Why Can’t the U.S. Military Grow Better Leaders?

[HuggyU2]

A lot of guys stay in these days because there aren't many places to go outside the military.

Seriously, Seriously?

Maybe they stay in because that is their "perception". But the problem is "they don't know what they don't know."

I find it extremely hard to believe that your options outside the military are quite as dim as some people believe.

It took him 3100 posts,... but here's something we agree upon.

[10percenttruth]

Are there any guys on this board in a leadership position that care to chime in?

Be careful what you wish for, Sweet I'm SOF is probably lurking around right now, ready to espouse the cronyism & good-on-paper promotion model that got him where he is today.

[disgruntledemployee]

I have never been able to understand this. So, supposedly the military aviation profession is filled with Type A, hard-charging, "my dick is bigger than yours" competitive guys, but a lot of them have this attitude too?

Not surprising that you don't get it. And you're not supposed to be showing everyone your dick these days, regardless of DADT. Jeez.

At least one of those assumptions cannot be true, I say both. A) I think there are all types no matter what community you come from, but more importantly, B) dudes are selling themselves way too short.

If you're smart and driven enough to made in the service in the first place, promoted to O-3+, earned your wings, have flown in combat where lives are on the line, have done some PME/MA work beyond the standard college degree, and have put up with the long hours additional duties grind, I find it extremely hard to believe that your options outside the military are quite as dim as some people believe.

Where else can you make Maj pay, be in charge of your plane and crew (for those that have one), fly something more challenging that getting ATIS and flying the ILS to a full stop, and drink beer with the crew afterwards while sharing tall tales?

It seems like it's just too damn much work to try and change the system,. but has anyone here ever tried? Are there any guys on this board in a leadership position that care to chime in?

I have witnessed and heard of dudes in leadship positions try to buck "THE SYSTEM" and results varied from being put out to pasture in various BS jobs to retirement. Those that played along usually maintained climb-out to higher altitudes. I saw it right at the SQ CC level one day. One guy was the genuine article leader, working for the people and the other was the boss pleaser. Guess who moved up in the AF?

This is what we lowerlings see everyday. So many take the guerilla warfare style. Unless you have some nice big daddy firepower to cover your ass, sticking your neck out has a track record of negative results. People keep trying though. Some are victorious, but I assume that as they climb, they will encounter the immovable object that shwacks them back down and they either get out or join the collective. Ah, AF leadership as the Borg. How enlightening.

There is one recipe that has shown itself to work more often than not when it comes to getting promotion.

1. Know the game: Masters ASAP, PME when eligible ASAP, volunteer for each and every big additional duty from CFC to AF Ball. These are the elements of DPs and higher points on the promotion boards.

2. Be a boss pleaser and yes man. Always do what ever the boss wants. Never say no or can't. You'll be viewed as "True Blue."

3. Shit on everyone else as to why success didn't happen. Never blame your boss or higher.

4. When in power, be a dick to everyone under your charge so that you look good, and take credit for everything they do because your in charge of them.

5. Always volunteer for the exec jobs because that is where you get the number 1 strats as the boss can't have a #2 guy running the office.

6. Don't fly as much as everyone else because that takes time away from trying to climb the ladder in office jobs and everyone knows that the AF doesn't really care about flying performance.

7. Profit

There are some variations on the formula, but you get the point.

Out

Edited February 2, 2013 by disgruntledemployee

[Seriously]

Seriously, Seriously?

Maybe they stay in because that is their "perception". But the problem is "they don't know what they don't know."

It took him 3100 posts,... but here's something we agree upon.

I'll buy that.

[GoAround]

#8. Feel sorry for yourself and contribute nothing to yourself or your squadron mates...basically be a limp dick officer and sh!t on everyone/thing.

[nsplayr]

Not surprising that you don't get it.

Yea, I really don't get the negative, uber-jaded, whoa is me, can't make a difference so I'll just stop trying attitude. Why would I want to get that?

Disgruntledemployee is a fitting screen name. You may be entitled to a free shoulder-chip removal device if you go see a flight doc.

Where else can you make Maj pay, be in charge of your plane and crew (for those that have one), fly something more challenging that getting ATIS and flying the ILS to a full stop, and drink beer with the crew afterwards while sharing tall tales?

A) I know several jobs on the outside that offer basically the same thing as what some of us are doing now with +50% pay, but that's besides the point

B) If all you think you can do is fly planes then we've discovered the root of your shortsightedness.

If you want to fly planes then great and that gets you up in the morning like nothing else, you can fly planes and make good money, I know several guys who are doing just that. But if you're willing to open your eyes, even just a crack, you might realize that dudes can retire or get out, do something completely different yet apply the KSAs they got on active duty, and do very well for themselves and whatever field they choose to go into.

BL: Saying mil officers, especially aviators, don't have many options on the outside is complete and utter BS.

Edited February 2, 2013 by nsplayr

[disgruntledemployee]

Yea, I really don't get the negative, uber-jaded, whoa is me, can't make a difference so I'll just stop trying attitude. Why would I want to get that?

Disgruntledemployee is a fitting screen name. You may be entitled to a free shoulder-chip removal device if you go see a flight doc.

A) I know several jobs on the outside that offer basically the same thing as what some of us are doing now with +50% pay, but that's besides the point

B) If all you think you can do is fly planes then we've discovered the root of your shortsightedness.

If you want to fly planes then great and that gets you up in the morning like nothing else, you can fly planes and make good money, I know several guys who are doing just that. But if you're willing to open your eyes, even just a crack, you might realize that dudes can retire or get out, do something completely different yet apply the KSAs they got on active duty, and do very well for themselves and whatever field they choose to go into.

BL: Saying mil officers, especially aviators, don't have many options on the outside is complete and utter BS.

You said you didn't understand why people don't fight and I gave you a plausible rationale as to why. Your training wheels are barely off, which is why I said that its no surprise you don't get it, not that you think like that. Go write a few PRFs and you may start getting some ideas as to why people think like that. Watch some really good dudes get fucked over, then you will see the light.

In rebuttal to your points A-C above:

A. I don't care what is out there. You asked why people stay in and not fight the bullshit.

B. That one went right over your head. Its not about just flying planes. Its about the military way of life vs the civilian way of life. Flying for someone else is not really the same as flying in the military. I'm fairly certain that most aviators are aware that there are companies in the world that fly airplanes. Some people may enjoy some of the things they do while flying for Uncle Sam and are willing to endure the bullshit that comes with it. Now you get the point?

C. My last set of numbered points was some sad but true satire on many who get to be our senior leadership. Again, your greeness shows.

Now if you want to flame on over spellings of screen names and any implied meanings, game on little one. I like my should chips right where they are and one day, you may too.

Out

[Azimuth]

BL: Saying mil officers, especially aviators, don't have many options on the outside is complete and utter BS.

What common post-military job opportunities do Navs/EWO/WSO/CSO's and ABM's have?

[nsplayr]

Dude, listen to yourself. You're jaded, you've seen good dudes get fucked over and bad dudes get promoted, I got it. But if I'm so green and young and getting some "words of wisdom" from wise old dsigruntledemployee, then why am I the one basically encouraging dudes not to sell themselves short and you're the one telling them to just stay in, stop giving a shit, and collect their paycheck? Or are you really saying that?

I'm necessarily totally disagreeing with the factual parts of your assessment of the current system and if you've read my other posts in this thread you'll see I'm pretty much in favor of some of the more sweeping reforms that Tim Kane called for in his articles.

Here's what lead us to this point in the first place, and it wasn't something you yourself said:

A lot of guys stay in these days because there aren't many places to go outside the military. So we find ways to cope with the grind and put up with just enough bullshit to get by.

Do you agree with this attitude? This is what I most disagree with. Maybe if you're 5-10 years further down the road you can speak to this and whether or not dudes should just put up with just enough BS to get by.

What common post-military job opportunities do Navs/EWO/WSO/CSO's and ABM's have?

Dude, I'm not monster.com, you can easily find this information out. If someone is looking to be a navigator in the civilian flying world obviously that's not really gonna work out, but...

Imagine, outside the narrow confines of exactly what you or I do in our airplanes, what a military officer with a security clearance, combat experience overseas, a Master's Degree of some kind, self-discipline and a good work ethic can bring to a civilian company. Is it seriously so hard to see why a HR person would want to hire someone like that?

If you don't believe me, fine, I'm still on active duty and haven't been in the civilian job market for 5+ years. Ask the old heads around here if they think a lot of mil guys sell themselves short. Ask Rainman how he's doing in the civilian sector. Ask M2 if that AMU degree was truly worthless. Ask CH if some of his peers who didn't stay in as long are making it outside of Big Blue.

Edited February 3, 2013 by nsplayr

[Fuzz]

What common post-military job opportunities do Navs/EWO/WSO/CSO's and ABM's have?

[Azimuth]

Dude, listen to yourself. You're jaded, you've seen good dudes get ######ed over and bad dudes get promoted, I got it. But if I'm so green and young and getting some "words of wisdom" from wise old dsigruntledemployee, then why am I the one basically encouraging dudes not to sell themselves short and you're the one telling them to just stay in, stop giving a shit, and collect their paycheck? Or are you really saying that?

I'm necessarily totally disagreeing with the factual parts of your assessment of the current system and if you've read my other posts in this thread you'll see I'm pretty much in favor of some of the more sweeping reforms that Tim Kane called for in his articles.

Here's what lead us to this point in the first place, and it wasn't something you yourself said:

Do you agree with this attitude? This is what I most disagree with. Maybe if you're 5-10 years further down the road you can speak to this and whether or not dudes should just put up with just enough BS to get by.

Dude, I'm not monster.com, you can easily find this information out. If someone is looking to be a navigator in the civilian flying world obviously that's not really gonna work out, but...

Imagine, outside the narrow confines of exactly what you or I do in our airplanes, what a military officer with a security clearance, combat experience overseas, a Master's Degree of some kind, self-discipline and a good work ethic can bring to a civilian company. Is it seriously so hard to see why a HR person would want to hire someone like that?

If you don't believe me, fine, I'm still on active duty and haven't been in the civilian job market for 5+ years. Ask the old heads around here if they think a lot of mil guys sell themselves short. Ask Rainman how he's doing in the civilian sector. Ask M2 if that AMU degree was truly worthless. Ask CH if some of his peers who didn't stay in as long are making it outside of Big Blue.

The guys you listed are pilots, why would I ask them? With the first VSP I saw good pilots get out, I saw Navs stay in and assume leadership position because all of a sudden the USAF had a pilot shortage and what were they going to do anyways in the civilian sector? Nothing, hence why most 12Whatevers stay in.

[nsplayr]

Ask them because they'll tell you don't sell yourself short, which is exactly the big picture point I'm trying to make.

Not sure why you wanna have a real post-AF career path discussion for a nav since, like you said, you're not a nav. WRT what you said, anyone have real data on that claim that more navs stay in? I don't, but my anecdote is that I've seen just as many dudes punch from both 11S and 12S, timing is a little different due to different initial commitments. YMMV.

Anyone who thinks the only thing they can do for money is fly is an idiot. That applies especially to navs who think they'd better stay in because they have no prospects on the outside.

Edited February 3, 2013 by nsplayr

[Fuzz]

The guys you listed are pilots, why would I ask them? With the first VSP I saw good pilots get out, I saw Navs stay in and assume leadership position because all of a sudden the USAF had a pilot shortage and what were they going to do anyways in the civilian sector? Nothing, hence why most 12Whatevers stay in.

I'm assuming you are talking about KC-135 navs? That's a scary thought given the few I have met.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Scaredfuzz21

[Azimuth]

I'm assuming you are talking about KC-135 navs? That's a scary thought given the few I have met.

And -130 Navs.

[M2]

What common post-military job opportunities do Navs/EWO/WSO/CSO's and ABM's have?

The question is, what post-military job opportunities do Navs/EWO/WSO/CSO's and ABM's not have?!

I have to agree with nsplayr here, there are plenty of employment opportunities post-military. The vast majority of retired and prior-service officers I know are employed in lucrative positions. While some don't end up in aviation; most are skilled, experienced and motivated enough to find some kind of good work (and pay) once they leave the military.

But of course, some prepare themselves for that eventuality better than others...

[disgruntledemployee]

Alright Mr Playr, for the record, one last time loud and clear. I'll even number the points for you.

1. I am not telling anyone what to do or not do with their career, job, or life after the military. I merely tell a story. If you don't like it, don't read it.

2. The original topic of this post, as stated by the title, is growing better leaders. This implies that we have a bunch that suck.

3. From #3 above, I shared some thoughts on why we have a bit much of those "not so good" leaders. This comes from seeing, living, and hearing of various leaders. For example, search for the "leader" John McDonald that was fired at Pope a few years ago. Yep, one of the leaders I know and reference.

4. Then, on the issue of why people may stay in and deal with the BS, perhaps they like some of the cool shit they do. Hence, why I alluded to the mindless airline life a pilot might take while protraying a dude in a white shirt, getting the ATIS, and monitoring George fly the ILS. Whoopee, real exicting.

5. You take some of my comments personally, decide that I'm mad and angry, and thus you take personal shots. That's fine, this is the Al Gore al jezerra interweb where anonymity is like courage. Maybe you didn't like my pointed words against your view on women in combat.

One thing you might have noticed is that I have not said to shut up Nav. That is because I actually like real Navs. I've seen them get out, I've seem them take command (some sucked and were examples in my previous post, some were great and made a difference), and I've seen them stay in and do just enough to keep chugging along, whatever their motivations.

So now that we are at a common understanding, let me summarize. The reason we have a bunch of crappy leaders is a product of the system in place.

Out

[Azimuth]

3. From #3 above, I shared some thoughts on why we have a bit much of those "not so good" leaders. This comes from seeing, living, and hearing of various leaders. For example, search for the "leader" John McDonald that was fired at Pope a few years ago. Yep, one of the leaders I know and reference.

I worked for him when he was the OG at Salem in '05. He was everything that's wrong with USAF and not a tear was shed when his career was terminated.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Azimuth

[Winchester]

Ask them because they'll tell you don't sell yourself short, which is exactly the big picture point I'm trying to make.

Not sure why you wanna have a real post-AF career path discussion for a nav since, like you said, you're not a nav. WRT what you said, anyone have real data on that claim that more navs stay in? I don't, but my anecdote is that I've seen just as many dudes punch from both 11S and 12S, timing is a little different due to different initial commitments. YMMV.

Anyone who thinks the only thing they can do for money is fly is an idiot. That applies especially to navs who think they'd better stay in because they have no prospects on the outside.

. Dude I totally agree with you. It makes me tired trying to explain to folks to not sell themselves short when it comes to post military life. The opportunities are endless. Even for shoe clerks. Military experience with a clearance is cash money, you just have to look.

Edit: I know because I've looked and been recruited, like I'm sure many have on this forum.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Winchester

[tac airlifter]

Agree with Nsplayr & Winchester. I've looked and been recruited for jobs that have nothing to do with my piloting experience. Whether or not ill choose to take them when my commitment is up remains to be seen, but opportunities do exist.

[Karl Hungus]

4. Then, on the issue of why people may stay in and deal with the BS, perhaps they like some of the cool shit they do. Hence, why I alluded to the mindless airline life a pilot might take while protraying a dude in a white shirt, getting the ATIS, and monitoring George fly the ILS. Whoopee, real exicting.

That's the thing... a lot of what we do these days is endless OPRs and EPRs, award packages, PRFs, Christmas Parties, "Warrior" Runs, Change of Command planning, PME TDYs, etc. Whoopee, real exciting.

There's a way to minimize the bullshit, and still have an "exciting" mission. It's called the guard and reserve.

[BONE WSO]

Here is an example of what you can make getting out of the military.

http://www.mccombs.u...Statistics.aspx

I'm getting my MBA at the University of Texas and the average salary plus bonus the first year out is around $140,000 per year, and that is in Texas. I'm getting out later this year and plan to do on-campus recruiting to get a job. I made a trip to all the top business schools in the country last year and there are tons of military guys at all the top MBA programs, and the schools really want us there.

Here is a screenshot of the salaries of MBA students at the University of Chicago.

http://faculty.chica...namics_1209.pdf

There are plenty of jobs out there making a ton of money but you may have to upgrade your skills/resume to be in a position to go after them.

Edited February 3, 2013 by BONE WSO

[Clark Griswold]

Not a reason why we can't grow better officers but an example of the genius currently at work in the USAF...

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2013/02/air-force-maxwell-plan-publish-pics-uniform-violators-nixed-021013w/

[Karl Hungus]

“Would you have confidence in the airworthiness of a commercial airliner if you saw peeling paint or torn seats or unfastened rivets? … In the same respect, the American public, inspector general or any other airman might wonder how a base is addressing large issues when they observe an apparent disregard for ‘small’ things,” Bergdolt wrote.

Sigh. Counting down the days.

[Inthebuff]

In general I agree, but it's not like that in every wing in the AF. I've seen what a good SQ/CC can do when that isn't the command climate.

EDIT: Put it this way, if good dudes won't play the game to get promoted then whoever is willing to play gets promoted.

Barksdale is a perfect example of this in full effect. Lots of great people jumping ship and turds getting promoted. It's now the few and far between that are good leaders, most are just 'YES' men. Better yet when the other 'self starters' decide to promote the ones who service them best, now you've got generations of 'CYA' at the leadership levels. Glad I pulled chocks when I did, It's sad to go back and visit now, I can only imagine how it's going to become once this economic downturn spits out all the good ones for not spending more time working on their own CGO of the Q packages.

Side note on the budget, KBAD spent god knows what last year on digging up sidewalks so they could move them 4 feet and stylize them with stained concrete in what I can only guess was an attempt to win one million dollars to blow in some other means (should note they only did this down the main drag by the AFGSC HQ building)

Edited February 12, 2013 by Inthebuff

[backseatdriver]

McKinsey Quarterly article on the military not being able to retain talented officers......from 1999.

http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/The_US_military_is_losing_the_war_for_talent_356