Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[hindsight2020]

remember bois, this is ultimately being rammed through because they don't want to recapitalize the T-6. Just like the Tone, this is the alpha and the omega of the entire rot. The rest is sophist distractions. 

It goes beyond dereliction at this point; they're straight up conceding institutional sovereignty in chucking our Combat Airman development to the part 141 morass. And I can't get any more inside baseball without doxxing myself, but this guy said a mouthful: 

5 hours ago, viper154 said:

I flew with many of the initial IPT studs at CBM, the program is trash. 

100%. Folks here have no idea how bad. The metrics on IPT are being cooked/suppressed for upper management consumption. The reality is ugly.

[ViperMan]

6 hours ago, viper154 said:

Your error is the reference to “legacy”. He referring the syllabus before IPT was thing. In that syllabus they got 70? Ish T-6 hours and then straight to the FTU if they didn’t get 38s. 
 

I flew with many of the initial IPT studs at CBM, the program is trash. 

Ok, so I don't know the entire evolution of the _UPT timeline. I went circa '07 but already had my PPL, so I guess that meant I went around the time of IFT, but I didn't have to do it.

In my mind USAF pilot training has basically been:

UPT (60s, 70s, 80s).

(S)UPT (90s, 00s) - with some variation or another of intro to flying in some sort of prop airplane (may or may not have attained a PPL)...if my memory serves, I think people were given like 25 hours in a prop to see if they could do at least that.

Then, I get fuzzy. Was it IPT? with UPT 2.0, UPT Next, FUPT now? Seems like there was a schmorgasborg of choose your own adventures during the last 5-7 years.

Which iteration of legacy is being referred to. If it's UPT and SUPT of old, then they are certainly off base.

Edited yesterday at 03:16 AM by ViperMan

[ViperMan]

4 hours ago, Swizzle said:

the blue sacred cow = AD process and structure, the undisclosed non-negotiable

Chef's kiss on this phrase. Perfection. Poetic. Catch-22.

i.e. "We're doing this. So fuck you."

Edited yesterday at 03:15 AM by ViperMan

[viper154]

13 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

Ok, so I don't know the entire evolution of the _UPT timeline. I went circa '07 but already had my PPL, so I guess that meant I went around the time of IFT, but I didn't have to do it.

In my mind USAF pilot training has basically been:

UPT (60s, 70s, 80s).

(S)UPT (90s, 00s) - with some variation or another of intro to flying in some sort of prop airplane (may or may not have attained a PPL)...if my memory serves, I think people were given like 25 hours in a prop to see if they could do at least that.

Then, I get fuzzy. Was it IPT? with UPT 2.0, UPT Next, FUPT now? Seems like there was a schmorgasborg of choose your own adventures during the last 5-7 years.

Which iteration of legacy is being referred to. If it's UPT and SUPT of old, then they are certainly off base.

It was SUPT until 5-6 ish years ago. I don’t know when Doss started but you did that before UPT if you didn’t have a PPL. That was referred to as IFS, and 2018/19? it changed from IFS (initial flight screening) to IFT (Initial Flight Training) from what I told it was the same but changed from a screening program to a “training” program. 

2018/19 is when the SUPT most of us know started its change to the disaster we have now. I’m not super smart on the timeline, but I believe UPT next was a small and short program at Randolf/Austin, T-6 only, straight to a FTU. I think it only produced 20-40 grads. 
 

2021 ish started the 2.0/2.5 and several other syllabus re writes. 
 

22-24 The T-1 started sunsetting, and heavy folks started doing T-1 sim only programs. 2024 the T-1 sim only program sunset. They were not the regular T-1 sims, and while I’ve never been in one, from what I was told tbeh sucked. 
 

2025 -IPT/FUPT. IPT is the training program at civilian schools to get studs a PPL/Inst/multi rating. 

The “legacy” syllabus being referred to was similar to the 2.0/2.5 but had changes in when checkrides and how the mission phase was executed. (Honestly it might be the 2.5 syllabus, I can’t remember which was which, I started ram dumping that info when I left AD) it’s 20 ish more hours in the T-6 than FUPT. I believe the “legacy” syllabus is still being executed at several UPT bases. 
 

To sum that up. legacy = Doss IFT (or PPL) + trans/nav-inst/form/mission in the T-6. 
FUPT = civilian school, FAA grading standards, time building CFI instructors, FAA checkride PPL/inst Multi, and then 50 hours in the T-6 with no real dedicated nav/inst rides. 
 

That being said the “legacy” being referred to is totally different than what most of us went though, and is really only a year or so old. 
 

[ViperMan]

1 hour ago, viper154 said:

It was SUPT until 5-6 ish years ago. I don’t know when Doss started but you did that before UPT if you didn’t have a PPL. That was referred to as IFS, and 2018/19? it changed from IFS (initial flight screening) to IFT (Initial Flight Training) from what I told it was the same but changed from a screening program to a “training” program. 

2018/19 is when the SUPT most of us know started its change to the disaster we have now. I’m not super smart on the timeline, but I believe UPT next was a small and short program at Randolf/Austin, T-6 only, straight to a FTU. I think it only produced 20-40 grads. 
 

2021 ish started the 2.0/2.5 and several other syllabus re writes. 
 

22-24 The T-1 started sunsetting, and heavy folks started doing T-1 sim only programs. 2024 the T-1 sim only program sunset. They were not the regular T-1 sims, and while I’ve never been in one, from what I was told tbeh sucked. 
 

2025 -IPT/FUPT. IPT is the training program at civilian schools to get studs a PPL/Inst/multi rating. 

The “legacy” syllabus being referred to was similar to the 2.0/2.5 but had changes in when checkrides and how the mission phase was executed. (Honestly it might be the 2.5 syllabus, I can’t remember which was which, I started ram dumping that info when I left AD) it’s 20 ish more hours in the T-6 than FUPT. I believe the “legacy” syllabus is still being executed at several UPT bases. 
 

To sum that up. legacy = Doss IFT (or PPL) + trans/nav-inst/form/mission in the T-6. 
FUPT = civilian school, FAA grading standards, time building CFI instructors, FAA checkride PPL/inst Multi, and then 50 hours in the T-6 with no real dedicated nav/inst rides. 
 

That being said the “legacy” being referred to is totally different than what most of us went though, and is really only a year or so old. 
 

Thanks for the context.

[LookieRookie]

11 hours ago, kaputt said:

Generals who have probably never set foot in a GA aircraft, telling us what a good thing it is putting the Air Force’s future in the hands of a GA training pipeline, is hilarious to me. 

I’m not anti GA either; in fact I’m very active in the local GA scene. But GA flying, even the pilot mill schools, is a completely different culture and set up. 
 

 

CBM wants to setup a pre-IPT or post-IPT immersion/seminar.
 

  the SPs are having a really hard time transitioning to military flying because the ESA 141s basically have no standards and don’t have the same rca/rm decision making/debriefing/briefing/checklist discipline.

[Blue]

12 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

remember bois, this is ultimately being rammed through because they don't want to recapitalize the T-6. Just like the Tone, this is the alpha and the omega of the entire rot. The rest is sophist distractions. 

From the outside looking in, this does seem to make the most sense.

They've decided:

1.) They want X number of pilots

2.) The T-6 fleet as currently funded can only support Y number of hours

AETC leadership has been told to produce "X" pilots utilizing the available "Y" T-6 hours.  End of story.  If you can't do it, step aside, we'll find another General who can.

Curious what a proper recapitalization of the T-6 fleet would look like.  Is it a matter of needing to buy an entirely new aircraft (T-6C)?  Or is there a path where enough sustainment funding of the current fleet (modifications, upgrades, overhauls, etc) would get you the hours needed to avoid all of the current flailing about with 141 schools and the like?

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

If you can't do it, step aside, we'll find another General who can.

 

that's the fix. 

wish a general would have had the balls to do that during the 20 year GWOT disaster and wish a general had the balls integrity to say so now with the UPT disaster playing out in slow motion.

if you can't do it and the plan being shoved down the throats of line IPs is bull shit, then you should resign in protest. don't be a yes man simply to push a square peg in a round hole sts

Edited 10 hours ago by BashiChuni

[Clark Griswold]

If the Bobs are hell bent on divesting the T-6 with no military primary trainer (bad idea) and having only 141 school time prior to T-7 I think most of us here see disaster written all over it.

When it becomes apparent that an intermediate program is needed (if they won’t go and procure a mil intermediate trainer), is it financially possible to contract out an intermediate trainer without the problems of the non-standardized / directly supervised 141 schools?


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[Arkbird]

Any reason why the Air Force wouldn't buy the PC-21 since they keep blaming T-6 issues on maintenance and it being "old"? We also should have bought the already produced Italian trainer or Korean trainer as a T-38 replacement instead of the disaster that is the T-7.

[Blue]

29 minutes ago, Arkbird said:

Any reason why the Air Force wouldn't buy the PC-21 since they keep blaming T-6 issues on maintenance and it being "old"? We also should have bought the already produced Italian trainer or Korean trainer as a T-38 replacement instead of the disaster that is the T-7.

My cynical opinion: The Air Force has a finite amount of procurement dollars, and trainers are their last priority.

I think the only thing that got the T-7 over the finish line was that it provided a lifeline to Boeing's St Louis operation.

[Clark Griswold]

Pot stirring 

What if we ended ENJPT?  Shepherd would be a regular UPT base and the AF and USN more evenly split our training of allied student pilots?

Would that help appreciably the USAF in providing quality training (ie close or the same as UPT classic to the 1500 goal?

 

[Big Blue]

Been following this forum for a while now as it directly has impacted me the past year.  Current student at Columbus who was caught in the serious thrash of the IPT SGTO implementation in the fall of '24.  I completed T-6 academics, was screwed out of the flightline by the IPT group, waited around doing nothing for 7+ months, and then finally moved forward.  It was a front row seat to watching this all unfold and I have quite a few friends in the first IPT group.  

I have a genuine question for the group.  This past year has been nothing short of a disaster, with a lot of the frustrations of what happened to my original UPT class spilling over into my personal life.  To make matters worse, I made a big decision regarding my UPT path that was based on what I feel was a boldface lie from leadership.  I'm purposefully being vague so as not to dox myself on here.  It was a somewhat big move, but I found out after that decision was made that perhaps one problem was just traded for another and leadership withheld information from us.

I am not new to the Air Force (not a brand new Lt fresh out of college), so I've seen a bit of how this all goes.  After all the experiences the past year, I am really not sure if I want to continue when I have next to zero faith in Air Force leadership.  The certain mystique that Air Force pilots held to me for my whole life has been destroyed since now we are all getting the exact same training I was getting at a civilian flight school before getting picked up for UPT, and those that are not in IPT are getting shafted and short changed in every way, and at the risk of sounding dramatic, that has been a heartbreaking discovery.  I have been seriously considering DOR'ing and just separating from the Air Force and using my GI bill to pursue the aviation dream on my own.  Money aside, the thing keeping me is that I've been in other MAJCOMs and am well aware of AETC leadership's reputation.  But man after working so hard for years to get here, the experience has been a disaster and the second and third order effects of getting caught in this thrash has caused serious doubts about the Air Force as a whole and that looming 10 year ADSC.

I would love to hear thoughts on this.  Appreciate you all!

[Boomer6]

First, I wouldn't DOR, because I know I'd regret it. Second, welcome to the Air Force. I've had very similar management to what you're describing in multiple commands, so don't expect the skies to clear once you're done with UPT, YMMV.

Get through UPT, get your 10 years done and decide if you're going to go airlines, guard, or a combination of the two. Obviously, you can math out both paths to determine what sets up you and your family in the best financial spot.

However, if you decide to take your ball and go home, make sure the bobs know why.  Do it professionally, but make it known. It probably won't matter, but if you're doing well and quit, it will raise some eyebrows. If it becomes a trend, there's an RCH of a possibility something positive will come from it for those that follow.

[Jester203]

1 hour ago, Big Blue said:

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this.  Appreciate you all!

I won't dox myself either but I'm very familiar with the happenings at CBM. Do not DOR because you have to wait longer than anticipated to start training. I think that would be a monumental mistake. Yes the IPT situation sucks for the non-IPT folks but at the end of the day it's just time. I went through the pipeline before the IPT stuff started and it was still a 6-12 month wait between arrival at CBM and starting T-6 academics.

 

1 hour ago, Big Blue said:

we are all getting the exact same training I was getting at a civilian flight school

Outside of IPT I don't think this is remotely true. UPT is not like civilian training at all - that's the problem with IPT.

[StrikeOut312]

1 hour ago, Big Blue said:

I have been seriously considering DOR'ing and just separating from the Air Force and using my GI bill to pursue the aviation dream on my own.  Money aside, the thing keeping me is that I've been in other MAJCOMs and am well aware of AETC leadership's reputation.  But man after working so hard for years to get here, the experience has been a disaster and the second and third order effects of getting caught in this thrash has caused serious doubts about the Air Force as a whole and that looming 10 year ADSC.

 

What's your plan if you DOR and separate? Think long and hard about that. The airline hiring pendulum has swung back the other way from 1,500 hour wonders getting hired at the legacies. Once you get through pilot training, it is a different AF, and flying is (usually) awesome. You're in an exceptionally competitive program...study hard, let it ride. My gut says stick with it. My $0.02 is you'll regret it if you hang up the flightsuit.

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, Big Blue said:

Been following this forum for a while now as it directly has impacted me the past year.  Current student at Columbus who was caught in the serious thrash of the IPT SGTO implementation in the fall of '24.  I completed T-6 academics, was screwed out of the flightline by the IPT group, waited around doing nothing for 7+ months, and then finally moved forward.  It was a front row seat to watching this all unfold and I have quite a few friends in the first IPT group.  

I have a genuine question for the group.  This past year has been nothing short of a disaster, with a lot of the frustrations of what happened to my original UPT class spilling over into my personal life.  To make matters worse, I made a big decision regarding my UPT path that was based on what I feel was a boldface lie from leadership.  I'm purposefully being vague so as not to dox myself on here.  It was a somewhat big move, but I found out after that decision was made that perhaps one problem was just traded for another and leadership withheld information from us.

I am not new to the Air Force (not a brand new Lt fresh out of college), so I've seen a bit of how this all goes.  After all the experiences the past year, I am really not sure if I want to continue when I have next to zero faith in Air Force leadership.  The certain mystique that Air Force pilots held to me for my whole life has been destroyed since now we are all getting the exact same training I was getting at a civilian flight school before getting picked up for UPT, and those that are not in IPT are getting shafted and short changed in every way, and at the risk of sounding dramatic, that has been a heartbreaking discovery.  I have been seriously considering DOR'ing and just separating from the Air Force and using my GI bill to pursue the aviation dream on my own.  Money aside, the thing keeping me is that I've been in other MAJCOMs and am well aware of AETC leadership's reputation.  But man after working so hard for years to get here, the experience has been a disaster and the second and third order effects of getting caught in this thrash has caused serious doubts about the Air Force as a whole and that looming 10 year ADSC.

I would love to hear thoughts on this.  Appreciate you all!

Don’t quit, shit sucks sometimes but usually gets better.

This is 24 years of AF service from a 50 year old realistic optimist.

I had some tough times at UPT too, but quitting is likely to lead to later in life regrets you can’t quantum leap back and fix.  It also closes the door on what could be an awesome career.

My assignment out of UPT was Grand Forks, not my first choice mind you but I just got off the phone with a bud I’ve been friends with now for 24 years, we flew tankers together and I still have friends from all my AD assignments I keep in touch with.  The professional & personal satisfaction you’ll share with the guys you fly with and the camaraderie is something you can’t find anywhere else, I’m on year 3 at a legacy, I like my job but it’s not the same, not even close.

My first assignment was my best even though it was damn near bottom of the list.  I got to fly multiple aircraft, deploy and be part of historical events in some way and be part of an overall great organization.  I was down at some points too but I tell you, your career in the flying business is like the stock market, if you consistently invest in it over time the trend is upwards.  

Finishing UPT is the best investment you can make in your aviation career in my opinion.

 

[RASH]

CBM wants to setup a pre-IPT or post-IPT immersion/seminar.
 
  the SPs are having a really hard time transitioning to military flying because the ESA 141s basically have no standards and don’t have the same rca/rm decision making/debriefing/briefing/checklist discipline.

Ya think? /s


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[herkbier]

3 hours ago, Big Blue said:

Been following this forum for a while now as it directly has impacted me the past year.  Current student at Columbus who was caught in the serious thrash of the IPT SGTO implementation in the fall of '24.  I completed T-6 academics, was screwed out of the flightline by the IPT group, waited around doing nothing for 7+ months, and then finally moved forward.  It was a front row seat to watching this all unfold and I have quite a few friends in the first IPT group.  

I have a genuine question for the group.  This past year has been nothing short of a disaster, with a lot of the frustrations of what happened to my original UPT class spilling over into my personal life.  To make matters worse, I made a big decision regarding my UPT path that was based on what I feel was a boldface lie from leadership.  I'm purposefully being vague so as not to dox myself on here.  It was a somewhat big move, but I found out after that decision was made that perhaps one problem was just traded for another and leadership withheld information from us.

I am not new to the Air Force (not a brand new Lt fresh out of college), so I've seen a bit of how this all goes.  After all the experiences the past year, I am really not sure if I want to continue when I have next to zero faith in Air Force leadership.  The certain mystique that Air Force pilots held to me for my whole life has been destroyed since now we are all getting the exact same training I was getting at a civilian flight school before getting picked up for UPT, and those that are not in IPT are getting shafted and short changed in every way, and at the risk of sounding dramatic, that has been a heartbreaking discovery.  I have been seriously considering DOR'ing and just separating from the Air Force and using my GI bill to pursue the aviation dream on my own.  Money aside, the thing keeping me is that I've been in other MAJCOMs and am well aware of AETC leadership's reputation.  But man after working so hard for years to get here, the experience has been a disaster and the second and third order effects of getting caught in this thrash has caused serious doubts about the Air Force as a whole and that looming 10 year ADSC.

I would love to hear thoughts on this.  Appreciate you all!

Honest take: I understand you omitted a fair amount of information to protect your identity (smart) which may change my take.. but from what you wrote, you sound selfish as hell. If you’re willing to quit on this, go ahead. It sounds like a future airline career is driving your decision making; my opinion, that shouldn’t even be in the equation. 
 

All I ever wanted to do, was fly AF fighters growing up, I can’t imagine throwing that chance away because of UPT reindeer games (I’ll obviously concede these aren’t minor games). I went through UPT when one or two guys got fighters and a large portion were sent to RPAs. It would’ve been easy to be down and depressed, but most guys and gals weren’t, they kept positive attitudes, ate the shit sandwiches, and pressed. It’s cliche, but I think there should be a little bit of Service Before Self.. 
 

I got lucky, although I didn’t get -38s, I still got to fly some incredible missions to interesting places that made differences in peoples lives—not all the time certainly, and often only at the tactical/operational level, but a handful of strategic impacts as well. 
 

I would not think of quitting over UPT syllabus and timeline shenanigans. 

[raimius]

4 hours ago, Big Blue said:

Been following this forum for a while now as it directly has impacted me the past year.  Current student at Columbus who was caught in the serious thrash of the IPT SGTO implementation in the fall of '24.  I completed T-6 academics, was screwed out of the flightline by the IPT group, waited around doing nothing for 7+ months, and then finally moved forward.  It was a front row seat to watching this all unfold and I have quite a few friends in the first IPT group.  

I have a genuine question for the group.  This past year has been nothing short of a disaster, with a lot of the frustrations of what happened to my original UPT class spilling over into my personal life.  To make matters worse, I made a big decision regarding my UPT path that was based on what I feel was a boldface lie from leadership.  I'm purposefully being vague so as not to dox myself on here.  It was a somewhat big move, but I found out after that decision was made that perhaps one problem was just traded for another and leadership withheld information from us.

I am not new to the Air Force (not a brand new Lt fresh out of college), so I've seen a bit of how this all goes.  After all the experiences the past year, I am really not sure if I want to continue when I have next to zero faith in Air Force leadership.  The certain mystique that Air Force pilots held to me for my whole life has been destroyed since now we are all getting the exact same training I was getting at a civilian flight school before getting picked up for UPT, and those that are not in IPT are getting shafted and short changed in every way, and at the risk of sounding dramatic, that has been a heartbreaking discovery.  I have been seriously considering DOR'ing and just separating from the Air Force and using my GI bill to pursue the aviation dream on my own.  Money aside, the thing keeping me is that I've been in other MAJCOMs and am well aware of AETC leadership's reputation.  But man after working so hard for years to get here, the experience has been a disaster and the second and third order effects of getting caught in this thrash has caused serious doubts about the Air Force as a whole and that looming 10 year ADSC.

I would love to hear thoughts on this.  Appreciate you all!

If you want to be a great pilot, you need to intentionally seek training and experience.  Right now, the AF is on a trajectory to give slightly above average training vs the excellent we expected.  That doesn't mean you can't get great training from the AF...but it certainly means you will have to search harder and work more.