Academy informant program

[PushItUp]

I will say this kids story sounds ######ed up, mostly OSI's handling of things, however, it usually takes a lot more than sneaking off campus to get kicked out. However, I'm sure there is more info about his circumstances the former cadet didn't offer up in this story

The kid was in my squadron, I would guess there is much more to the story than what he presents in this article. You only get recruited to "inform" on people if you got in trouble in the first place. The "you help us, we'll help you" type of thing. As for the demerits he racked up, he missed pretty much everything he would have to go to, even morning formation and breakfast....I doubt OSI would need to talk to him at 0630 and have him miss every formation possible. Also, the kid was the "runaway basic" he got nearly 200 demerits for that one event where he dressed up as a basic when he was sophomore and jumped a fence and ran away. The base sent out searches and I think they even locked down the base and basic training stopped ops. It was big deal and he got in a ton of trouble for it.

I didn't know him all really well, but I would be careful in believing the things he is saying to the media. It took him months to get kicked out, longer than usual because he was pulling out every stop to get a chance to stay. I understand he would want to stay and if the story is true, I'd be pissed as well. But when you don't go to anything, don't do your job, and fail the PFT your firstie year, I'd say it wasn't his involvement with OSI that caused him to get kicked out.

On another note, the informant "program" is an actual thing. If you're involved in a sketchy situation and can get more info, you help to inform OSI about what's going on and who's involved...pretty standard for law enforcement and investigation in general.I am very skeptical about the informant program as it is portrayed in the article, but cadets are used as informants if there's issues going on that they can help OSI with.

Edit: clarified "informants" as used at the Academy

Edited December 2, 2013 by PushItUp

[ClearedHot]

Why is everyone so upset, this type of system worked really well in the past.

The Secret Political Department (SPO), in addition to running the general system of informants, operated special informants to infiltrate suspected counterrevolutionary groups. Finally, the Transportation Department (TO), and the Operational Department (Operotdel), also ran their own special informants networks. In addition to these networks a separate network of special informants operated under the GULAG administration in labor camps, colonies, and special settlements.

[OverTQ]

Could be a new rank. Cadet Political Officer.

[Ram]

Could be a new rank. Cadet Political Officer.

On active duty, we call that the SARC.

[TreeA10]

Zampolit or political commissar would look great on a resume.

[Karl Hungus]

I'm trying to figure out why people are saying ASU, FSU, UW etc are a better option.

LOL.

[Herk Driver]

Bingo. Really the only way to be "coerced" into helping OSI is if they have the goods on you for some crime or other offense that, in the case of USAFA, will get you kicked out. The informants in this article were all hoping that their help to OSI would translate into being allowed to remain at the zoo. Obviously, they were not told the whole truth. Interesting that the article is light on what he did at the first party in order to get questioned in the first place. If I had to guess, it was a serious enough offense that would lead to dismissal and they used him to get what they could before he left, similar to the female that was interviewed.

BTW, OSI has an MO of asking questions about some event and then digging as deep as they can to uncover other crimes, etc that they can then leverage or coerce you with. When they are done with you, they feed you to the wolves/let the admin process take place.

I have said it before and others have said it in this thread. ALWAYS ask to speak to a lawyer. They will tell you that you are only a witness and that you have no reason to speak with a lawyer or that you are not suspected of anything so you are not entitled to one. That may be true, and if so, remind them that you are under no obligation to answer any of their questions, either as a witness or a suspect. NEVER, EVER talk to them without a lawyer or in this case you could just refuse to talk to them period. They will tell you that only the guilty don't talk or that you make yourself look guilty by refusing to talk. Don't fall for their tactics.

The kid was in my squadron, I would guess there is much more to the story than what he presents in this article. You only get recruited to "inform" on people if you got in trouble in the first place. The "you help us, we'll help you" type of thing. As for the demerits he racked up, he missed pretty much everything he would have to go to, even morning formation and breakfast....I doubt OSI would need to talk to him at 0630 and have him miss every formation possible. Also, the kid was the "runaway basic" he got nearly 200 demerits for that one event where he dressed up as a basic when he was sophomore and jumped a fence and ran away. The base sent out searches and I think they even locked down the base and basic training stopped ops. It was big deal and he got in a ton of trouble for it.

[HU&W]

Right...because the majority of the Air Force jumps out of planes.

Sure, when the plane's broke. Isn't that why the Academy has a jump team, to get them ready for ejection seat aircraft? No, I'm pretty sure the Academy jump school exists to provide grads with the USAFA Grad Badge (jump wings) so you can readily identify them once they are on AD.

Edited December 3, 2013 by HU&W

[TarHeelPilot]

Sure, when the plane's broke. Isn't that why the Academy has a jump team, to get them ready for ejection seat aircraft? No, I'm pretty sure the Academy jump school exists to provide grads with the USAFA Grad Badge (jump wings) so you can readily identify them once they are on AD.

Academy pledge pin.

[KState_Poke22]

I would love to see the service academies play D-III sports. Then you funnel all the football money into the soaring/wings of blue programs. One argument I've consistently heard for sports programs is recruiting-just imagine what having more jump teams would do for recruiting if you had a team jump into the MI vs Ohio state game in front of 110k people. You know-it might help us recruit people who want to fly and do shit the AF does.

You don't really know how college sports work do you? All that money USAFA gets from playing in the Mountain West won't be there in D-3...

[Bergman]

This should be mandatory reading for anyone considering USAFA.

What is it the zoomies say..."BOHICA"?

F*ck that place. If you're smart enough to get into the academy, you can get an ROTC scholarship at a school for normal people.

[Blue]

This should be mandatory reading for anyone considering USAFA.

What is it the zoomies say..."BOHICA"?

F*ck that place. If you're smart enough to get into the academy, you can get an ROTC scholarship at a school for normal people.

Gotta imagine that after a semester of Academy fun, plus these latest revalations, some cadets are going to come home for Xmas break and just decide not to come back.

[HeloDude]

In response to CH, I don't think much of anything will be done with regards to this issue/scandal. At best they (senior officers) will say that they have stopped the practice, and I'm not even sure that will truly happen.

As for the Academy itself, what a waste. Do we really need to pump that much money into government schools that produce the exact same product that an ROTC/OTS program can produce? I know there is history and tradition involved (especially with Annapolis and West Point), but why are they are truly needed today? I've met great and shitty officers from all commissioning sources, as well as plenty in between. Just like the commissaries (especially stateside), they are no longer needed and require additional funds to maintain status quo.

Senior officers are telling us that we need to 'change/adapt' and get away from things just because it's tradition...getting rid of the Academies would be a great start.

[Egghead]

This should be mandatory reading for anyone considering USAFA.

What is it the zoomies say..."BOHICA"?

F*ck that place. If you're smart enough to get into the academy, you can get an ROTC scholarship at a school for normal people.

Apparently not - got accepted to USAFA and did not receive any ROTC scholarships. I even put in for a techie major.

[Day Man]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding like an asshole or belittling your accomplishments, but are you by chance a minority, athlete, or female?

Edited December 3, 2013 by day man

[10percenttruth]

In response to CH, I don't think much of anything will be done with regards to this issue/scandal. At best they (senior officers) will say that they have stopped the practice, and I'm not even sure that will truly happen.

As for the Academy itself, what a waste. Do we really need to pump that much money into government schools that produce the exact same product that an ROTC/OTS program can produce? I know there is history and tradition involved (especially with Annapolis and West Point), but why are they are truly needed today? I've met great and shitty officers from all commissioning sources, as well as plenty in between. Just like the commissaries (especially stateside), they are no longer needed and require additional funds to maintain status quo.

Senior officers are telling us that we need to 'change/adapt' and get away from things just because it's tradition...getting rid of the Academies would be a great start.

The Academy, much like most of the other "elite" programs in the Air Force (UPT, ENJPPT, everyone has a WIC, etc...), has been dumbed down to the point that its products are not significantly higher quality than any other institution. The problem arises when an institution that is supposed to be a crucible for molding a better officer loses its focus & it's teeth. After that, it ends up just being hard for no damn reason (STS)

[Egghead]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding like an asshole or belittling your accomplishments, but are you by chance a minority, athlete, or female?

I am a white male and was applying for ROTC scholarships having been accepted to Purdue, Rose-Hulman IT, and Georgia Tech engineering programs. I was a DG at USAFA and went on to a grad school program afterwards. Had all the standard application squares checked (tests, ECs, grades, etc.).

Ya, I was left scratching my nugget but took USAFA as my first choice anyway. Who knows.

[Day Man]

interesting...thanks for the reply

[PushItUp]

Not real sure how this turned into an Academy bashing sesh, but let's get one thing straight. The stuff this dude Eric Thomas said in the article, is about 3/4 straight bullshit. I can honestly say there were some pretty shitty people in the class of 2013, which he was a part of. They were the most problematic class the Academy has seen in years, I'm not totally sure of the the stats but they had numerous people get kicked out for spice, sexual assault, and even drugs.

Eric was already a part of this crowd. He never "tailed" anyone, never infiltrated cliques within the academy, and never changed his personality to "fit in", he was already in that group. Same with Vianca Torres, and the other anonymous "informant." Btw, that other " anonymous informant" graduated just fine, that person was a good person and did their shit and actually cared. They were not a snitch. Do I think that its okay to have people within the cadet wing spying on other cadets just to rat them out, hell no. But I sure as hell don't want to go to school with a bunch of kids who are smoking weed, spice, and doing other things that don't reflect positively upon the Air Force or the Academy.

He's a wounded animal digging at whatever he can get to so his name is cleared and that he may have a chance to be commissioned. From experience and what I have heard from others that I trust, Eric can be the type of guy to exaggerate and pathologically lie. He told his "side" of the story and that's about it. He seems like a hero and a victim in the article, but I can assure you that's not the case.

Edit: When I say Eric was part of this "crowd", I'm not saying it was loaded with bad people. I'm just saying that was the party crowd and they are people that were associated with some of the bad stuff going on.

Edited December 3, 2013 by PushItUp

[LookieRookie]

How do you know?

[PushItUp]

How do you know?

I was squadmates with him and know a few people that were involved in the whole thing.

[El-Fist]

Do I think that its okay to have people within the cadet wing spying on other cadets just to rat them out, hell no. But I sure as hell don't want to go to school with a bunch of kids who are smoking weed, spice, and doing other things that don't reflect positively upon the Air Force or the Academy.

So, you don't "like" that the Air Force has cadets spying on other cadets just to rat them out, but you are OK with it as long as you don't have to go to school with a bunch of kids who are smoking weed, spice, and doing other stupid things? Got it. The AFA was a great choice for you because you wouldn't have made it in a non-institutionalized college setting. Sounds like you have all the traits to be a great senior leader someday.

These few idiots who are doing drugs, etc, don't reflect poorly on the big AF or AFA. This isn't the stuff that's making headlines. They will eventually get caught and be gone and forgotten by Big Blue anyway. What makes the AF and AFA look like shit, is when they invent or support programs that teach future officers to go around behind their peer's backs with the purpose of finding and reporting integrity violations and keeping secrets from their normal chain of command. The AFA should be teaching you to be a good "wingman" and beat your fellow cadet's ass when they are about to do something stupid, and prevent it all together. This will be a skill you will need not only in the academy, but when you make it to your squadron. People will try to do stupid shit there too, both on the flight line and out in town. You won't always have the luxury of running home to tell OSI. Handle it yourself when possible and save someone from a really bad decision.

Not a dig at you, just my opinion...

[Gravedigger]

Ahh, the old USAFA/ROTC debate.

Here's the bottom line, generally speaking, USAFA/ROTC/OTS/UPT/WIC will not make you any more or less of a douchebag than you would have been anywhere else. Some people are just douchebags. There are probably just as many shitty officers from both commissioning sources, and just as many good ones.

I know some great people that are Academy grads, and that route worked for them. I would have despised the Academy and wanted no part of the Air Force, so ROTC was a better option for me.

[HeloDude]

Ahh, the old USAFA/ROTC debate.

Here's the bottom line, generally speaking, USAFA/ROTC/OTS/UPT/WIC will not make you any more or less of a douchebag than you would have been anywhere else. Some people are just douchebags. There are probably just as many shitty officers from both commissioning sources, and just as many good ones.

I know some great people that are Academy grads, and that route worked for them. I would have despised the Academy and wanted no part of the Air Force, so ROTC was a better option for me.

So let's do it the most cost effective way...I'm all about value. If the Academy is more cost effective vs ROTC vs OTS, then I'm all for it.

[PushItUp]

So, you don't "like" that the Air Force has cadets spying on other cadets just to rat them out, but you are OK with it as long as you don't have to go to school with a bunch of kids who are smoking weed, spice, and doing other stupid things? Got it. The AFA was a great choice for you because you wouldn't have made it in a non-institutionalized college setting. Sounds like you have all the traits to be a great senior leader someday.

These few idiots who are doing drugs, etc, don't reflect poorly on the big AF or AFA. This isn't the stuff that's making headlines. They will eventually get caught and be gone and forgotten by Big Blue anyway. What makes the AF and AFA look like shit, is when they invent or support programs that teach future officers to go around behind their peer's backs with the purpose of finding and reporting integrity violations and keeping secrets from their normal chain of command. The AFA should be teaching you to be a good "wingman" and beat your fellow cadet's ass when they are about to do something stupid, and prevent it all together. This will be a skill you will need not only in the academy, but when you make it to your squadron. People will try to do stupid shit there too, both on the flight line and out in town. You won't always have the luxury of running home to tell OSI. Handle it yourself when possible and save someone from a really bad decision.

Not a dig at you, just my opinion...

I'm just gonna ignore the part where you judged who I am as a person and just agree with you on every level about being a wingman. Totally agree that we should help our bros out on the lowest level to keep issues from being bigger than they need to be. But this whole informant thing is way different than that and I think you believed too many things Eric said in the article. Nobody ran to OSI, it wasn't a spy movie, he didn't tail anyone, he wasn't directed to do shit by OSI, it was suggested. He didn't know his legal rights as an informant and that's how he got in too deep. The OSI has no clue about the cadet rules and BS, Eric did. That's how he got kicked out.

We don't have dudes running around here trying to snitch on each other for honor things and keeping their chain of command in the dark about most of it.If we did I would've been outta here the first month and on my way back to Florida to be a Nole. The whole article is the Eric saw it, and his perspective is jacked up. Keep in mind, he was a month away from graduation with ~450 demerits when he got the boot (200 is disenrollment). Eric did dumb shit and tried to blame it on being an OSI informant. Definitely not the case.