Af Missile Crew Sleeps On The Job

[tac airlifter]

Yep, that confirms my stereotype of missile dudes.

[LJ Driver]

The crew members were coming off a shift at a missile alert facility about 70 miles from Minot Air Force Base when they fell asleep in a secure crew rest area, Arellano said. The crew had with them code components — classified devices that allow them to communicate with missiles. Launch codes are part of the components, which were described as large, metal boxes.

What is the issue here? They were in a SECURE CREW REST AREA. And they were resting? Ummmmmmm, ok then.

[Dupe]

...when they fell asleep in a secure crew rest area...

Someone in the missle world please educate us on the purpose and proper use of a crew rest area. If someone showed me to a crew rest area after long shift in a hole, I'd promptly fall asleep.

[StoleIt]

Wow...that is pretty extreme IMO.

I concur with Nsplayr. Odds were they just pulled a triple shift or whatever crappy deal is standard for those dudes and the bus was several hours late. If they were in a "secured" REST area...whats the big deal? It's not like they were at the tittie bar.

So Big Blue does what it always does and throws the crew under the bus.

I would really like to know some background on this...rather than they just "fell asleep." But why? I mean I actually thought these shifts were only pulled by two people anyway...

[Guest BigSkyGuy]

I'm one of those missile types and common sense is very difficult to find anywhere in the missile business. The "secure" rest area was topside at a launch facility. The stuff they were carrying around needs two people to be awake at all times. They did mess up. The crew was waiting for permission to leave and return to base and took a siesta. The suck is they had been at the site for the last 5 days doing some very very stressful and difficult work on some weird shift schedules. Having been in that position before you are maxed out and it is really hard to keep focus. I think that some of the previous posts were correct. It is a shame to shoot yourself in the foot like this. I know the captain mentioned in the article and he is a great guy. It's a shame when this sort of thing happens to good people. I personally think they were a victim of bad press/timing as well. If this hadn’t been on top of the other negative press that Minot was receiving last year it might not have been as bad. This is a great post/article for studs to read as motivation to get through upt...

[JarheadBoom]

Am I the only one detecting the "This is what will happen to anyone else who fucks up with nukes" vibe?

edit: format

Edited July 15, 2009 by JarheadBoom

[Wolf424]

In light of what has happened there in the last couple of years, Minot must be just that much more miserable right now.

[drewpey]

One of the three crew members notified senior officers that they had fallen asleep, Arellano said.

Thank you for your honesty....now GTFO!

stabbed in the back and kicked in the nuts...on the bright side, no more minot?

[Fud]

Am I the only one detecting the "This is what will happen to anyone else who ######s up with nukes" vibe?

edit: format

I can confirm many of these things, and I also agree with BigSkyGuy, F16Rooster, and everyone else that has pulled crew. Let me start by saying that the USAF, and the US in general, is a reactive culture. Instead of being proactive, we tend to react to things with full force when the situation does not call for it. The unofficial story goes something like this. Four crew members were out on alert at the Alternate Command Post (ACP). This is where you send, or should send, your most knowledgeable people. The four crew members were out in the field for five days, and on the fifth day, they were relieved and came upstairs. The concept of A-1/A-2 crews exists so that two members can deal with all of the maintenance during the day, and then go topside while the other two man crew comes down to fill out paperwork, ensure dispatch information is correct, and get everything in order for the following day. Three of the crew members were in the crew rest area awaiting the call to get to go home. There has to be separation between the components from each capsule; this is why they were waiting. They all dozed off, when the other crew member came in the room and discovered they were sleeping. After ensuring that nothing was wrong or missing, the crew talked about how they would go about reporting the incident. They decided to keep the incident quiet, but if they were going to tell they would do it together. Six hours later, the female officer met with her commander alone telling her what happened.

The proper thing was done per the regulations, but as you have already said in this post, it should not have been done. I think it is better to keep things at the lowest levels if you can, because the leadership will typically react in an "over the top" manner. Three good officers were removed from the Air Force, simply because they committed a procedural violation, which is wrong. I can comment further, but I'll refrain for now.

[Bergman]

After ensuring that nothing was wrong or missing, the crew talked about how they would go about reporting the incident. They decided to keep the incident quiet, but if they were going to tell they would do it together. Six hours later, the female officer met with her commander alone telling her what happened.

The proper thing was done per the regulations, but as you have already said in this post, it should not have been done. I think it is better to keep things at the lowest levels if you can, because the leadership will typically react in an "over the top" manner. Three good officers were removed from the Air Force, simply because they committed a procedural violation, which is wrong. I can comment further, but I'll refrain for now.

Guess that is why it's called the "bro network", if it ever existed in the missile world. It certainly is dead now, along with common sense apparently.

Can you call females "douches"?? I guess shithead will have to suffice. UFB!

[gmwalk]

I have been reading this thread with some interest. I was missile MX person some years ago. Occasionally me or my team members would see minor procedural errors; if no one got hurt and overall security wasn't compromised we would deal with within the team. This meant that the person or person's that caused the problem were appropriately "re-trained" by the team chief. They were also given the grunt work for however long the team chief deemed appropriate to the infraction. It can tell you that the same mistakes never happened twice and everyone on the team trusted each other.

If someone made a major mistake something that compromised the safety of the team, or caused a security breech then it would get pushed to the shop chief to handle.

While this incident violated security policy, it doesn't appear the codes were compromised or the security of the systems were in danger. It sounds like the chain of command might have been reacting to a perceived security violation and a cover up by the team. If the higher ups thought there was a cover up happening they might have been reacting more harshly to that.

Edited July 16, 2009 by gmwalk

[Guest Form 8]

Guess that is why it's called the "bro network", if it ever existed in the missile world. It certainly is dead now, along with common sense apparently.

Can you call females "douches"?? I guess shithead will have to suffice. UFB!

Same thing happened in the flying world last winter at the base I was deployed to.

On departure a crew (new female AC, experienced Copilot, Instructor Boom) oversped the flaps by 1-2 knots. The female AC wants to write it up in the forms (mandatory), the Copilot wanted to keep it quiet since it was like 1-2 knots and after a quick ops check they checked out fine. She freaks out, writes it up in the forms, and then goes and tells the Sq/CC about it. He Q3's both the AC and Copilot. Maintenance inspects the flaps to find nothing wrong with them.

[BQZip01]

Same thing happened in the flying world last winter at the base I was deployed to.

On departure a crew (new female AC, experienced Copilot, Instructor Boom) oversped the flaps by 1-2 knots. The female AC wants to write it up in the forms (mandatory), the Copilot wanted to keep it quiet since it was like 1-2 knots and after a quick ops check they checked out fine. She freaks out, writes it up in the forms, and then goes and tells the Sq/CC about it. He Q3's both the AC and Copilot. Maintenance inspects the flaps to find nothing wrong with them.

1. You potentially damaged the aircraft. Fessing up could save lives for the next crew(s) that fly the plane. In any case, it is black letter and MUST be followed.

2. Ops checked and it's ok? WTF? You aren't the approving authority for that!

3. Why Q3 the AC? She was the one that wrote it up (unless she was to blame and there was more to it than that). I've been in an aircraft with oversped flaps (big gust after takeoff)...land as soon as conditions permit, write it up, and learn. No big deal

4. Q3 for the Co for trying to cover it up makes sense.

[Guest Form 8]

1. You potentially damaged the aircraft. Fessing up could save lives for the next crew(s) that fly the plane. In any case, it is black letter and MUST be followed.

2. Ops checked and it's ok? WTF? You aren't the approving authority for that!

3. Why Q3 the AC? She was the one that wrote it up (unless she was to blame and there was more to it than that). I've been in an aircraft with oversped flaps (big gust after takeoff)...land as soon as conditions permit, write it up, and learn. No big deal

4. Q3 for the Co for trying to cover it up makes sense.

1. Agreed, I wasn't part of the crew.

2. Agreed, I wasn't part of the crew. That's the train of thought the Copilot had.

3. Because for one she's the AC, for two she was the Pilot Not Flying (PNF). Both pilot's were task saturated during takeoff and she failed to catch(i.e. back up the PF) the flap overspeed until it was too late.

4. They could of also Q3'd the IB since he's up front and due to his experience level/being an instructor.

[slacker]

1. You potentially damaged the aircraft. Fessing up could save lives for the next crew(s) that fly the plane. In any case, it is black letter and MUST be followed.

2. Ops checked and it's ok? WTF? You aren't the approving authority for that!

3. Why Q3 the AC? She was the one that wrote it up (unless she was to blame and there was more to it than that). I've been in an aircraft with oversped flaps (big gust after takeoff)...land as soon as conditions permit, write it up, and learn. No big deal

4. Q3 for the Co for trying to cover it up makes sense.

The A/C did the right thing- she should have taken this as a training opportunity for the copilot. The SQ/CC is obviously a tremendous douche and his retarded actions will cause future crews to cover up the next overspeed or rule infraction. There must be more to this story- a 1-2 knot flap overspeed is definitely not worthy of a Q2 much less a Q3.

[Guest Form 8]

The A/C did the right thing- she should have taken this as a training opportunity for the copilot. The SQ/CC is obviously a tremendous douche and his retarded actions will cause future crews to cover up the next overspeed or rule infraction. There must be more to this story- a 1-2 knot flap overspeed is definitely not worthy of a Q2 much less a Q3.

He was a prior C-17 guy. Major douchebag.

[Danny Noonin]

1. You potentially damaged the aircraft. Fessing up could save lives for the next crew(s) that fly the plane. In any case, it is black letter and MUST be followed.

You can't be serious. They over sped the flaps by ONE or TWO KNOTS. What do you think they were flying, an airplane made out of popsicle sticks? Do you really think the engineers set the overspeed numbers such that a one or two knot overspeed would literally damage the airplane to the point of causing disaster for the next flight?

She freaks out, writes it up in the forms, and then goes and tells the Sq/CC about it.

What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here? Why does everyone feel the need to tell on everyone else. Doesn't anyone have any balls to handle problems themselves anymore? Well...in this case I guess that's a poor choice of words.

[Fud]

What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here? Why does everyone feel the need to tell on everyone else. Doesn't anyone have any balls to handle problems themselves anymore? Well...in this case I guess that's a poor choice of words.

This is typical behavior in the missile world. The problem is that we live in a huge world of "What Ifs?", and the leadership punishes to the extreme. When a sortie (I don't know why they call it that) is targeted incorrectly, everyone flips out. The common statement will be "Well, if we had gone to nuclear war, then we would have hit the wrong target." The other factor is that we really don't do anything worthwhile in the job to distinguish ourselves, so people feel the need to get ahead by stabbing others in the back. I see this in some aircraft communities, but not all since you guys have to rely on each other to survive. 2 on what someone here said about alert outbriefs. That is the dumbest idea I have ever heard of, and I'm glad that I'll be done with this shit real soon.

[nsplayr]

On the whole overspeeding the flaps thing...I'd blame it on some faulty gauges. Who's airspeed gauges are 100% balls on down to each single knot 100% of the time? IMO a good A-code would call it that if anything at all and handle any real or perceived issues in the brief.

[PolyestherDuck]

He was a prior C-17 guy. Major douchebag.

And guess what the co-pilot learned from this? Probably not to write it up since his leadership will only f$#^ him.

One of my buds from UPT over-G'd his Eagle. He spent the next two days pulling panels with the MX folks and learning to inspect. No Q3. No Article 15. This kind of crap goes right along with Zero Tolerance policies. My kid can't have a cough drop unless administered by the nurse?

[Springer]

After going from the AF to the airlines have to say the airline I was with had it all over the AF wrt attitude in training, evaluations, and operations.

[BQZip01]

You can't be serious. They over sped the flaps by ONE or TWO KNOTS. What do you think they were flying, an airplane made out of popsicle sticks? Do you really think the engineers set the overspeed numbers such that a one or two knot overspeed would literally damage the airplane to the point of causing disaster for the next flight?

It is a black line for a reason! I've been in an aircraft when I oversped the flaps by 5 knots (the fact that I did it on a checkride and in the commander's jet didn't help the situation...). That overspeed was enough to push the flaps out of their track.

You don't crucify someone for something like that, but you make it a learning experience. You can certainly assign menial tasks, but you don't sabotage a whole career over it (BTW, making them sit with maintenance until they checked the whole system [earlier in the comments above] was a particularly creative and appropriate punishment).

If you treat non-life-threatening/critical mistakes as career killers, people WILL start hiding things because they have no choice (which would you do? Not report something that you are 99% sure isn't an issue? or face being grounded and possibly sent to a board?).

I'll refer you to this board for more GOOD CC stories: http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15686-af-leadership-done-right/

but here's a preview:

Here's a 'war story' as told to me by a Lieutenant Colonel (I'll tell it as I remember it was told to me):

"There I was: I was stepping to the [T-1] jet when I was told I'd be getting a no-notice checkride as a Senior Captain. I was told the week prior that I was up for an ADO position after I returned from SOS in-residence (which started the following week). My wife had also been having some medical problems, but still, with all that, I felt I was ok to fly and didn't feel intimidated by all the extraneous "life clutter" on top of a checkride. As we took off, we experienced an engine fire in #1. We ran the boldface, but I felt WAY behind the jet all the way back to the field, to the point it kind of scared me. We shut the engine down and landed. As we stepped to a spare, I didn't feel I was fit to fly and I told the group evaluator pilot that I wasn't going to go. He insisted that I had to. I told him he was wrong.

"Well, they took off without me and I went back to my squadron and reported to my commander what had happened. He told me to go home and rest for a few days. Once I got home, I told my wife what happened. She asked, 'Well, what are they going to do with you?' I said I'd probably lose my SOS spot and the chance to be an ADO. Three days later, the commander called me in. He informed me that the Eval IP was none too pleased and was royally pissed about the whole situation and that he took it to the group commander...who kicked it back to the squadron commander to deal with. He then stated that the SOS slot had been given to someone else and the ADO slot had been filled.

"The squadron commander then told me that I should go home and get my personal affairs in order and take some relaxation time...

"...he said to come back to work when I was ready, but cautioned that I'd need the rest...because I was coming back as his DO!!! He then stated that SOS was available whenever I was ready for it."

In short, the commander rewarded someone for doing the right thing in the face of a superior illegally countermanding such actions.

Edited July 16, 2009 by BQZip01

[Bergman]

Same thing happened in the flying world last winter at the base I was deployed to.

On departure a crew (new female AC, experienced Copilot, Instructor Boom) oversped the flaps by 1-2 knots. The female AC wants to write it up in the forms (mandatory), the Copilot wanted to keep it quiet since it was like 1-2 knots and after a quick ops check they checked out fine. She freaks out, writes it up in the forms, and then goes and tells the Sq/CC about it. He Q3's both the AC and Copilot. Maintenance inspects the flaps to find nothing wrong with them.

Again, UFB! Who the fuck can tell 1-2 knots on those 50 year old airspeed and flap indicators? She's an idiot. Anyone who has flown the -135 for more than 6-9 months could guess what the outcome of the MX inspection would be. This is what happens when you upgrade people with 800 total time yet no judgement.

FWIW, I am intimately familiar with the departure you are talking about and this sort of shit happpens on almost every takeoff. You've got TRT set, it's cold, and flap retract speed is 15 knots under flap placard speed. Meanwhile you are limited to 15 degrees nose high. The instant you start retracting the flaps the airspeed increases regardless of how much pitch you have...so you either pull power even though you are at 300' and near max-gross weight, or you pitch 20 degrees nose high, or accept the fact that the flaps might still be moving just a bit as you hit flap placard speed (within 1-2 knots). Pick your poison. There are many, many instances of people overspeeding the flaps by 40-50 knots, with no associated damage, so to have a heart attack over a perceived 1-2 knots is idiotic.

I saw the same thing over there with hydraulic "leaks". I would see a drop of hydraulic fluid coming from a junction that was supposedly a "no leak" tolerance. I would ask the crew chief, "Would you have wiped that off, had you seen it before me?" 100% of the time the answer was "yes". I took the jet. I am not going to cancel a combat sortie for 1 drop of hydraulic fluid, especially if the gear only has to come UP 1 time, and I can manually lower it.

I may get flamed, and that's fine...but a little common sense goes a long way when writing shit up. Many of the ACs would cancel the sortie for 1 drop of fluid (static, on a 15 degree day). While that is the letter of the law, and well within their right, I submit that it is a fairly short-sightened viewpoint considering the ramifications on the rest of the operation and especially MX after you cancel for 1 drop of fluid.

[afnav]

For the guys that have pulled crew, this is a throwback to the SAC days. Missileers killed their own. Of course, it was easy in the pre-space days when 75% of the career field left or got out after their initial crew tour. It was a rare thing to finish your crew tour without paperwork.

This whole thing reeks of Kehler. He loves to kill people.

People fall asleep on alert, just like they fall asleep in the cockpit. I have woken up in the bunk, peered out, and seen my partner with their eyes closed. Was it a big deal? Probably not, since when the phone rang, alarm 1 went off, or a weapon system or SACDIN print popped out, they took care of it. That was the ILCS days, and I've never been in a REACT capsule, so I have no idea of the difference in capsule sounds or noise. Back then, as long as you were a light sleeper (which fit everyone I knew back then) everything would be okay.

Whoever scheduled a crew in the field for five days should be shot. If manning is that bad, leadership should have stepped up. I don't know all of the details, but on the surface, it sounds pretty ######ed up.

[brickhistory]

For the guys that have pulled crew, this is a throwback to the SAC days. Missileers killed their own. Of course, it was easy in the pre-space days when 75% of the career field left or got out after their initial crew tour. It was a rare thing to finish your crew tour without paperwork.

2

Out of the 12 guys from my IQT class, I was one of the two to not get an Article 15 or LOR during my sentence, er, assignment.