HerkFE Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 It was even worse when I was at the Deid and the OG there was a Viper guy whose OG included hercs, -135s, Rivet Joints, and E-3s. Don't know how common that is and I'm sure in many cases it works out, but in that case it was a damn travesty. He made it a habit to armchair quarterback airlift missions - going so far as to ask out loud why C-130s weren't flying the ILS in to Baghdad (this was in '04), since our tactical approaches were such a nussiance to the airspace there. Not sure how many times this happened but I was there in '04 and it happened to us. My AC (LTC, 7,000 hr Herk dude) went ape shit when we asked for the tactical arrival and was told he was only getting the ILS. We had planned an ERO at Baghdad but we shut down so that he could go inside to "speak" to the ATC Chief on the phone. I was told that the DO was on a Herk the very next morning to have a face to face with ATC after the incident. We never had to do another ILS after that. Just wondering if you may be speaking of our incident ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amcflyboy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Not sure how many times this happened but I was there in '04 and it happened to us. My AC (LTC, 7,000 hr Herk dude) went ape shit when we asked for the tactical arrival and was told he was only getting the ILS. We had planned an ERO at Baghdad but we shut down so that he could go inside to "speak" to the ATC Chief on the phone. I was told that the DO was on a Herk the very next morning to have a face to face with ATC after the incident. We never had to do another ILS after that. Just wondering if you may be speaking of our incident ??? Uhh...What? Why is it that contract ATC dudes are the biggest fucking retards of all time? We have the same problem down in Antarctica. Basically the guys who graduate last in their class! Edited March 22, 2012 by amcflyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HercDude Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Why is it that contract ATC dudes are the biggest fucking retards of all time? We have the same problem down in Antarctica. Basically the guys who graduate last in their class! Having sat in a few towers at various bases, I can say without a doubt that the best controllers I have ever seen were the guys at bagram - all civilians, all ex-military (I think). Controlling 3 C-130s in the pattern is one thing; controlling a C-130, a couple Antanovs, a handfull of Mi-8s, a 2 ship of strike eagles, and a Viper calling min fuel, and some retarded NORDO ISAF IL-76 on a 3 mile final to a closed runway - all with a cool, calm, professional voice - is quite another. Don't know what the hell goes on in Antarctica, but from what I've seen I couldn't disagreee more. Not sure how many times this happened but I was there in '04 and it happened to us. My AC (LTC, 7,000 hr Herk dude) went ape shit when we asked for the tactical arrival and was told he was only getting the ILS. We had planned an ERO at Baghdad but we shut down so that he could go inside to "speak" to the ATC Chief on the phone. I was told that the DO was on a Herk the very next morning to have a face to face with ATC after the incident. We never had to do another ILS after that. Just wondering if you may be speaking of our incident ??? I dunno. I don't remember him actually getting anyone to make us fly instrument approaches, but what was told to us was that when the DO & Sq/CC brought up to him that we were getting delayed 30 minutes or more waiting for airspace to open up, which put some crews close to Bingo, and other way behind frag, his questions was "Well why don't you just fly the ILS and be done with it." In an OG Call he spoke directly to the Herc guys in the crowd and said we over-estimating the treat, and that's why we weren't on time (which didn't hold a lot of water with most of us because we were only getting about 60% of the sorties off the ground on time due to Mx - and guys were getting shot at going in to Balad and Baghdad several time a week). Stuff went back and forth for a few months before he fired the C-130 Sq/CC out there. Very ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Why is it that contract ATC dudes are the biggest fucking retards of all time? We have the same problem down in Antarctica. Basically the guys who graduate last in their class! Is airspace THAT crowded that they need to have ATC? How many flights are there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 LOL. Great question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Is airspace THAT crowded that they need to have ATC? How many flights are there? You are always at BASH severe at or below 2 AGL for all the penguins. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flare Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Having sat in a few towers at various bases, I can say without a doubt that the best controllers I have ever seen were the guys at bagram - all civilians, all ex-military (I think). Controlling 3 C-130s in the pattern is one thing; controlling a C-130, a couple Antanovs, a handfull of Mi-8s, a 2 ship of strike eagles, and a Viper calling min fuel, and some retarded NORDO ISAF IL-76 on a 3 mile final to a closed runway - all with a cool, calm, professional voice - is quite another. Don't know what the hell goes on in Antarctica, but from what I've seen I couldn't disagreee more. Huge freaking "2" on that one. Best controllers I've ever worked with. Plus there were a couple of 'em that weren't bad on the eyes, and that was not counting the deployment goggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abmwaldo Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 "3" on the tower controllers at Bagram. I ate a few meals with them and if I remember one of the guys had been in country for several consecutive YEARS. Sure he'd seen just about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkFE Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I dunno. I don't remember him actually getting anyone to make us fly instrument approaches, but what was told to us was that when the DO & Sq/CC brought up to him that we were getting delayed 30 minutes or more waiting for airspace to open up, which put some crews close to Bingo, and other way behind frag, his questions was "Well why don't you just fly the ILS and be done with it." In an OG Call he spoke directly to the Herc guys in the crowd and said we over-estimating the treat, and that's why we weren't on time (which didn't hold a lot of water with most of us because we were only getting about 60% of the sorties off the ground on time due to Mx - and guys were getting shot at going in to Balad and Baghdad several time a week). Stuff went back and forth for a few months before he fired the C-130 Sq/CC out there. Very ugly. I may have my years confused. Thinking back now, it was summer of 2005 that this happened. My AC explained what happened to the DO and let him know that we wouldn't be doing that again. He let him know that we would RTB the next time if our only option was an ILS. The attitude of ATC there had been going downhill for a while and that was brought up as well. After the DO had the meeting the next day, ATC had a very different attitude for the rest of the time we were there. They actually seemed happy to be there and to be of service to us. These were the enroute/approach dudes and they were military if I remember correctly. I think only the towers were contract/civilian at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amcflyboy Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Huge freaking "2" on that one. Best controllers I've ever worked with. Plus there were a couple of 'em that weren't bad on the eyes, and that was not counting the deployment goggles. Just from my point of view when I was at Bagram. I saw military controllers, and I do agree that they were pretty good...especially with dealing with the retard ISAF IL-76 planes. You are always at BASH severe at or below 2 AGL for all the penguins. Those damn penguins...yes they do get in the way of the skiway when they decide to wander on to it and cause us to go into holding and wait for them to leave on their own accord. Unfortunately, the Antarctic treaty does not allow airfield ops to "shoo" them away! LOL. Great question. Is airspace THAT crowded that they need to have ATC? How many flights are there? Rainman and BQ...here you go: McMurdo station (Williams Field, Pegasus Field, and Ice Runway) are all considered Class D Airspace with a special restriction that stretches out to 100 DME, in accordance with 13AF and PACAF, and mind you, this is in a non-Radar environment. Everything else is class G Airspace with position reporting requirements all the way to South Pole, WAIS Divide, etc. We do position reporting to Mac Center on HF's. Can't even begin to tell you how spooled up these guys get when there's 3 planes all flying the "A-track" all the way to the Pole, and there's 44 minute spacing minute spacing between each plane...one minute less than the required 45 minute spacing. We here the classic, "please restate your estimate for P4, P5, etc., etc." We've been doing this for 13 years, with the same controllers, and they still freak out. UFB! Then throw in 4 planes recovering to MCM with the proper 1 hour spacing, 1 plane from WAIS, and 1 from AGAP with 45 minute spacing from everybody else, followed by a C-17 that's 1 hour out coming in from Christchurch, and then sprinkle in two or three Twin Hueys transitioning the airspace, and well out of range of the approach corridors. You can hear the panic in their voices, like it's the end of the world! GOD FORBID, we pull these guys away from their video games, or High Times Magazines!! Does this help?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Wow...and I thought Guam Ctr was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingOsh Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I love Guam. You ever dive at gun beach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'm just wondering... dexedrine did wonders for me pulling a 21 hour sortie from OTBH to KDYS in a B-1... why is AMC/AFSOC so anti go-pill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzdude Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'm just wondering... dexedrine did wonders for me pulling a 21 hour sortie from OTBH to KDYS in a B-1... why is AMC/AFSOC so anti go-pill?. Rumor I heard (AMC side) was that there was no way to verify the go pill would be used at the appropriate time/day/sortie (since more than likely the go pill would be prescribed out of home station even though the day requiring it is several days in the future); basically, how to avoid misuse/abuse of the go pill. Or we're just expected to hit the bunk and let the other pilots fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Rumor I heard (AMC side) was that there was no way to verify the go pill would be used at the appropriate time/day/sortie (since more than likely the go pill would be prescribed out of home station even though the day requiring it is several days in the future); basically, how to avoid misuse/abuse of the go pill. That's a pitiful rationale. You want to avoid misuse and abuse? How about simply trusting the flyers to use the pills as prescribed. You're only giving them 1-2 pills tops! It's not like it would be easy/economical/intelligent to sell 1-2 pills on the black market. You staff rats who make these convoluted decisions need to pull your collective heads out of your fourth point of contact. Let me get this straight, you trust aircrew with a $100M+ aircraft with possibly hundreds of lives on board with the chance of an ever present IFE, but taking a single pill is beyond their level of trust?!? UFB?!?!?! At my last assignment, we flew RF-A from Minot AFB. Lots of 14+ hour flights and one of them led to a "near Class-A with fatalities". When asked why the flight crews didn't have go pills, we told them that the med group claimed they didn't have time to get the pills before the flight. However, it really boiled down to people who just didn't get the paperwork signed in a timely manner (effectively, not just shoeclerks, but incompetent shoeclerks). Both the OG and WG/CCs nearly tore apart the process and, from that time to the present, everyone was issued go/no-go pills for applicable missions whether you wanted them or not. You had to document when you used/didn't use them so they could better assess aircrew needs in the future and make the process easier. Sounds like AMC has decided that aircrew can't make flight-related decisions. It's leadership-by-REMF Just from my point of view when I was at Bagram. I saw military controllers, and I do agree that they were pretty good...especially with dealing with the retard ISAF IL-76 planes. Those damn penguins...yes they do get in the way of the skiway when they decide to wander on to it and cause us to go into holding and wait for them to leave on their own accord. Unfortunately, the Antarctic treaty does not allow airfield ops to "shoo" them away! Rainman and BQ...here you go: McMurdo station (Williams Field, Pegasus Field, and Ice Runway) are all considered Class D Airspace with a special restriction that stretches out to 100 DME, in accordance with 13AF and PACAF, and mind you, this is in a non-Radar environment. Everything else is class G Airspace with position reporting requirements all the way to South Pole, WAIS Divide, etc. We do position reporting to Mac Center on HF's. Can't even begin to tell you how spooled up these guys get when there's 3 planes all flying the "A-track" all the way to the Pole, and there's 44 minute spacing minute spacing between each plane...one minute less than the required 45 minute spacing. We here the classic, "please restate your estimate for P4, P5, etc., etc." We've been doing this for 13 years, with the same controllers, and they still freak out. UFB! Then throw in 4 planes recovering to MCM with the proper 1 hour spacing, 1 plane from WAIS, and 1 from AGAP with 45 minute spacing from everybody else, followed by a C-17 that's 1 hour out coming in from Christchurch, and then sprinkle in two or three Twin Hueys transitioning the airspace, and well out of range of the approach corridors. You can hear the panic in their voices, like it's the end of the world! GOD FORBID, we pull these guys away from their video games, or High Times Magazines!! Does this help?? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Four aircraft within 100 NM!?!? Cancel all takeoffs!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I love Guam. You ever dive at gun beach? Guam's a good time, but unfortunately never got around to diving. I'll have to make it a point next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I love Guam. You ever dive at gun beach? Several times, great dives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherManC130 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'm just wondering... dexedrine did wonders for me pulling a 21 hour sortie from OTBH to KDYS in a B-1... why is AMC/AFSOC so anti go-pill? I thought they were called rip-its? Towards the end of my deployment I would need two just to get out of bed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco_Nav963 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I thought they were called rip-its? Towards the end of my deployment I would need two just to get out of bed And they can now be found at most CONUS commissaries, just not for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Towards the end of my deployment I would need two just to get out of bed Hence the the joke "Fighting The War On Drugs" for the night guys during ODS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Go pills are fucking awesome. Coming down off an operationally necessary Dex high, though...is not fucking awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogAir Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'm just wondering... dexedrine did wonders for me pulling a 21 hour sortie from OTBH to KDYS in a B-1... why is AMC/AFSOC so anti go-pill? You want to take pills? The last thing i want to take is a go-pill or an Ambien. Mark my words, 10 years from now they'll announce the sh!t gives you brain cancer, etc. Pill dosing is an easy out for the USAF. Put more pilots on long haul flights, give them more crewrest, those are the answers--not pills. If your schedule requires me to take drugs to fly it, then you can count on me to call safety of flight or land short. Don't have enough pilots to make it happen? Not my problem, hire/retain more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 That all makes sense if you fly a multiplace aircraft. We single-seaters don't always have much of a choice. Alert sorties flown after broken rest periods, pond crossings flown into/out of night...the list goes on. A pill isn't a substitute for good ol' sleep, but it's a gap-filler when the only alternative is mission failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 When you are really feeling drowsy.... rip it sandwich... Rip it... dex... followed by another Rip It. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Followed immediately by heart explosion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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