pawnman Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/08/overthrow-the-generals/ “To a shocking degree, the Army’s leadership ranks have become populated by mediocre officers, placed in positions where they are likely to fail. Success goes unrewarded, and everything but the most extreme failure goes unpunished, creating a perverse incentive system that drives leaders toward a risk-averse middle where they are more likely to find a stalemate than a victory.” Is Thom Ricks right, or is he cherry-picking his data to make senior leadership look bad in an effort to generate headlines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Driver Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Not sure about the Army, but it seems one might do a find/replace for Army and Air Force and be pretty damn close... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ricks' article from 2012 was discussed here wasn't it? My tapatalk-fu isn't good enough to search and paste the link. BL: I don't think this guy has anything new to say. Not that I disagree with him, just that it's not news. He'll retire and the machine will move on-what happened to the system after the Minot WG/CC who failed his PT test?Edit: that last post sure makes me sound like part of the problem. I despise the risk averse nature of the current AF. We talk ORM and it results in "ohh, that sounds dangerous. Don't go". It drives me up the wall. In other words, I think Davis and Thom ricks are correct in their assessment but in this case, calling a spade a spade isn't going to fix anything. Catch-22 much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I'm not an army guy, but I have these talks with our partners on exercises and deployments and they echo the same thing: institutionalized Peter principal on a mass scale. Just finished "bleeding talent" by Tim Kane, focuses on the army but it can all be said of the AF as well. And although I don't think it will change, there's always value in an eloquently stated truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterKing Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) The senior leadership in Naval Aviation is rife with senior leadership that either "survived" or stood on the backs of their peers... the witchhunt of the post 1991 Tailhook scandal. The culture shift over the last several years is reflective of this. Risk aversion over tactics/success/moral/etc. This article could very well be describing them, or pretty much any Flag/GO leadership in any branch (maybe not the Marines). This is not to say there aren't still some glimmers of hope and warriors in the Flag ranks... Not only have the GO/Flag ranks swelled to ludicrous levels, their staffs have gotten just retarded as well. We have more Admirals in the Navy than ships. Some how we managed to win WWII with only one Admiral for every ONE HUNDRED THIRTY ships. Edited August 12, 2013 by BolterKing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morenoj135 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 General Merrill McPeak - Gone but the impact is still with us today - need I say more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaco Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Politicians select risk averse military leaders during times of relative calm. I don't expect anything to change until the next no-shit shooting match. A lot of what is wrong in the military will change in a matter of months if not weeks at the beginning of said conflict; unfortunately the price for change in American lives will be high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbar Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 When the DoD (specifically the General Officer corps) looks into the mirror and doesn't like what it sees, it blames the mirror. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raimius Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Who do you replace them with? A good portion of the DoD is pretty risk averse, and those who suddenly wind up wearing stars probably won't be able to navigate the system as well as someone who has done so already. Even then, our whole nation is more risk averse, it seems. So, basically, we need competent but risk averse to select highly competent people who are not risk averse from a pool that is average and generally risk averse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Those who were responsible for the sacking have been sacked. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Who do you replace them with? I happen to know a number of badass army dudes with a decade long track record of ballsy and successful operations. The problem isn't a lack of competant and qualified people, the problem is a system which views a front line SF team leader with dozens of deployments as less capable of higher rank than a never deployed staff officer with a masters from Harvard. Very similar to our AF problems. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterKing Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I happen to know a number of badass army dudes with a decade long track record of ballsy and successful operations. The problem isn't a lack of competant and qualified people, the problem is a system which views a front line SF team leader with dozens of deployments as less capable of higher rank than a never deployed staff officer with a masters from Harvard. Very similar to our AF problems. Shack. Tactical badass is not a box to check on the career progression ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Shack. Tactical badass is not a box to check on the career progression ladder. I'd prefer my generals to be strategic badasses first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I'd prefer my generals to be strategic badasses first and foremost. As would I in a theoretical world. That said, the only people I've seen with actual strategic mastery are those who've obtained tactical prowess first. And you simply can't do that without deploying. A lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Does that mean F-15C and F-22 pilots are incapable of tactical prowess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewskis Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Does that mean F-15C and F-22 pilots are incapable of tactical prowess? Who knows? What MWS do you fly and how do you rate their tactical prowess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgruntledemployee Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Does that mean F-15C and F-22 pilots are incapable of tactical prowess? Nope, just you as you have made a grave tactical error in attemping to play the "MWS Race" card in order to stir the pot. Your strategy needs work. Go find some doctrine to read, the last refuge for the unimaginative. Out 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Nope, just you as you have made a grave tactical error in attemping to play the "MWS Race" card in order to stir the pot. Your strategy needs work. Go find some doctrine to read, the last refuge for the unimaginative. Out MWS race card? My strategy? What the hell are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy Spike Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 MWS race card? My strategy? What the hell are you talking about? What do you fly? Pretty simple question. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 What do you fly? Pretty simple question. Simple, but irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Simple, but irrelevant. So you make a comment about pilots in regards to what different kinds of aircraft they fly, but then when asked what aircraft you yourself fly, you refuse to answer? ...noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busdriver Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 This annoys me, I agree with Joe1234.... Deployment count does not equal tactical prowess. That said, if you're gonna be a strategic badass you need to at least grasp the tactical level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 So you make a comment about pilots in regards to what different kinds of aircraft they fly, but then when asked what aircraft you yourself fly, you refuse to answer? ...noted. Sigh. Is reading comprehension going out of style these days? I asked the guy a simple question, whether pilots of those two airframes need to deploy to gain tactical prowess. If the answer is no, it's an obvious inconsistency of something that he said. Show me where I "made a comment", please. This annoys me, I agree with Joe1234.... Deployment count does not equal tactical prowess. That said, if you're gonna be a strategic badass you need to at least grasp the tactical level. What I'm trying to get at is that here's a world of possibility between merely grasping tactics, and being a tactical badass or mastering it. I don't think that mastering the art of being down in the weeds tactically is a prerequisite for upper echelon combat leadership. What is a prerequisite, however, is dealing with a bunch of moving pieces, many of which you may only have a tenuous, at best, grasp on. Thats why they have a staff and liaisons. You don't hire the best engineer at GE to be the CEO. You hire the best businessman. If that guy happens to have an engineer background, then that's even better, as long as he's also still the best businessman. At the end of the day, nobody cares how well the 3/4 star can fly a jet with their seeing eye IP. They will, however, care if you needlessly lose money/lives and extend a war by months because your strategy sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 This annoys me, I agree with Joe1234.... Deployment count does not equal tactical prowess. That said, if you're gonna be a strategic badass you need to at least grasp the tactical level. Bus driver, you're correct that deployment count doesn't equal tactical prowess; I was speaking more with my current small corner of the AF in mind and there are some unique things going on here. But I don't know how anyone can truly be superior at tactics without having at least put them into practice a few times. And no, being superior at tactics isn't a prerequisite for strategic excellence, but as you mentioned its at least a fundamental that must be fully understood. Overall I think this article is correct; both the army & USAF are prohibiting people with demonstrated tactical success who are capable of higher level thinking from competition to higher ranks because they lack a certain academic pedigree.... One that is impossible to obtain when stuck in the daily grind. We're essentially disqualifying a large pool of highly qualified individuals, and the solution lies in changing our paradigm of qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterKing Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Sigh. Is reading comprehension going out of style these days? I asked the guy a simple question, whether pilots of those two airframes need to deploy to gain tactical prowess. If the answer is no, it's an obvious inconsistency of something that he said. Show me where I "made a comment", please. What I'm trying to get at is that here's a world of possibility between merely grasping tactics, and being a tactical badass or mastering it. I don't think that mastering the art of being down in the weeds tactically is a prerequisite for upper echelon combat leadership. What is a prerequisite, however, is dealing with a bunch of moving pieces, many of which you may only have a tenuous, at best, grasp on. Thats why they have a staff and liaisons. You don't hire the best engineer at GE to be the CEO. You hire the best businessman. If that guy happens to have an engineer background, then that's even better, as long as he's also still the best businessman. At the end of the day, nobody cares how well the 3/4 star can fly a jet with their seeing eye IP. They will, however, care if you needlessly lose money/lives and extend a war by months because your strategy sucked. Spoken like someone whose never been down range, under the leadership of someone whose never been down range. As for the F-15C/F-22 question, what is their back ground? If they did one tour, and the next 20 years of their career on a staff, going to grad school, planning retirement and Christmas parties, then no. If we're talking a guy that spent his entire career in the cockpit, is a patch wearer, and has gone from flying tour to flying tour, whose number was just never called to go down range then ya I'd say they still get the big picture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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