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What you don’t seem to get - and most don’t - Iran is not a military power. It hasn’t been a military power. It’s not an air power. It’s not a naval power. It basically has no way to project real power outside its borders. It’s not doing it now, really, it hasn’t don’t it effectively before. It hasn’t been a military power for many decades. Iran is an economic power. It is a huge oil and LNG supplier. And it now has realized just how much economic power it has via control of a strait that they weren’t really sure they could control - but now they know damn well they can just load up on quadcopters and remote control jet skis the next time there is a cease fire to be adequately able to control the world economy again. You don’t control economic power with military power. You must use diplomacy and influence. Your stated goals cannot happen with the military, because even if we nuke Tehran, a few dudes can throw some mines in an area that demands international cooperation to be a real place to go and entirely negate any military victory. Your desires aren’t achievable in the way you imagine them. And if we agree to a peace plan in which they turn the Strait of Hormuz into another Panama Canal, Iran has the negotiating room of a superpower.

Plenty, including these last two that I specifically said is retarded. But that would mean you’d actually have to have awareness on what you’re talking about and scroll up a few posts. How’s that foot taste?

@Pooter @No One It’s very easy to understand guys, stop being such disingenuous douches.

TACO Tuesday indeed. Blatant market manipulation. Next step is "defeated" Iran blowing up some more expensive equipment. Because this admin's word isn't worth the shit stained single ply trump branded toilet paper it's written on.

How's this one working out for you? You can find plenty more examples, and I tried to stay away from obviously left of center sources. Even Fox sees it- China gaining leverage over US Brookings - Shows US allies turning to China RAND - World leaders flirting with China Gallup - China moves past US in global leadership AP - US Allies resetting relations with China

Because after seeing years of simping and rushing to his defense when we call him out for saying clearly unhinged stuff, you saying “well I don’t like everything he says” and claiming not to be a supporter doesn’t really convince me anymore. The “I’m just a stoic political realist who picked the lesser of two evils” routine doesn’t hold as much water when you charge in to defend him and glaze his every policy move whenever there’s the slightest criticism. As others have said there is actually a 3rd option here: expect better and stop making excuses for the guy

Called it!

Or.... here's a novel concept, stop supporting Trump. Like, if all MAGA world, every single Trumpster, Trumpamaniac, all those suffering Type II TDS, just all stopped supporting raging dickhead Trump, and joined the ranks of Americans that want an honorable Prez, then maybe he goes away. But as long as there are lots of Ratners, Brabus', etc that continue the bullshit of, " but his policies" then we get what we deserve... a fucking raging asshole. @No One , that was quite the summary of Trump Bullshit. Good work. It wont convince the Trumpsters, tho. Type II TDS is like a chem trail/lizard man/5G control/Flat Earth conspiracy theory. Good luck trying to convince someone its all bullshit.

"the Dow is over 50,000"-level deflection

Bringing this back to reality and not just listening to ad hominem about how everyone who doesn’t support Israeli actions is an anti-Semite (CH), any means are justified as long as the ends are better (LR), and how we’re all fat virgins (Bdawg). My prediction: in two hours, the greatest deal ever is announced. Strikes are postponed. Iran denies. Ships still don’t move.

How is it no matter how many times we have this conversation, you are only willing to argue with "his supporters" who aren't on this website? Do I take any of his tweets literally? How many times do I have to say that I don't like the way he talks, before you stop calling it hand waving? Or are your political ideologies so simple as to say: if what I want does not exist, then I choose nothing. It's pretty easy to say, but it was result in catastrophe. I don't care what he says. Not because I don't care what anybody says, but because that's just the politics that I have been delivered. For the millionth time, I don't have the option of choosing between an honest man who gets things done, and a liar who gets things done. The choice I have been given is between a lying politician who acts honest and dignified, and gets nothing done, and a lying politician who acts depraved and unhinged, and gets some things done. It's a shitty choice, which every Trump supporter on this board had said over and over and over and over, but you can't hear it because it's easier to argue with someone who isn't actually here to respond to you. The elusive 30% I suppose. Perhaps the biggest difference here is that you think Trump is causing all of this. I do not. I believe that the corrupting influence of comfort and security have created a society that is more content avoiding tough questions and tough realities. They do not consider the dangers of electing or unserious politicians, because they have never experienced those dangers. Overwhelmingly most people are just bad preparing for things they have not lived. Those people, we the people, elect clowns who promise what can not be delivered. I don't support Trump because I think he's going to save us from the ugly yet inevitable consequences of a society going soft. I support him because he appears to be moving pieces on the board in a way that will increase our odds of winning the epic conflict that always arises when societies break down. He will not be the leader that wins that conflict, nor will any of his acolytes. Because once Americans are reintroduced to fear and danger, they will elect men capable of leading them through it. But by all means, please continue explaining to me and the other supporters here what our views actually are.

lol wtf is this boomer ass fox news argument 😂 Chicago is a city of 9 million people. Since when do we compare soldier death tolls to major metropolitan area crime to figure out if a war is a going well or not? Oh that’s right no one does that.. it’s a stupid deflection tactic because: -the straight isn’t open -the regime isn’t changed -the people aren’t rising up -the missile threat isn’t eliminated -negotiations aren’t progressing -the region isn’t safer Can’t argue the war on its own merits? Pivot to TDS accusations and LiBeRal cItY cRiMe

Whoa whoa buddy. Verifiably false information, must be hard having so much pent up rage. Drink a beer bro, you’re being a Loonie, chill out. #TDS Trump Devotion Syndrome. Sorry, is this how we’re supposed to argue on this forum? Tryin to channel my inner CH/Brabdawg

See this is the classic ‘have your cake and eat it too’ technique that the trump cult of personality constantly lives in and uses to hand wave away anything bad he says or does. Because his supporters DO take his tweets literally.. when they like what he’s saying. When trump says he’s making great progress in negotiations with Iran (a lie) his supporters take that literally. It’s only when he’s advocating for war crimes or something else reprehensible that they’ll go “bro haven’t you learned by now not to take him literally? he’s just a showman.. why are you making such a big deal about a mean tweet.” It’s a convenient little unfalsifiable bubble you guys have created for yourselves. Anything trump says or does you like—taken at face value and evidence of how great he is Anything he says or does that is objectively horrible—“calm down bro don’t be so literal he’s just a showman” So I’ll ask the question for the second time today in slightly different words: is there anything he could say or do that you won’t use that technique to hand wave away? Are there limits to the trump cuck filter or does it apply in every single scenario?

The left will NEVER see a positive thing associated with Trump. Sometime in the early 2030's our Baseops loonies will begin their annual trip to Miami to have a TDS circle jerk in the parking lot of Trump's Presidential library. More Americans died in the liberal mecca of Chicago last weekend than the entire U.S. military since the fight with Iran started...

Ah, the famous ends justify any means. By the way, we’re past just ramblings and posts. Many in 1944 Germany used the exact same “logic” to argue that only Hitler fixed the German economy. Only Hitler restored national pride. Only Hitler stood up to foreign powers. Sure, he lied constantly, said insane things, and did horrible stuff - but every leader does bad things. Don’t waste time listing his failures; all leaders fail. If you don’t like him, you’ll focus on his rhetoric. But for people getting what they want, his misgivings are just the cost of politics. You probably won’t get the metaphors here. That’s okay, you’re part of the 30%. It’s not about Trump being Hitler. It’s about your logic train falling apart and your statements being extremely fallible.

If Iran submits, Trump is remembered as one of the strongest, most courageous leaders in history. If Iran refuses to submit, Warhawks may find the use of a tactical or bunker busting nuke justifiable. A message to the rest of the world is sent, and Trump is remembered as one of the strongest, most courageous leaders in history. A net positive outcome either way.

From The Atlantic back in September of 2016: "It’s a familiar split. When he makes claims like this, the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally." Almost 10 years later and you guys haven't figured it out. Would I prefer a president who says what they mean and speaks with poise and strength, instead of lobbing rhetorical bombs in every direction to keep the news cycle in a constant state of catastrophe and, more importantly, to keep him front and center of every single camera? Sure. But I react to the world I'm in, not the world I desire. His supporters ignore his insane rambling and unhinged posting because he delivers where others have not. Please don't waste our time with the many examples of Trump failing to deliver. That's every president ever, and humans don't care about every issue. Only one president treated illegal immigration as illegal. Only one president has scraped the trans insanity out of the government ranks. Only one president has given the 2A community a supreme court that actually believes in the 2A. Only one president has told our "allies" to put up or fuck off. On and on. You don't like those things. That's fine. If you don't like what he's doing, you'll definitely latch on to what he's saying as more evidence of his whatevertheaccusationoftheday is. But to the Americans who are finally getting their policy priorities met, his obvious lies and bluffs are just the cost of politics. That doesn't mean Iran is going to end well, but I'm not going to suddenly start caring about his rhetoric now. I want a non-nuclear Iran. I want the regime that routinely kills Americans and Israelis to die, or live in perpetual fear of dying. I want the Chinese to have as few allies as possible for when we end up in a war with them. I want Europe scared of their self-imposed weakness and South America stable and productive. I would *love* to get those things from a president that spoke like Obama and appreciated our history like Bush Sr. But I can't. I'm not going to pretend that his favorable policy results make him a good man. I think Trump is a piece of shit. But I'm also not going to pretend like he's the first piece of shit in Washington. Or the first liar. Or the first politician to take classified information home. Or cheat on his wife. Or enrich his family. I hate those things. But I also hate mosquitoes, yet neither one is going away anytime soon. And personally I kind of like having politicians look as ugly on the outside as they act behind closed doors.

An insightful rebuttal as always, brabus. Should I write the exact same thing to you every time you rant about the lunacy of the left? Or does the “misery and rage” label only apply to those who don’t love your Dear Leader? Here’s the thing. I’m not miserable and I’m not full of rage. I am angered, dismayed, and saddened to watch Trump and his cabinet of sell-outs and yes-men systematically dismantle our country’s reputation and honor. To watch them build and sustain this bizarre cult of personality, in which literally nothing is too crazy, too shameful, or too inexcusable, ….and in which you appear to have bought into, hook line and sinker. Your response above is a prime example. These tweets are only the latest in a 10+ year history that includes calls to terminate the constitution, images of American cities in flames/ruins, lies about rigged elections, and labeling half the country as “the enemy within.” Now he says he’s going to wipe out an entire civilization and he ushers in Easter with threats of Hell and praise to Allah. …..and your response is to tell me I’m a miserable person and to “relax and have a beer.” So it’s this. The tribalism, the cult following. The abandonment of core principles. The spinelessness. The sane-washing and the constant effort to defend the indefensible. The sad and predictable minimizing, downplaying, and redirection that you do. This is new. This mindset and this behavior is alarming, especially to see it so widespread. You guys think it’s all about Trump and “TDS.” It’s not. It’s not him, it’s the effect on people and society that’s he’s caused. Trump will eventually be gone, but the rest of us will have to live in the country and culture and world that he’s irreparably damaged.

Brotha, I’m thinking after this week if we don’t hear anything, might be time to hang em up. (Also a hopeful alternate on standby)

Crude has doubled since this kicked off, so whoever made those bets did. And whoever stole a literal boatload of Venezuelan oil and stashed it in their own personal "executive" slush fund.

See you might think this is a damning sequence of incoherence and impulsiveness from our president that sums up the complete lack of strategy and maturity they’re approaching this with, but actually you just have TDS and don’t understand the 15-D chess going on in the background.

Who’s watching the insider trading based on this rhetoric?

The plan straight from the horses mouth: Mar 3: "We won the war." Mar 7: "We defeated Iran." Mar 8: "We must attack Iran." Mar 9: "The war is ending almost completely, and very beautifully." Mar 11: “You never like to say too ⁠early you won. We won. In the first hour it was over.” Mar 12: "We did win, but we haven't won completely yet." Mar 13: "We won the war." Mar 14: "Please help us." Mar 15: "If you don't help us, I will certainly remember it." Mar 16: "Actually, we don't need any help at all." Mar 16: "I was just testing to see who's listening to me." Mar 16: "If NATO doesn't help, they will suffer something very bad." Mar 17: "We neither need nor want NATO's help." Mar 17: "I don't need Congressional approval to withdraw from NATO." Mar 18: "Our allies must cooperate in reopening the Strait of Hormuz." Mar 19: "US allies need to get a grip - step up and help open the Strait of Hormuz." Mar 20: "NATO are cowards." Mar 21: "The Strait of Hormuz must be protected by the countries that use it. We don't use it, we don't need to open it." Mar 22: "This is the last time. I will give Iran 48 hours. Open the strait" Mar 22: "Iran is Dead" Mar 23: "We had very good and productive talks with Iran." Mar 24: "We’re making progress." Mar 24: "[Iran] gave us a present and the ⁠present arrived today, and it was a very big present, worth a tremendous amount of money." Mar 25: “They gave us a present and the present arrived today. And it was a very big present worth a tremendous amount of money. I’m not going to tell you what that present is, but it was a very significant prize.” Mar 26: "Make a deal, or we’ll just keep blowing them away." Mar 27: "We don’t have to be there for NATO." Mar 28: No major quote Mar 29: Claimed talks were progressing Mar 30: "Open the Strait of Hormuz immediately, or face devastating consequences." Mar 31: Claimed a deal was "very close" and that Iran would "do the right thing" Apr 1: "We’ll see what happens very soon." Apr 2: Repeated that a deal was likely, while warning of continued strikes if not Apr 3: "Something big is going to happen." Apr 4: Said Iran must comply "immediately" or face further consequences. Apr 5: "Open the in' Strait, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in Hell - JUST WATCH! Praise be to Allah." Apr 6: "The entire country can be taken out in one night, and that night might be tomorrow night." Apr 6: "They made a proposal, and it's a significant proposal. It's a significant step. It's not good enough...they have to do certain things. They know that, they've been negotiating I think in good faith." Apr 7: "A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. I don’t want that ‌to ⁠happen, but it probably will." April 7: Iran cuts all diplomatic channels.

Is the plan in the room with us right now? Describe it to me. How does “a whole civilization will die tonight” fit into that plan? How is that not escalatory? How is that rhetoric in line with how this war was originally sold? edit, maybe a better question to ask: is there any public statement trump could make that you would admit is reckless, escalatory, or strategically damaging?