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I did not see this thread before I put my picture up in the Squadron Bar, but I will repost the picture of the missing man formation flown with B-25s to honor these men:

You're right. He should have compared himself to a KC-10 pilot.

True or not, my favorite response so far...

None at all. But I rarely pass up an opportunity to shit on a Nav.... Even if it's in jest. Lighten up, Francis.

Let's see.....fighter assignments were plentiful, not a UAV in sight, I was flying my ass off, the bar was a free for all, and everyone was focused on the potential Communist hoards coming through the Fulda Gap or the NODAKS. Yeah, it is now history but it was a hell of a good time to be wearing nomex and strapping a jet to your back.

What do a Nav and a penguin have in common? Both have wings, neither can fly.

Whats the difference between a navigator and a homosexual? Homosexuals have a future in the USAF,

I assume you meant "pinging." If it was as easy as simple stall recognition, I guess we could just erase this whole thread - nothing more to see here and nothing to learn from. Well, I will try and briefly summarize why we are "pinging," based on what I read in those two open source articles from Time and the AF Times: 1. MC-12 dudes are trained on a plane that is physically and aerodynamically different than the MC-12, and stall training is sub-par, to say the least. 2. Most MC-12 dudes, like these MC-12 dudes, are usually very low time guys in the MC-12 due to the quick turnover in the community thanks to the assignment system, or whatever. 3. A lot of the MC-12 guys have tons of jet time, and little or no turboprop time - kind of like these guys. Stalls in a jet are different from stalls in a prop. 4. The mission of this plane is to essentially be in a constant turn for hours at a time. Sometimes they even have to climb while in such a turn. Some times the pilots even have to add max power, without proper training or experience as to the effects that P-factor can have in the direction that the plane is already turning; usually this is the first time guys are experiencing this type of situation - especially former turbojet guys. 5. There is a trend of several MC-12 incidents related to this deadly mix of factors - including non-fatal ones like where they pulled the plane out of like a 10G dive only a few hundred feet above the deck, causing significant damage to the airframe. 6. Dudes have left for MC-12 deployments and competed their tours without ever having seen any safety reports, or having any discussions on these trends or incidents . No matter whose is at fault for the lack of information dissemination - the individual pilots, the local safety weenies, the Chief of Safety, the USAF Safety Center, nsplayr, Vertigo, or Obama or whoever - it is a major fucking FAIL that this information is not being disseminated efficiently when these incidents should be pretty easily preventable. 7. People are dying and millions of dollars worth of aircraft are being destroyed. So, that's why I am pinging.

And cue the obligatory Gen Mattis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTXzcILPPp8

$69 dollars

Incorrect use of sts, pay up.

What's the difference between loading a truckload of dead babies and a truckload of bowling balls? You can't use a pitchfork with the bowling balls.

4/1690 is pretty low risk. Let's face it, HO only has standards on the 9 side, and they're not real high.

I had the opportunity to attend the ceremony at Wright-Patterson AFB this afternoon. It was a huge privilege to be in the company of such great men.

My experience tells me that part of the problem isn't stall recovery, it's "approach to the stall" recognition. In UPT(at least when I was an IP) the stall series was taught as a flight maneuver. I can't remember how many times I'd see a student later drive himself right up to the edge of a stall while getting ready for something else and not recognise what was happening. They were so focused on doing something else they simply didn't recognise the situation early enough. I recall the day in 1987 or '88 that a Castle tanker did a horrible approach to a touch and go at Beale, stalled in the flare and banged the #1 nacelle on the runway, then did a go-around and a tight left three engine closed at low airspeed and stalled again, planting the airplane in the field across from the tower (seven fatalities as I recall). In both cases the student and IP didn't recognise what was happening while being preoccupied with instructional and EP issues, I suspect, Late stall recoveries didn't solve their problems! Recognition is the key, not recovery!

Yeah but we were just going to talk. Chris Harrison, it seems, is the host of the bachelor/ette. So, it's still a bunch dudes going over to a house to bang some chick. I wasn't too far off.

We've been down this road before on this board. The Marine Corps wants fixed wing air support off of small deck (LHA/LHD) carriers to support the MEU. That's why we have the Harrier, and why we have the B model F-35. (Which is the only one with a full squadron btw) Where the road gets rocky is when you discuss why the MEU needs the F-35B. Let me paraphrase the next few pages of arguments: AF Bubbas: "ROAR, we are AF, we rule the skies with our professionalism, we can do all 6 function of Marine Air for the USMC. They ruined our perfect airplane with their requirements, shit on Marine Tacair, we can do it for them, and we can do it much better than they can. ROAR" USMC Bubbas "ROAR, F you guys, we're the Marine Corps and the basis of the MEU is to be able to do everything by ourselves, we don't need your stinking help. We are the Marine Corps. ROAR" We always seem to forget that each service had it's own (vastly different) requirements, and that it was congress who said that we had to have 1 airplane for them all.

Yeah, he looks black... Good for him, the dumbass voters got what the deserved!

How do you get two navs into a fist fight? Ask them what time it is. Disclaimer: The preceding was an archaic joke that may not be comprehended by the iphone/GPS generation. For additional clarification please ask someone over the age of 45.

From a SERE instructor: A fat nav and a skinny nav jump out of a plane. Which one hits the ground first? Who cares?

Sticking with the Nav theme... Two Navs walk up to a machine that is dispensing pilot wings. The wings cost 0.50, and each Nav has only a quarter. They discuss it, and determine that they're going to each put in a quarter, and they will take turns with the wings. They each put in a quarter, turn the knob (sts), and the wings pop out. The first Nav takes the wings, pins them to his chest, and struts around proudly. After 6-9 minutes, the second Nav jealously says, "All right, that's enough...my turn," to which the winged gent says, "FUCK YOU NAV!"

It comes down to what most of the other guys are saying: That we don't know where the line is, because at any point, that line can change. We're being told that gender, sexuality, and ethnicity don't matter...yet we have special months 'celebrating' (whatever word people want to use) all these differences that supposedly don't matter anymore. I'm being told that things that don't make us a better warfighter don't belong at work, yet we do things all the time that don't make us a better warfighter. And when we mention these silly issues on here that don't make any sense, for the most part we hear 'well, man up, and change things yourself'...if that's the case, why even have commander call and request feedback from the lower levels? It also comes down to the hypocrisy of all these issues. It comes down to the fact that a picture of a woman in a bikini on a work desk is 'glorifying sex, sexually offensive, whatever' but yet af.mil sites having girls in bikinis is totally acceptable, because, well, that's the AF doing it, so it's ok. I'm told that if I say one thing and do something different around the enlisted troops that I am a bad leader (which I would agree), but yet the AF (ran by senior officers) does it all the time...again, what's up with the pictures on the af.mil site? And for the record, I could care less about any pictures as I don't keep any personal pictures at work--never have, never will. But when Big Blue is making such a big deal about something, then they should check their own backyard first. If I would at least have someone with some high rank say to me 'Yea, it's hypocrisy, but that's just the way it is'...then I'll at least somewhat accept that answer because it's an honest one. But when you won't call out the hypocrisy yourself, then I call that being a 'company' man--not sure what else to call it. I'm not saying that you are setting the policies that conflict with one another, but at the same time you don't seem to have an issue with any of it...at least not on here anyway. And when there is a legitimate story that once again highlights the AF's hypocrisy (that I linked), we don't get a long answer from you to why 'this is the way things are right now and the ways things need to be' like you have done with all the sexual offensive examples, but rather we hear crickets. 90% of us on here may just totally 'not get it' when it comes to the way things are actually done and why they are done...but I do know this--perception is reality and it does affect things at the lower level. If you still think I'm completely wrong then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

+1 for Breaking Bad reference

Initial solo in the T-41 at "Casa Grande International" (yeah, way back then...Jan, 1968; Willie's T-41 aux field). Took off, made 9 solo T&G patterns...things of beauty. Turning base for the full stop reached for the flap handle and suddenly recalled I hadn't done that on any of my other patterns. I flew 9 no-flap patterns without noticing and without getting a call from the RSU. IP patted me on the back and said "good job". Nobody had a clue. Needless to say, I sorta forgot to mention it while debriefing.

One of the finest Airmen I've had the privilege of working with. God speed SSgt Stalesky.

We've used the Harriers STOVL ability in Afghanistan early on in the war. There were some airfields that were completely bombed out, only helos and Harriers could use them until the runways were fixed. We also used the capability during the march up to Baghdad. Harriers landing next to helos along the highway at FARPs. Oh, and that whole feint thing in Gulf War 1, where we had the entire 1MarDiv sitting off of the coast of Kuwait in amphibs, giving the Iraqis the idea that the Marines were coming across the beach dividing the Iraqi military and forcing them to deploy on two fronts- giving Gen Schwarzkopf's swinging door strategy even more leverage. However, we regularly use it off of the small deck carriers. Why do we need it? Because the whole purpose of a MEU is to have a completely organic combine arms fighting unit (A Marine Air/Ground Task Force- MAGTF), complete with it's own Ground, Logistics and Air combat elements (Hence the GCE, ACE, and LCE) MEUs (and their expeditionairy strike group) deploy separately from a CSG. The same reason that we Marines need the F-35b is the same reason the Navy and the Air Force need their model. The game is changing, if we have to escort a flight of MV-22s feet dry we need to ensure the way is clear for them so they make it to their destination. With emerging SA threats, and the places we may go I sure as shit don't want to do that in a Hornet, much less a Harrier. With the current fiscal climate in the military we can't afford the luxury of purpose built airplanes anymore. Therefore the F-35 has to be able to do everything that we need a tactical fixed wing airplane in support of the MEU to do. That means OCA to support a TRAP mission, DCA to protect the ESG, deep/stealth strike to take out those new and robust SA nodes, EA to send trons down range so those helos/Ospreys/and other F-35s flying through that SAM WEZ don't get shot down. We fly ISR regularly (ATARS) And of course, what is near and dear to the Marine Aviators heart- CAS. And we have to be able to do it from where the MEU is- onboard a ship that doesn't have catapults or arresting gear. The bottom line is that we do a lot more than what most people think, we bring a lot of capabilities to the fight so that battalion can be there ready to kick the teeth in to anyone to who needs it anywhere in the world. We are self sufficient for as little as 14 days to as many as 30- that gives the AF, Army, and Navy enough time to mobilize and get their shit together to bring in the serious heat. We aren't designed to be a second land Army (though we were/are used as one in Afghanistan). We are the step between the SOF guys and the big Army. If you don't think we need that, or you think that the AF could do better, or think that we don't need the Marine Corps all together, then join the club of naysayers. There are a lot of them - even in congress. The Marine Corps has survived worse times, and has had to defend itself and it's existence many times. Yet we always come out on top? Why? Because while America may not need a Marine Corps, America wants a Marine Corps. Today (November 10th, 2013) marks 238 years of the United States Marine Corps. We celebrated our 101st year of Marine Aviation on August 20th. We aren't going anywhere, we aren't going to give up any capabilities, and we aren't going to relinquish the ACE over to the Air Force.

Bullshit. Your second sentence is baseless and without context. I told you to off for saying am a company man, try to jump higher and implying I am a cheerleader. Don't confuse professional disagreement, challenges and talking to your bosses about serious leadership issues with the anonymous and frequently whiskey influenced garbage dialogue on this blog. I get the broad generalizations about senior leadership, even when they are lacking specific details and context. I'm fine with being insulted by people who know me. You don't. Stick to the argument.

Swanee, he's a Nav.

What's the worst thing about eating bald pu$$y? Putting the diaper back on...