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Navy crash in Alabama

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RIP. I believe Air Force One was fixing to land in Pensacola about the time this crash happened?

"The crash happened Friday at 5 p.m."

"The two killed in Friday night's crash are the Navy's first aviation-related fatalities in more than a year. The Naval Safety Center announced Tuesday that the Navy and Marine Corps recorded no aviation-related deaths in fiscal 2020, which ended Sept. 30."

 

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AF One landed ~1850; completely irrelevant to this topic.  Why do top brass, regardless of service, feel the need to pound their chests w/ bs like no fatalities for X timeframe?  Something to brag about? It’s always only a matter of time before the next mishap, nature of our business.  What happened right after former CSAF’s safety video this summer...another damn mishap. 

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Heartbreaking...Pensacola area can't catch a break between active shooter, naval commandant at NAS Pensacola passed in a civilian mishap in June, and this.

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no ejection attempt? 

That’s probably the most interesting part to me, I see this two ways. 1 - no attempt or 2 - non-successful attempt. Either way, it’s a sad situation for their families and the Whiting Field team.

The IP’s truck at VT-2, as it currently sits.

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8 hours ago, Bode said:

 I see this two ways. 1 - no attempt or 2 - non-successful attempt. 

I never attended Safety School, but what would Option 3 be that isn’t covered by 1 and 2???

Edited by HuggyU2
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I never attended Safety School, but what would Option 3 be that isn’t covered by 1 and 2???

Trying to put it down without hitting anything specifically. Really what keeps going through my mind is incapacitation due to OBOGS issues (a lengthy discussion could be had about the CO2 levels below 8k) or ejection seat malfunctions (a discussion the entire systems and the extensions in place to keep the Texan flying). Being a T-6 guy for the last 7 years, it keeps rolling through my mind. I know there is more and I’m not trying to speculate much. I was also at DLF when we lost both 38s and watching people Monday morning quarterback pissed me off when it’s bros you know.

In the end, because Texans are still flying, I’m assuming they haven’t found anything indicating a fleet health issue. And as always, ~90% of mishaps are human error so probably is on that end. Any way it ends, if f-ing sucks for the Navy, Coast Guard, and the entire flying community. A toast to them.


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59 minutes ago, Bode said:


Trying to put it down without hitting anything specifically. 

That would qualify as Option 1:  no attempt. 

I hear what you're saying... but won't speculate.  

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I won't speculate but would really like to see the report. 

I flew in same airspace a few hours before this and the weather was fine, although it was forecast to get worse around the time of the crash with showers and such during the POTUS rally two hours later at KPNS.  Standard wild witness statements ranging from "Aircraft was in a tailspin", "I could hear the engine howling as they came down", to "I could tell the pilot was trying to avoid the houses." 

One report said they were going to land at Foley, the crash site is 2.6 miles due west of the center of the Foley airport but they were also within the confines of the MOA above.  There is an OLF in the area but it was over 7 miles west.

Part of the business but always sad to lose two more souls of the .3% that raise their hand to serve this country.  RIP.

 

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8 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

That would qualify as Option 1:  no attempt. 

I hear what you're saying... but won't speculate. 

Or Option 2? Could've attempted, unsuccessful (in this case I mean partial/no initiation of sequence) and then ditch is now the previously undesirable Option 3.

Not speculating, just talking general considerations.

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18 hours ago, raimius said:

Too early to speculate.

The accident investigation is ongoing... ergo, it is always too early. 

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The accident investigation is ongoing... ergo, it is always too early. 


Here we are again, Huggy...So then, once the investigation is over, is it now the time to start speculation?

I tire over this concept that speculation can’t be a valuable tool for pilots to discuss scenarios that aren’t driven by historical fact.

While the platform for such speculation is a real cause for concern, pilots should be both sharing personal facts and talking hypothetically to be their best...this absolute tank opinion on talk is unhelpful.

If one believes this forum is an inappropriate place, that’s one thing...but, speculation is actually healthy if done for the right reasons.

Certainly no one needs to be sharing their speculation with the family (or in view of the family, thus the only possible rational argument from keeping it out of here). Although, I think it should 100% be here...that is (one of) what this place is for. I can agree either way on that one because I understand we can’t contain what we say in here anymore like we could 10 years ago...although, I’m not sure I think it’s a horrible thing it even gets out if people could just stick to saying smart things.

Pilots should speculate with pilots. It breeds healthy discussions. Discussions keep us safer.

Keep privileged information just that...once the report is briefed...discussions become stifled.

It’s just my opinion, agree to disagree.

~Bendy


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Concur that post accident discussions, if done with appropriate maturity, can be a healthy way to grow as aviators.  However it’s also true that speculative discussions without facts often devolve into useless shit, much like eyewitness reports.  Unhelpful.

i go back and forth.  I love to chat with experienced people who can offer insights I wouldn’t otherwise know into this crucial question: how could a couple professionals trying their best to avoid an accident still experience one?  The answer is relevant to me today.  Right now.  And the safety process doesn’t satisfy.  On the other hand, attempts at having that discussion without emotional hysteria tainting the outcome are statistically unlikely.  That’s why seasoned aviators try putting a lid on the talk right away— they’ve lost friends only to immediately afterwards listen to uninformed speculation that usually trends downwards and helps no one.  It’s a tough situation.

i think we can’t avoid human nature, which is to speculate.  Since we can’t avoid it, the best option is to demonstrate the appropriate and mature way to execute it.  Which I think this forum mostly does well, despite inevitable chuckleheads who abuse anonymity and dangers of misinterpreting the tone of the written word.  The key here is everyone just assume the best about each other, as we all assume the best about the 2 victims of this tragic crash, and seek together finding ways we can avoid such a fate.  To them đŸ„ƒ

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I think the unwillingness to talk, even within “private” settings (phone call, face to face, etc.), is a negative byproduct of the safety empire. We immediately debrief every sortie and freely share lessons learned, but as soon as something bad happens, there is no debrief/lessons learned for anyone outside the immediate circle for months on end. Guys with direct knowledge of a mishap should be able to provide any initial info/lessons learned to bros around the community...maybe not on a public Internet forum, but certainly privately (including phone and email). 
 

Example: The Holloman strafe mishap that killed the contractor. I was a couple days from my guys flying CAS with hot guns, none of whom had flown CAS in the last year or so. I sought privately any debrief/LL info, as I wanted to pass those initial LL onto the guys; I was concerned about our low proficiency on the heels of a fatal mishap that occurred doing exactly what we were about to do. What I got was zero info, in the name of “safety process.” Cool, because of our safety overlords, we were denied any lessons learned, and pressed on. Turns out we got into a very similar situation a week later, except the pilot had enough experience to recognize it and avoid any problems. We literally almost repeated exactly the same mistake a week later, completely ignorant of what happened at Holloman and any initial lessons learned we could have applied to our own flying. That is a massive foul. 
 

Same exact thing happened recently with the two F-35 landing mishaps. Separated by a week, no initial info/thoughts passed to the F-35 CAF. Hill repeats similar conditions as Eglin. Only after that does an SII come out about landing. Could have easily killed a pilot a week later; all we had to do was pass initial thoughts debrief-style and Hill may not have happened. I flew probably 20 times after the mishaps before I knew what was going on...20 times I could have fucked up/ignorance is bliss. That’s bullshit. 

Edited by brabus
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