So I saw the Snowbirds are retiring the CT-114 Tutors with CT-157 Siskins (PC-21s)

https://aviationweek.com/defense/light-attack-advanced-training/canada-commits-pc-21s-replace-snowbirds-team

and I knew their demo team came from all career communities in the RCAF, kinda has to because of the size of the RCAF and need to cast a wide net then.

So I thought with the T-7 eventually becoming the universal trainer for the USAF why not re-equip the Thunderbirds with T-7s, open the application to all MAJCOMs and build a demo team from the entire AF rated pilot communities?

Why?

Represents the whole of the Air Force better; inspires, motivates and invigorates new pilots to reach for this opportunity thus bettering their communities; reduces the stovepipe cultural problem across the rated force and invigorates the demo team as a concept with this new direction.

Yeah, there’s some staff guy writing in that paragraph but I think it would be a good thing just because you’re telling the other guys, we want you to represent the flying skills and traditions of the Air Force in this very important way.

Training, costs, risk, implementation and all factors are important but I argue here for the concept, not details.

I yield the floor…

Because noise

You clearly don't know what it takes to fly precision loops to Van Halen, while taking all the 60 series.

Ultimately we just won’t have the airframes. As we’ve done now for the last few dozen acquisition programs we’re going to build the absolute bare minimum number of T-7s and then ponder, along with the great mysteries of the universe, why small fleet dynamics are once again biting us in the ass.

Vipers were built in big numbers for their time and ludicrous numbers by today’s standards. Meaning.. they’re some of the most maintainable aircraft we have, and because of that, very low impact on the force to use to run a demo team.

Do you forsee standards being lowered to make this occur? Specifically, are less dangerous maneuvers/formations going to be flown, or is the separation between jets going to be greater?

Is this idea thought of with the assumption that in the future all pilots will fly the T-7? If not, how long of a spin-up do you think will be required for pilots that have never even flown basic form in a jet?

If it isn't obvious, I'm skeptical. I feel compelled to state this isn't a fighter v heavy dick measuring contest. However, dudes thar dropped heavies from T-38s and then went to T-38 PIT after a heavy tour or 2 generally have some serious growing pains. Which is to be expected when their brains haven't had to think at those speeds/Vc etc in 3+ years.

Neck, there are viper dudes that have made the team and had to be cut later for flying issues. This is part of the reason I'd be concerned this approach will require a more significant investment in flight hours just to get these pilots comfortable with even basic formation flying.

5 hours ago, Pooter said:

Ultimately we just won’t have the airframes. As we’ve done now for the last few dozen acquisition programs we’re going to build the absolute bare minimum number of T-7s and then ponder, along with the great mysteries of the universe, why small fleet dynamics are once again biting us in the ass.

Vipers were built in big numbers for their time and ludicrous numbers by today’s standards. Meaning.. they’re some of the most maintainable aircraft we have, and because of that, very low impact on the force to use to run a demo team.

Valid point, not just for this idea but UPT plus other missions, the T-7 extra order will need to happen.

4 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

Do you forsee standards being lowered to make this occur? Specifically, are less dangerous maneuvers/formations going to be flown, or is the separation between jets going to be greater?

Is this idea thought of with the assumption that in the future all pilots will fly the T-7? If not, how long of a spin-up do you think will be required for pilots that have never even flown basic form in a jet?

If it isn't obvious, I'm skeptical. I feel compelled to state this isn't a fighter v heavy dick measuring contest. However, dudes thar dropped heavies from T-38s and then went to T-38 PIT after a heavy tour or 2 generally have some serious growing pains. Which is to be expected when their brains haven't had to think at those speeds/Vc etc in 3+ years.

Neck, there are viper dudes that have made the team and had to be cut later for flying issues. This is part of the reason I'd be concerned this approach will require a more significant investment in flight hours just to get these pilots comfortable with even basic formation flying.

All good and reasonable questions.

No drop in standards and as to maneuvers if the team converted to the T-7 the show would might change anyway.

I’d see the main path to the team (if they converted) not just for heavy pilots but all being from an AETC tour as an IP in the T-7 and after some time in that assignment and with the right recommendations, applying. That would solve the recency of flying some of those / similar maneuvers and currency in the jet.

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by Clark Griswold

7 hours ago, busdriver said:

You clearly don't know what it takes to fly precision loops to Van Halen, while taking all the 60 series.

Just the 60 series, I thought it was the entire NTTR...

5 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

Do you forsee standards being lowered to make this occur? Specifically, are less dangerous maneuvers/formations going to be flown, or is the separation between jets going to be greater?

Is this idea thought of with the assumption that in the future all pilots will fly the T-7? If not, how long of a spin-up do you think will be required for pilots that have never even flown basic form in a jet?

If it isn't obvious, I'm skeptical. I feel compelled to state this isn't a fighter v heavy dick measuring contest. However, dudes thar dropped heavies from T-38s and then went to T-38 PIT after a heavy tour or 2 generally have some serious growing pains. Which is to be expected when their brains haven't had to think at those speeds/Vc etc in 3+ years.

Neck, there are viper dudes that have made the team and had to be cut later for flying issues. This is part of the reason I'd be concerned this approach will require a more significant investment in flight hours just to get these pilots comfortable with even basic formation flying.

Valid points, might have been a different story when I went through in the days of Orville and Wilbur where we all flew T-38's. You point about speeds not sure I am fully on board, some heavy platforms fly a lot of formation, closer than you would think and requiring some heavy brain power to maneuver a large formation around. Not at all a dick measuring contest, the pointy nose community certainly has the market cornered on going faster, closer and upside down so it is a much easier transition versus a Tanker bro that doesn't exceed 45 degree of bank.

The real question would be is the juice worth the squeeze just to wear a tight red flight suit and sign autographs.

It is great to see the Thunderchickens fly fast and make noise, great recruiting tool that we should probably leave alone given the other real issues that need to be fixed. My only real beef with the T-birds is the program has turned into another platform to make fighter GOs. But life isn't fair so move on.

Quick funny story - during my tenure at the WIC my senior rater was the 57th Wing/CC. For my 2BPZ push to O-6 (which I made), the boss gave me a the highest strat in the wing, a strat that pissed off the then T-Bird/CC so much he later confronted me about it...Really Bra like it was my decision? Anyway, life isn't fair, move on.

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

My only real beef with the T-birds is the program has turned into another platform to make fighter GOs. But life isn't fair so move on.

So the exec mafia can get around the WIC.

8 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

I’d see the main path to the team (if they converted) not just for heavy pilots but all being from an AETC tour as an IP in the T-7 and after some time in that assignment and with the right recommendations, applying. That would solve the recency of flying some of those / similar maneuvers and currency in the jet.

Eh, good luck convincing CAF dudes that the path to the thunderbird's now leads through a UPT assignment just to be eligible to audition.

I think having that as a requirement for non-fighter types makes more sense. As alluded to though, is the juice worth the squeeze? What gap or deficiency does this solve other than giving more ppl opportunities to fly on the team?