afford it and it DIRECTLY adds to the security and sovereignty of the United States of America by keeping people out that are attempting to cross into it illegally. The combined cost of the CBP & ICE is $18 billion, that is equal to 2% of the entire DoD budget. It cost about $400K for every soldier to support & pay on average each soldier during the Iraq War, this is just a WAG but even at $200K per year to support & pay a soldier on the border, you could have 10,000 National Guardsmen for $2 billion or 0.2% of the DoD budget. That would average 5 soldiers for every mile of the 2,000 mile border but coordinating them with CBP, you have for a small cost in the overall scheme of things, actual boots on the ground in sufficient numbers to be in control. The ground and air support could average to $200K per soldier and you would still be spending only 0.4% of the entire DoD. Just to take another WAG at a part of the possible air support piece, you could have 25 MC-12s deployed to the border patrol mission, flying a 6 hour mission per day at a cost of $1,500 per flight hour (WAG) and cost $82 million per year for good ISR support, that is chump change in terms of the DoD budget and it would saturate high traffic areas with ISR to enhance your ground forces. Again, this is affordable, it is possible and it is what we should be doing. A border security system that is designed and funded to be effective does nothing more than stop illegal activity, if you have a problem with our labor & immigration laws then try to change them legally. Do not advocate for allowing illegal alien criminals, because they are criminals, to be allowed to keep committing their crime(s) by confusing the argument (whether or not we should defend our nation, enforce our laws and assert our sovereignty) by raising the red herring and emotional argument of it is cheap labor that benefits some businesses and individuals as being in some ways economically efficient so therefore, screw it let's allow it. The almighty dollar is not the end all be all of our decision making, it is a balance of what is right, prudent and in our long-term interest. Edited May 29, 2014 by Clark Griswold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prozac Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Better stop shopping at Walmart then. Shit, better just stop shopping anywhere. There is nothing moral about the global economy. Doesn't mean things can't improve, but you either live with that fact or wrap yourself in ignorance. Most of this country has chosen the latter btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M2 Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Not a good sign... ‘We Have Never Experienced This’: Chilling Drug Cartel-Style Threats Hit Texas Billboards Another reason for Operation Secure the Damn Border to go into high gear. Rumors (which are being denied) are that it was all a part of a publicity stunt. Got this out of a law enforcement report this morning... New information has been released indicating that the two alleged "narco billboards" posted in East Texas just before the start of Memorial Day were not likely associated with Mexican drug cartel activity. Instead, there has been speculation that they were actually posted by the New Era Canadian Film Company as part of a movie they are in the processing of producing (entitled Plata o Plomo and scheduled for release in 2016). However, when questioned about the billboards, New Era CEO Andrea Hidalgo made the following comment: "It is not something that I put up or I paid for, but this is something that I am completely and totally in support of." Hidalgo further added that a marketing campaign with similar artwork to that seen in the "Plato o Plomo" billboard will be used for marketing purposes prior to the release of the film. Here's the original article... Canadian film company denies involvement in disturbing El Paso billboards El Paso, TX (KTSM) — Hundreds of El Paso motorists were shocked to see a disturbing message on a billboard as they drove along I-10 early Thursday morning. The billboard read "Plata-O-Plomo," which in Spanish literally translates to 'Silver or Lead" is a Spanish slang that means take a bribe or suffer consequences. It has been commonly associated with the cartel violence in Juarez. The sign also had a mannequin, wearing a full business suit hanging from the billboard. The billboard appeared overnight near 9400 Gateway East, near Americas exit, facing the westbound lanes. It is directly above EF Building Materials. When called for comment on the billboard, EF Building Materials declined comment. Mike Mons, the General Manager with Lamar Billboard, the company that owns the sign is adamant that Lamar had nothing to do with the painting of the sign. Mons said that the sign was already painted black, and was being prepared for a new billboard. Crews last checked the sign at 4 pm Wednesday night. Mons said that the Lamar Billboard in question has lights that would have been on all night, illuminating the billboard, but to his knowledge, no one called to report anything unusual. El Paso Fire Department assisted with the removal of the mannequin from the billboard by 9:30 a.m. Mons said that Lamar Billboard will immediately paint over the sign as soon as El Paso Police conclude their investigation. El Paso Police report a 2nd billboard with a hanging mannequin was found alongside I-10 in East Central El Paso. According to a media release, the billboard, along the 5200 block of Gateway East had "Dying for Drugs" painted on it, as well as a hanging mannequin. EPPD officials went on to say, "The investigation is on-going, but we do not have any information to suggest this was done to target any individual person or business at this time." Meanwhile, a Canadian film company is denying involvement in the placement of two bizarre billboard messages along El Paso's freeway. New Era Films confirmed it is currently in the planning stages of a film titled Plata o Plumo. The same phrase, which roughly translates to "silver or lead" or "money or bullets," was found sprawled on a billboard along I-10 Thursday morning, along with a dangling mannequin dressed in a suit. "It is not something that I put up or I paid for," said New Era CEO Andrea Hidalgo. When asked whether she or someone from her company orchestrated the displays, Hidalgo said, "no," but added, "This is something that I am completely and totally in support of." Hidalgo said a marketing campaign with similar artwork, including the image of a hanging suited mannequin, has been planned worldwide ahead of the film's release, scheduled for 2016. Plata o Plomo, a fictional tale of drug cartel violence, is set along the El Paso-Juárez border. El Paso Police said those responsible for Thursday’s billboard displays could face, at a minimum, charges of criminal mischief and criminal trespass. Those charges could be upgraded, according to a Department spokesman. Video at the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share Posted May 30, 2014 Just watched the video from the link, that is quite a stretch to believe the Canadian film company had nothing to do with it. When I first saw it, I decided to repost for the discussion but it reminded me of an article I read a while ago, the author made the case the Cartels will keep the mayhem in El Norte to an acceptable level and in Mexico to just below a threshold that would trigger a US response (military or direct LE involvement). I agree with that idea and it surprised me that they would start to invite a massive US security and LE response in the border areas. Still think a physical barrier and surveillance system with a NG mission on the border is what we need but glad that it appears to be a hoax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Mexican Military Helicopter Fires on Border Patrol Agents After Crossing Into U.S. During Drug Operation US, WORLD | Today at 9:46 | By Dave Urbanski Mexican Military Helicopter Fires on Border Patrol Agents After Crossing Into U.S. During Drug Operation A Mexican military helicopter crossed the U.S. border into Arizona and fired on U.S. Border Patrol agents during a drug operation Tuesday before flying back into Mexico, Border Patrol No injuries to agents or damage to U.S. property were reported, a Border Patrol spokesman said, according to KVOA-TV. The helicopter fired two shots at the agents early Tuesday morning as part of a "drug interdiction operation," Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame told KVOA. "[A] Mexican law enforcement helicopter crossed approximately 100 yards north into Arizona nearly 8 miles southwest of the village of San Miguel on the Tohono O'odham Indian Nation while on a drug interdiction operation near the border," Adame said in a statement. "Two shots were fired from the helicopter but no injuries or damage to U.S. property were reported. The incident is currently under investigation." Mexican officials contacted U.S. authorities soon after and apologized for the incident, Tucson sector Border Patrol union president Art del Cueto told KVOA. The incident took place on the Tohono O'odham Nation, which resides in southern-central Arizona and parts of northern Mexico. From The Blaze Not good - another reason to formally control (with coordination with the Mexican gov) the borderhttp://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/27/mexican-military-helicopter-fires-on-border-patrol-agents-after-crossing-into-u-s-during-drug-operation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 What's crap is that they get to 'apologize' but yet we still have a Marine sitting in one of their Mexican prisons for something that should only require an 'apology'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 (edited) God bless Charles Krauthammer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWTbRS0N-gk Full video here Edited July 3, 2014 by Clark Griswold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waveshaper Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 High-Caliber Gunfire Sends Border Patrol Scrambling on Rio Grande? .50 Cal suspected?http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/20/cartels-suspected-as-high-caliber-gunfire-sends-border-patrol-scrambling-on-rio/?intcmp=trending Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 High-Caliber Gunfire Sends Border Patrol Scrambling on Rio Grande? .50 Cal suspected?http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/20/cartels-suspected-as-high-caliber-gunfire-sends-border-patrol-scrambling-on-rio/?intcmp=trending Yeah, but you sourced foxnews, and they're racist...which now makes you and your post, racist. But seriously, I'd be cool with taking the Israeli approach on our southern border to fight the cartels. My minefield philosophy still works for me as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Multiple fences, barricades, minefield, and a moat with alligators with frickin' lasers on their heads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Don't forget the army of Terminators shoulder to shoulder across the whole border Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited July 20, 2014 by Clark Griswold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hot terminator chick version? Where do I send the money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hot terminator chick version? Where do I send the money? Yup and the Fembots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoleIt Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hot terminator chick version? Where do I send the money? Does anyone have a Boarder Patrol or DHS application handy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10percenttruth Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Handy, who said handy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I was a little young to fully appreciate Reagan's libertarian views on some things.http://youtu.be/Ixi9_cciy8w Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) Presidents Reagan and Bush were wrong. It is a surrender of sovereignty and explicit decay in the rule of law. No matter how well intentioned (supposedly) politicians and pundits say they are when speaking of the ultimate good intentions of most illegal immigrants (big supposition on their part) they are merely spouting sophistry on the road to being just another country where the rule of law is replaced by the rule of men, mobs or trends. Edited July 29, 2014 by Clark Griswold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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