Jump to content
Baseops Forums
tac airlifter

The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

Recommended Posts

Slight quibble, but if poverty is a lack of money than giving people money would certainly help! I'm looking forward to a technocratic future where strong-yet-benevolent AI has taken over large swaths of the labor required to sustain human civilization and in turn people are supported by a UBI that frees them up for more creative and exploratory pursuits.

Like the movie Wall-E?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
61149836_ScreenShot2020-06-07at5_36_22PM.thumb.png.d3c018dccb3f7c518868893c70ef8b4d.png
While you are technically correct, an increase of 1.6% over almost 50 years is...not great. Neither is a 6.1% increase. As you can see from the lines, the trend is divergence of the top 10% away from everyone else. (source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45090.pdf)
Further down in that chart, real wages for men in the bottom 10% in particular have fallen 13.3%, and that's a huge source of despair and rage among the poorest men of all races in our country. The jobs that have gone away and are never coming back were the ones that allowed our fathers and grandfathers to scrap by and make it with hard work and a little bit of luck; that's harder than ever today for those on the very bottom, whether you're in rural WV or urban NYC or anywhere in between.

What causes that? Is feminism a factor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Truth is so different for people.  I turn on one network to watch coverage of the George Floyd riots, and the next channel down has coverage of the George Floyd protests.  And they are covering the same thing.  Everyone seems to be in violent agreement that the dude was murdered by the cop, and should be prosecuted.  They arrested the cop and charged him.  Now what?  Restore law and order?  Remove the police and let communities fend for themselves?   I can't seem figure out what the point is now.
 

True. To an extent. But there shouldn’t be individual truths. There is only the truth.

I agree. Can’t figure out why we are going so far out on the race limb. It doesn’t make sense.
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Guardian said:


True. To an extent. But there shouldn’t be individual truths. There is only the truth.

I agree. Can’t figure out why we are going so far out on the race limb. It doesn’t make sense.

It doesn't make sense because the upheavel is not entirely about race. This race issue is a part of the larger generational cycle taking place. We've seen an abrupt increase in mass civil unrest around the globe the last few years. People are having an impulse to upend the world, and searching for an explanation, or excuse. Race happens to be it at the moment.

Check out the theory of the "4th Turning", or the "Crisis Generation"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Guardian said:


What causes that? Is feminism a factor?

If we could agree on the causes and the solutions it would be an easy problem to solve! But personally, no, I don't think income inequality is caused by the idea that people of different genders should be treated equally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Guardian said:


Like the movie Wall-E?

Nah thinking more like the Thunderhead from the Scythe series. Even The Federation in Star Trek would be great. Lots of examples of post-scarcity societies in sci-fi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Guardian said:


What causes that? Is feminism a factor?

Are you asking if nearly doubling the supply of labor reduces its value?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh. Not exactly. He said something to the tune of men’s earnings going down. And I was just curious if a (not the) contributing factor could be more women in the work force.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

A single CPI based estimation of real wage growth or decline is flawed.  Everything is not inflating at the same rate.  

I also don't think income inequality is a very good measure of anything by itself.  It might be a good indicator to look deeper, but by itself doesn't tell you much.  It's like chasing metrics. 

An increase in minimum wage also isn't going to do much (if the underlying problem is a loss of manufacturing jobs) other than help drive inflation.  Service industry jobs are already low margin sectors of the economy (the restaurant industry as an example). 

Thought this was interesting, I obviously can't vouch for accuracy, but it at least seems to match my own anecdotal experience (mainly that the fun stuff is far cheaper now).  My main thoughts:

-"Higher education" has become a scam box-check requirement for no good reason. 

- What is actually driving up the cost of healthcare?  Nationalized healthcare seems like a great way to keep paying ever increasing costs without solving the root cause.

price-changes-in-usa-in-past-20-years-22

 

 

Maybe Andrew Yang is right and we'll all be served by robots soon, better get on some nuclear power plants to power it all, Star Trek here we come......

Edited by busdriver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to our POW survival training, is the news babe blinking a code for help?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Back to our POW survival training, is the news babe blinking a code for help?

I would be laughing at this shit if they weren’t so serious about it. 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, nsplayr said:

If we could agree on the causes and the solutions it would be an easy problem to solve! But personally, no, I don't think income inequality is caused by the idea that people of different genders should be treated equally.

Strawman. Weak.

 

There is lots of interesting conversation about the after effects of the feminist revolution. That revolution (first and second wave) was necessary and good, but as usual, no one took the time to look ahead.

 

The introduction of women into the workforce at all levels, not just a few select professions, is having profound impacts on social norms far beyond workplace humor and who watches the kids. Again, worth it, but many are pretending like those changes are either fabricated or not nearly as impactful. 

 

Specifically to the topic of incoming quality, female professionals are a driving factor in the separation between successful families and unsuccessful families. There's a fantastic podcast on Sam Harris discussing this, and it's something that I've noticed over the past few years. It goes something like this (very short version):

 

Modern income inequality has nothing to do with the historical carries, that is to say family wealth. Now that women are an active force in the workplace, their performance in the business world is something that is now measured, both societally and by themselves. However unlike men, women (statistically) prefer a mate who exceeds their own abilities. There's a lot of debate as to why this is, or if we even have a firm understanding of the cause, but statistically it remains. So that leaves us now with an entirely different dating dynamic, and women who might have partnered with men of a lower income or professional level are now aiming higher (than their new, elevated position in the world). This creates a dynamic where intelligent, driven men are partnering with intelligent, driven women. What do you think the odds are that their children will have the best schools the best resources the best tutoring and overall the best opportunities? This dynamic was made possible by the second order effects of the feminist revolution.

 

Again, for those perpetually seeking something to get upset about, I'm not arguing that the feminist movement was a mistake, but as with all movements the after effects can be just as or even more devastating than the prior condition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're describing the water bro. We know the dynamics of female labor participation post 1970. We've also known about Hypergamy in Western women behavior post- labor market flooding for ages. The subtext is whether you want to pursue the reversal of the trend by coercive forces. That's what gets people defensive, high-achievement women of course included. Stop feigning neutrality, say what you really think. Are you on the "Johnny get my belt! and whip her back to the kitchen" crowd or not? 😄 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

You're describing the water bro. We know the dynamics of female labor participation post 1970. We've also known about Hypergamy in Western women behavior post- labor market flooding for ages. The subtext is whether you want to pursue the reversal of the trend by coercive forces. That's what gets people defensive, high-achievement women of course included. Stop feigning neutrality, say what you really think. Are you on the "Johnny get my belt! and whip her back to the kitchen" crowd or not? 😄 

I don’t know what this means, but I am sure it should be in the next PME curriculum rollout.

😂🍺

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Back to our POW survival training, is the news babe blinking a code for help?

Hope they go through with it.  Sorry regular folks in Minneapolis, but I want to get my popcorn and watch your city self-destruct.  We can then all learn from this idiocy.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Minneapolis - a crazy experiment, Wild West style.

With no police, those that can afford it will hire private police, like gated communities and corporations.  Lots will move away, tanking its local real estate and economy.  Crime will go unchecked.  Shootings will increase as folks defend themselves.  Crime lords will come out and take over.  Eventually, after the mayor learns his lesson, the Gov will have to send in the Guard.  Companies located there will decide they must leave to survive.  Here's top the top 50 employers of MN in the MSP area.  If I were a CEO of Target, Best Buy, Ameriprise, Wells Fargo, hell, even the USPS (they should band together), they should tell the mayor if the police go, they go, and take tens of thousands of jobs with them. 

1

Mayo Clinic

Rochester

26,308

2

3M Co

St Paul

12,000

4

Thomson Reuters Legal Sltns

St Paul

6,700

5

Mayo Clinic Hosp St Mary's

Rochester

5,167

6

Ameriprise Financial Inc

Minneapolis

5,065

7

Andersen Corp

Bayport

5,000

8

Best Buy Co Inc

Minneapolis

5,000

9

Target Corp

Minneapolis

5,000

10

Hennepin County Med Ctr Red

Minneapolis

4,900

11

IBM

Rochester

4,800

12

Park Nicollet Methodist Hosp

St Louis Park

4,650

13

Abbott Northwestern Hospital

Minneapolis

4,573

14

Carlson Inc

Minnetonka

4,500

15

SMSC Gaming Enterprise

Prior Lake

4,500

16

North Memorial Health Care

Robbinsdale

4,300

17

Health Partners

Minneapolis

4,000

18

Little Six Casino

Prior Lake

4,000

19

M Health Fairview Clinic

Minneapolis

4,000

20

US Post Office

Minneapolis

4,000

24

SMSC Gaming Enterprise

Prior Lake

3,750

25

Wells Fargo Home Mortgage

Minneapolis

3,750

26

Children's Minnesota

Minneapolis

3,710

27

Blue Cross & Blue Shield of MN

St Paul

3,500

28

Boston Scientific Corp

St Paul

3,500

29

Seagate Technology

Bloomington

3,500

30

St Paul Board of Education

St Paul

3,401

31

Mayo Clinic Hosp-Mthdst Campus

Rochester

3,304

32

General Mills Inc

Minneapolis

3,100

35

Fairview Health Svc

Minneapolis

3,000

36

Medtronic Inc

Minneapolis

3,000

37

Prudential Financial

Minneapolis

3,000

38

Stanke Supply Co

St Paul

3,000

39

Travlers Insurance

St Paul

3,000

40

U.S. Bank Branch

St Paul

3,000

41

Regions Hospital

St Paul

2,918

42

Star Tribune Media Co LLC

Minneapolis

2,814

43

M Health Fairview Univ-Mn Med

Minneapolis

2,788

44

CHS Inc

Inver Grove Hts

2,500

45

Marsden Bldg Maintenance LLC

St Paul

2,500

46

Wells Fargo East Corporate

Minneapolis

2,500

47

United Hospital

St Paul

2,265

48

Human Services Dept

St Paul

2,200

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, disgruntledemployee said:

Minneapolis - a crazy experiment, Wild West style.

With no police, those that can afford it will hire private police, like gated communities and corporations.  Lots will move away, tanking its local real estate and economy.  Crime will go unchecked.  Shootings will increase as folks defend themselves.  Crime lords will come out and take over.  Eventually, after the mayor learns his lesson, the Gov will have to send in the Guard.  Companies located there will decide they must leave to survive.  Here's top the top 50 employers of MN in the MSP area.  If I were a CEO of Target, Best Buy, Ameriprise, Wells Fargo, hell, even the USPS (they should band together), they should tell the mayor if the police go, they go, and take tens of thousands of jobs with them. 

1

 

Mayo Clinic

 

Rochester

 

26,308

 

2

 

3M Co

 

St Paul

 

12,000

 

4

 

Thomson Reuters Legal Sltns

 

St Paul

 

6,700

 

5

 

Mayo Clinic Hosp St Mary's

 

Rochester

 

5,167

 

6

 

Ameriprise Financial Inc

 

Minneapolis

 

5,065

 

7

 

Andersen Corp

 

Bayport

 

5,000

 

8

 

Best Buy Co Inc

 

Minneapolis

 

5,000

 

9

 

Target Corp

 

Minneapolis

 

5,000

 

10

 

Hennepin County Med Ctr Red

 

Minneapolis

 

4,900

 

11

 

IBM

 

Rochester

 

4,800

 

12

 

Park Nicollet Methodist Hosp

 

St Louis Park

 

4,650

 

13

 

Abbott Northwestern Hospital

 

Minneapolis

 

4,573

 

14

 

Carlson Inc

 

Minnetonka

 

4,500

 

15

 

SMSC Gaming Enterprise

 

Prior Lake

 

4,500

 

16

 

North Memorial Health Care

 

Robbinsdale

 

4,300

 

17

 

Health Partners

 

Minneapolis

 

4,000

 

18

 

Little Six Casino

 

Prior Lake

 

4,000

 

19

 

M Health Fairview Clinic

 

Minneapolis

 

4,000

 

20

 

US Post Office

 

Minneapolis

 

4,000

 

24

 

SMSC Gaming Enterprise

 

Prior Lake

 

3,750

 

25

 

Wells Fargo Home Mortgage

 

Minneapolis

 

3,750

 

26

 

Children's Minnesota

 

Minneapolis

 

3,710

 

27

 

Blue Cross & Blue Shield of MN

 

St Paul

 

3,500

 

28

 

Boston Scientific Corp

 

St Paul

 

3,500

 

29

 

Seagate Technology

 

Bloomington

 

3,500

 

30

 

St Paul Board of Education

 

St Paul

 

3,401

 

31

 

Mayo Clinic Hosp-Mthdst Campus

 

Rochester

 

3,304

 

32

 

General Mills Inc

 

Minneapolis

 

3,100

 

35

 

Fairview Health Svc

 

Minneapolis

 

3,000

 

36

 

Medtronic Inc

 

Minneapolis

 

3,000

 

37

 

Prudential Financial

 

Minneapolis

 

3,000

 

38

 

Stanke Supply Co

 

St Paul

 

3,000

 

39

 

Travlers Insurance

 

St Paul

 

3,000

 

40

 

U.S. Bank Branch

 

St Paul

 

3,000

 

41

 

Regions Hospital

 

St Paul

 

2,918

 

42

 

Star Tribune Media Co LLC

 

Minneapolis

 

2,814

 

43

 

M Health Fairview Univ-Mn Med

 

Minneapolis

 

2,788

 

44

 

CHS Inc

 

Inver Grove Hts

 

2,500

 

45

 

Marsden Bldg Maintenance LLC

 

St Paul

 

2,500

 

46

 

Wells Fargo East Corporate

 

Minneapolis

 

2,500

 

47

 

United Hospital

 

St Paul

 

2,265

 

48

 

Human Services Dept

 

St Paul

 

2,200

 

It's a dumb idea but it won't be anarchy. The sheriff and staties will take jurisdiction of the city and will handle the most severe stuff. It won't be ideal but it will hardly be anarchy. Sovereign citizens might all move to Minneapolis though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, frog said:

I don’t know what this means, but I am sure it should be in the next PME curriculum rollout.

😂🍺

Dude I'm in the middle of that garbage right now. I question my decision to continue with every module, and now they're subcontracting Arizona State Univ to handle the thing, so only Lord knows what the migration will do. I'm taking screenshots of my transcripts as we speak. If they short me credit, I'm quitting. Figured Iron Major suits my career aspirations well anyways lol. Cheers!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

You're describing the water bro. We know the dynamics of female labor participation post 1970. We've also known about Hypergamy in Western women behavior post- labor market flooding for ages. The subtext is whether you want to pursue the reversal of the trend by coercive forces. That's what gets people defensive, high-achievement women of course included. Stop feigning neutrality, say what you really think. Are you on the "Johnny get my belt! and whip her back to the kitchen" crowd or not? 😄 

Nonsense. "We" don't know shit. I have virtually no progressive friends who are aware of even the simplest facts surrounding their platform, and hypergamy is blasphemy. Meanwhile the right denies income inequality as a threat because the left mischaracterizes it as "income" inequality when really we may be facing a completely unintentional eugenics program. Both sides have their heads firmly in the sand. Do not mistake your own awareness as common. That aside.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is. The system is *great* for me. My partner is a doctor, and I'm a pilot. We will make a fortune and our children will have amazing opportunity, as long as they don't lose the genetic lottery. To me it's just one more example of a narrowly-focused goal that overwhelmingly disregards human nature. Which one needs to be fixed first? Urbanization? Multiculturalism? Equality of outcome for the genders? Affirmative action?

 

I think we would be just as stupid to assume we can do something to fix all of the problems these programs have caused with another narrowly focused policy. We probably need a broader return to the concept of human nature. This is not a new concept considering the founders crafted our entire system around it. I don't think most people actually want what the modern world is providing in many cases. Suicide rates in the developed world support the idea. Maybe we stop telling people what they *should* want from a young age.

 

Viciously protect and provide opportunities for all kids. Remove any and all government policies or programs that discourage two-parent homes. Stop incentivizing behavior unless the behavior limits someone else's rights and freedom. Overall, stop thinking that you can reengineer the human race quicker than over the course of several generations.

 

Beyond that, 🤷‍♂️. Hopefully a broader conversation on the above rather than sloganeering and sign waving will result in some specific answers.

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Which one needs to be fixed first? Urbanization? Multiculturalism? Equality of outcome for the genders? Affirmative action?

Are you saying all of these are problems?

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

We probably need a broader return to the concept of human nature. This is not a new concept considering the founders crafted our entire system around it.

As defined by...whom exactly?

As great as our Constitution is and many of our founders were, many also found it to be within the concept of human nature that the black race was rightly subjugated to the needs of the white race. Just saying that calling something "human nature" does not make it right and who gets to decide what is "human nature" and what is an aberration makes all the difference.

I'll ask you: is same-sex attraction "human nature?" Is interracial marriage?

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Stop incentivizing behavior unless the behavior limits someone else's rights and freedom.

The idea that the government, or businesses, or other humans are getting out of the "incentivizing other's behavior" game anytime soon is foolish and irrelevant; it's not going to happen.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Are you saying all of these are problems?

As defined by...whom exactly?

As great as our Constitution is and many of our founders were, many also found it to be within the concept of human nature that the black race was rightly subjugated to the needs of the white race. Just saying that calling something "human nature" does not make it right and who gets to decide what is "human nature" and what is an aberration makes all the difference.

I'll ask you: is same-sex attraction "human nature?" Is interracial marriage?

The idea that the government, or businesses, or other humans are getting out of the "incentivizing other's behavior" game anytime soon is foolish and irrelevant; it's not going to happen.

1. Absolutely. Urbanization has created high densities of poor (mostly minority) citizens living in the most expensive places in America to live, without the earning capacity to get out. Meanwhile the upper middle class can afford what most people want (human nature) for their families. A house for their kids, a yard to play in, a pool to swim in. So they move out to some suburban paradise (with their tax dollars) and commute to work while the very people meant to benefit from urbanization have to send their kids to terrible schools and rely on ever decaying infrastructure and public services. Equality of outcome for the genders is an obvious one, look no further than the Nordic countries where the world's most gender-equal society has greater occupational disparity between the genders. Turns out women statistically want be be nurses instead of engineers, veterinarians instead of pilots, and teachers instead of welders (human nature). Affirmative action put minority young adults into universities they weren't prepared for, resulting in a higher dropout rate. That doesn't mean you abandon the cause. It means you have to be very, very careful with the policy you develop and willing to abandon it when the results aren't what you hoped for (or after you've succeeded even).

 

2. We can go with "science" if that suits you. Considering that there is ample research into human nature based on scientifically validated research and data, outside of political theater we actually have a pretty developed sense of how humans work. Now, the wide body of sociology writing that has no cited material, no supporting data, and no basis in reality? That we can and should ignore. 

 

3. Many of the founders were deeply conflicted with the inclusion of slavery. Even the ones who owned slaves did not do so under the guise of human nature. Racism *is* human nature, but it's human nature that impacts the ability of others to be free. Eliminating the manifestations of racism that oppress minorities is a worthy and noble goal, and one that has been largely accomplished in the US. Eliminating racism itself is a much bigger endeavor, and will take generations. Pushing the timeline too hard will inflame the issue and delay eventual progress. 

 

4. Same-sex attraction is an abnormality of evolution, but still a part human nature. One of many. It exists in nature outside of humans, and has existed in humans for as long as we have kept track. More importantly, human nature or not, it does not impact the lives of others, so the government should stay out of it.  Interracial marriage isn't even an abnormality, it's a feature.

 

5. It's hardly foolish and it's supremely relevant. It may be impossible to put the toothpaste back in the tube on existing policy, but a whole lot of dangerous new policy ideas are floating around, and the Democrat party is competing with themselves as to who can endorse the most extreme options. We can and should seek to prevent further damage. 

Edited by Lord Ratner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Back to our POW survival training, is the news babe blinking a code for help?

Abolish laws and everyone in the city is instantly innocent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

1. Absolutely.

Without getting into it too much, I live in the urban core of a mid-sized city (urbanization), my kids go to a racially and demographically-representative public school (multiculturalism), and my wife is paid the same as any other person doing her job regardless of gender (general equality). Life is good! If you'd like to live differently feel free.

On your other points, we seem to come from a place with quite different values and assumptions about life and I'm not sure a detailed explanation of where I'm coming from is going to move the needle for you. I guess we can try to find some common understanding elsewhere.

One quick, genuine question: why have folks on the right started using the phrase, "the Democrat Party?" From what I can tell it started with Pres. Trump, but IDK...it's just not correct and I'm not sure if it's just a subtle way to own the libs or what. Just curious!

Edited by nsplayr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Without getting into it too much, I live in the urban core of a mid-sized city (urbanization), my kids go to a racially and demographically-representative public school (multiculturalism), and my wife is paid the same as any other person doing her job regardless of gender (general equality). Life is good! If you'd like to live differently feel free.

On your other points, we seem to come from a place with quite different values and assumptions about life and I'm not sure a detailed explanation of where I'm coming from is going to move the needle for you. I guess we can try to find some common understanding elsewhere.

One quick, genuine question: why have folks on the right started using the phrase, "the Democrat Party?" From what I can tell it started with Pres. Trump, but IDK...it's just not correct and I'm not sure if it's just a subtle way to own the libs or what. Just curious!

I'm not sure. I like that it makes a distinction between Democratic and democratic, but if there's a broader movement behind it I've been unwittingly conscripted.

 

Your definition of multiculturalism is what I would call ethnic diversity. Very different things. And using anecdote to make a point isn't particularly useful. Of course *you* like raising a family in an urban center. You have the resources to choose, and to live in a manner that is better than how the lower class lives. If you didn't like it you would leave, like so many do. But statistically you are in the minority, and that matters for policy decisions. 

 

But I agree, there's not much of a point. You have the tendency to mischaracterize opposing views by their most cartoonish representation then act enlightened that you don't agree with what no one said. Like I said, strawman.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...