The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Smokin]

So apparently if you want to be in shape, you're a Hitler Youth? 

Also, how did the left succeed in pulling the switch-a-roo on making the Nazis right wing?  Last I checked the official party title was the National Socialist German Workers Party.  Only a the modern American liberal could come up with something so absurd as a Socialist Workers party being right wing.

[Prozac]

17 hours ago, Smokin said:

So apparently if you want to be in shape, you're a Hitler Youth? 

Also, how did the left succeed in pulling the switch-a-roo on making the Nazis right wing?  Last I checked the official party title was the National Socialist German Workers Party.  Only a the modern American liberal could come up with something so absurd as a Socialist Workers party being right wing.

Uhhh no. Only a broken education system and a public with a complete lack of historical curiosity would believe that the Nazi party was actually socialist. Despite the name, they were very much fascist by the time they gained power, which is in fact, about as right wing as you can get. I dunno, maybe open a history book or two once in a while? 🤷‍♂️ 

BTW: completely agree the MSNBC story is ludicrous. 

[bfargin]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

Uhhh no. Only a broken education system and a public with a complete lack of historical curiosity would believe that the Nazi party was actually socialist. Despite the name, they were very much fascist by the time they gained power, which is in fact, about as right wing as you can get. I dunno, maybe open a history book or two once in a while? 🤷‍♂️ 

BTW: completely agree the MSNBC story is ludicrous. 

They were very much socialist until they got into power...just like all of the other socialist countries' leadership has done. I'd argue the political spectrum can't be viewed as a tape-measure/line but rather as a loop/circle and the far left and far right meet on the backside at fascism. Small sample but look at the antifa/BLM movements and see how they are fascists in their own right but claim to be on the leftist end of things. Both extremes end with absolute control and tyranny.

[Prozac]

6 hours ago, bfargin said:

They were very much socialist until they got into power...just like all of the other socialist countries' leadership has done. I'd argue the political spectrum can't be viewed as a tape-measure/line but rather as a loop/circle and the far left and far right meet on the backside at fascism. Small sample but look at the antifa/BLM movements and see how they are fascists in their own right but claim to be on the leftist end of things. Both extremes end with absolute control and tyranny.

Nice try linking today’s left to the Nazis. The far left and the far right don’t come close to meeting. They are polar opposites. At the far left end you have socialism (you know, real actual socialism where the government owns and runs everything…usually poorly, vs. calling anyone who ever voted for a democrat a socialist) and communism. On the far right is fascism/nationalism (like the Nazis….I won’t go into their history or why they were never really Socialist here. There are plenty of places to read all about it). Agree that both extremes lead to absolutism & eventual collapse which is why most aspiring normal folk should strive to stay far, far away from the fringes. 

[Milton]

16 hours ago, Prozac said:

Nice try linking today’s left to the Nazis. The far left and the far right don’t come close to meeting. They are polar opposites. At the far left end you have socialism (you know, real actual socialism where the government owns and runs everything…usually poorly, vs. calling anyone who ever voted for a democrat a socialist) and communism. On the far right is fascism/nationalism (like the Nazis….I won’t go into their history or why they were never really Socialist here. There are plenty of places to read all about it). Agree that both extremes lead to absolutism & eventual collapse which is why most aspiring normal folk should strive to stay far, far away from the fringes. 

Unfortunately the notions of "left" and "right" today are obscured by cultural and historic definitions, as the left and right "wings" harken back to the national assembly during the period of the French Revolution.  The two-dimensional "political spectrum" only muddies these concepts as, in practice, separating economic and social liberty (or control) is near impossible.  People tend to form political associations based on broad ideological beliefs (e.g. freedom vs control) or by more empirical or granular issues (e.g. tax rates, abortion, gun control, regulation, etc), none of which are easily placed in a single quadrant.

Assuming the "far left" and "far right," meaning the commonly understood totalitarian ideologies of communism and fascism, don't come close to "meeting" presents a false choice, with the "moderate" position simply being placed between the two.  Communism (or in practice, socialism) and fascism have more in common than most realize as they are both collectivist ideologies that subordinate the individual to the group, whose locus of control is by default the state.  Unlike classical liberalism, neither recognizes the sanctity of the individual, and their rights, if any, are merely utilitarian and subject to the whims of the state and the party.  The term "fascism" has latin roots, symbolically as a bundle of sticks fastened together (symbolizing the strength of the group under the leader).  The ideological origins of fascism in Italy, first authored by Giovanni Gentile and practiced by Mussolini, were actually socialist in character. 

Quote

Gentile went so far as to declare “Fascism is a form of socialism, in fact, it is its most viable form.” One of the most common reflections on this is that fascism is itself socialism based on national identity.

https://fee.org/articles/theres-no-denying-the-socialist-roots-of-fascism/

Gentile was influenced not only by Karl Marx, the father of authoritarian socialism, but also Hegel, who was essentially the ideological grandfather of authoritarian socialism (Marx's main man), having developed the notions of dialectical historicism and German idealism (awful!).  His convoluted philosophy ultimately boils down to nothing more than nineteenth century alchemy that influenced a number of terrible ideas and regimes.

While many historical and contemporary advocates of socialism have decried any common ideological roots or practical similarities between socialism/communism and fascism/nazism, these splinters are regular features in their ideologies.  For example, the infighting between Bolsheviks & Mensheviks during the Russian Revolution, the left-opposition against the Stalinist "right," the purging of party members following Lenin's death (and Trotsky's ultimate demise by icepick to the skull) under Stalin, the Night of the Long Knives (Nazi "socialist workers party" members killed by Hitler), and so on.  These ideological "splits" demonstrate that just because one faction is opposed to the other, they are not polar opposites but merely dissenting factions.  

Practically speaking, both Nazism/fascism and socialism/communism as political and economic systems concentrate power under the state.  Both are opposed to free market capitalism, private property rights, and individual liberty.  Its well understood that both systems restrict or eliminate civil liberties and clamp down on dissent, freedom of speech/expression, privacy, etc.  What's more telling is the similarity in their economic systems.  Many socialist ideologies  propose that the means of production will be owned by "the workers" which, due to its absurdity, gives rise to the state ownership of production, i.e. a centrally planned, state-run economy that eliminates market and price signals and private property rights.  Fascism and nazism likewise take control of existing private enterprises, eliminate or restrict property rights, and establish wage and price controls under state mandates.  

Quote

As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer.

Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it.

Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions.

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

Here's an even better example.  Look at the proposed economic policies of a Bernie Sanders (Democratic Socialist) or an Elizabeth Warren (Progressive Dem) type and compare them to Fascist Italy...

Quote

A former school teacher, Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed".^[21] As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".^[22] When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".^[23]

By 1925, the Fascist government had "embarked upon an elaborate program" that included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing and old age and disability insurance.^[24] As for public works, the Mussolini's administration "devoted 400 million lire of public monies" for school construction between 1922 and 1942, compared to only 60 million lire between 1862 and 1922.^[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Fascist_Italy

I'm sure none of us favor a political or economic system that is "far left" (communist) or "far right (fascist)" but given this dichotomy would likely describe ourselves as "moderate."  But placing oneself in between fascism and communism is...absurd.  If one were to ask your political beliefs, would you say "Well, I'm somewhere between Stalin and Hitler"?  That...doesn't sound right.   If we look at the ideologies and history of these regimes, it becomes obvious that liberal, free-market capitalism (what we nominally have in the West) is not in between the far left and far right, but rather completely separate and opposed to either system.  If anything, fascism is between free market capitalism and communism.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Milton

[dream big]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:53 AM, Prozac said:

Uhhh no. Only a broken education system and a public with a complete lack of historical curiosity would believe that the Nazi party was actually socialist. Despite the name, they were very much fascist by the time they gained power, which is in fact, about as right wing as you can get. I dunno, maybe open a history book or two once in a while? 🤷‍♂️ 

BTW: completely agree the MSNBC story is ludicrous. 

Socialism and fascism are not mutually exclusive.  Ask Russia, Venezuela and many others.  The former is an economic system while the latter is a form of governance. 

[Smokin]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:53 PM, Prozac said:

Uhhh no. Only a broken education system and a public with a complete lack of historical curiosity would believe that the Nazi party was actually socialist. Despite the name, they were very much fascist by the time they gained power, which is in fact, about as right wing as you can get. I dunno, maybe open a history book or two once in a while? 🤷‍♂️ 

BTW: completely agree the MSNBC story is ludicrous. 

Nice try, but I have a masters degree in history, so I have opened a history book or two or hundreds or thousands.  I agree and understand that calling yourself something does not mean that you enact that system.  But, as others have pointed out, the Nazis were not pure socialists, but their economic system of governance was much more towards the socialist side than the capitalist side.  Some have claimed that Hitler actually privatized large parts of the German economy, such as the railroads, but it should be noted that new majority stakeholder that benefited from that privatization was an early supporter of Hitler and was heavily involved in government activities.  That is hardly a free market.  Germany moved significantly away from a capitalist society under the Nazi rule and even "private" (Lufthansa, BMW, etc) companies were not free to do as they desired in a capitalist free market but were often directed what to do and how to do it by the Nazi government.  That is strongly on the socialist side of the economic spectrum, thus it is reasonable that the Nazis when they called themselves socialists and were in fact socialists.

Also, as others have pointed out, politics are often too complicated to put on a simple linear model.  But if you were to make a simplified American political thought process on a linear spectrum, a larger and more invasive government is the left side, and a smaller and less invasive government would be on the right side.  While greatly simplified, the Nazis would clearly fall on the far left in this model.

[CaptainMorgan]

Nice try, but I have a masters degree in history.

Are you proud of this?


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[Guardian]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pentagon-equity-plan

How much diversity is enough? And how many levels of diversity? I’ve got to have equal Jewish and Italian demographics for mechanics for the percentage of New Yorkers assigned to Joint base Langley or whatever it’s being called now.

I still blame Fingers Goldfien for his part in this. 2 years of UPT should only contain minorities. Our military is off its rocker.

[HeloDude]

4 minutes ago, Guardian said:

How much diversity is enough?

It will never be enough, and that’s by design.  Telling a certain group of people that they’re not doing well because of racism, bigotry, etc and that one political party/philosophy will solve it equates to votes/power/money…so it can never end/be completed.

Similarly, take a look at the NFL.  The left is literally saying that the NFL is racist…the NFL.

Edited April 17, 2022 by HeloDude

[Guardian]

Similarly, take a look at the NFL.  The left is literally saying that the NFL is racist…the NFL.

I kinda have to agree with them. There shouldn’t be a league based off performance. It should be strictly based off arbitrary percentages of made up identifiers that have nothing to do with football. Start with just one team and let the rest do their thing. You’ll see that one team will be amazing because of its arbitrary diversity.

[nunya]

13 minutes ago, Guardian said:

I kinda have to agree with them. There shouldn’t be a league based off performance. It should be strictly based off arbitrary percentages of made up identifiers that have nothing to do with football. Start with just one team and let the rest do their thing. You’ll see that one team will be amazing because of its arbitrary diversity.

 

This is my chance to be an NFL corner!  

[dream big]

7 hours ago, Guardian said:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pentagon-equity-plan

How much diversity is enough? And how many levels of diversity? I’ve got to have equal Jewish and Italian demographics for mechanics for the percentage of New Yorkers assigned to Joint base Langley or whatever it’s being called now.

I still blame Fingers Goldfien for his part in this. 2 years of UPT should only contain minorities. Our military is off its rocker.

This should come of no surprise, look at our CINC, VP, administration and the views they hold, not to mention the CJCS, SECDEF, and so on.  They mask their sheer incompetence with virtue signaling (remember the useless one sided “extremism down days” last year) and race baiting.  Putin couldn’t have picked a better time and the Chinese are laughing at us.  But hey, at least we can put our preferred pronouns in our email block!  

[busdriver]

Did any of you actually read the action plan?

[Guardian]

Who are you asking? And what action plan are you talking about?

[busdriver]

16 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Who are you asking? And what action plan are you talking about?

It's linked in the article you posted.  Second link.

https://media.defense.gov/2022/Apr/13/2002976515/-1/-1/0/DOD-EQUITY-ACTION-PLAN.PDF

 

[Guardian]

I didn’t. And I just tried. But I stopped after I read the word equity twice. It’s amazing how racism is passed off as furthering our military. Equity isn’t equal. It’s pushing some people with certain identifiers down to forcibly push others with different identifiers up regardless of the effects on the system or actual effectiveness of the system. Which means it’s racist.

[Guardian]

I tried again. Made it to page 7. “Equity” everywhere. Listen, if you are on purpose making systems to hold people back, then that isn’t fair for all.

A system where the best of the best are taken and improved upon and allows for each individuals natural talent to shine and have an impact on the whole system is where fairness and the whole system is better for it. I’m all for having programs in communities where lees opportunities are as an example, but when you take that and morph it into a system that pushes those ahead of more qualified and experienced others to a detriment of the system then what would you call that?

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

I tried again. Made it to page 7. 

It's full of political buzzwords, but the substance is mostly stuff they were probably doing anyways (investing in base schools, helping spouses get jobs, etc. etc)  There's a bit of investing in STEM at HBCUs and the like, but whatever.

So basically, standard response from the bureaucracy.  Insert all the buzzwords into the current plan and claim to be doing the thing.

[CaptainMorgan]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Swizzle]

6 hours ago, busdriver said:

It's linked in the article you posted.  Second link.

https://media.defense.gov/2022/Apr/13/2002976515/-1/-1/0/DOD-EQUITY-ACTION-PLAN.PDF

 

Seems all spin...though the K-20 investment got my attention. Direct assessions maybe? Professionals getting different signing bonuses maybe? Preferential placement?

In the military installation serving under-represented, assumably minority populations...does that mean cleaning up fuel leaks on Pacific Islanders' ancient homelands? Or can we assume that is PFAS/PFOS cleanup near old farms? How about fuel cleanup near Pueblos? ...which the DoD is already doing.

[HeloDude]

Big tech doubles down on the nonsense pushed by the left…

https://www.foxnews.com/us/apple-iphone-update-pregnant-man-gender-neutral-emoji?cmpid=fb_fbn&fbclid=IwAR0P3K1Hi6pTsdbDY2hNt0eGJKJ1vNhu3MHFsCNSrweyoawhv-EbrtwefD0

[guineapigfury]

5 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Big tech doubles down on the nonsense pushed by the left…

https://www.foxnews.com/us/apple-iphone-update-pregnant-man-gender-neutral-emoji?cmpid=fb_fbn&fbclid=IwAR0P3K1Hi6pTsdbDY2hNt0eGJKJ1vNhu3MHFsCNSrweyoawhv-EbrtwefD0

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110216/

[dream big]

On 4/17/2022 at 8:23 AM, busdriver said:

It's linked in the article you posted.  Second link.

https://media.defense.gov/2022/Apr/13/2002976515/-1/-1/0/DOD-EQUITY-ACTION-PLAN.PDF

 

And this makes us more competitive  against China…how? 

Edited April 19, 2022 by dream big

[Guardian]

Their fighting force is only focused on winning. That’s so silly. Surely they will lose because they aren’t focused on pronouns and diversity.