Academy informant program

[Fuzz]

Do we seriously believe USAFA grads are better officers/pilots/queep-masters by a factor of six?

You should ask the next one you meet, I'm sure they'll tell you.

[SurelySerious]

My issue with the place is cost vs value. Getting a USAFA LT is about 6 times more expensive than a ROTC grad. Do we seriously believe USAFA grads are better officers/pilots/queep-masters by a factor of six? If not, then shut the place down.

Paying tuition for thousands of college kids and running dets across the country also costs too much money. If you're arguing money, then your argument better be OTS only.

ROTC costs 6-9 times more than OTS. Shut it down.

[hindsight2020]

FWIW not every ROTC kid is on a scholarship.

[PushItUp]

So what exactly is your argument? We should keep the academies because the produce a lot of Rhodes scholars? Would those students not be able to achieve that at some other university? Plus, we should keep the academies so the CEO of some PRIVATE company can hire ring knockers? Yep, sounds like a valid reason to keep them around. So tell me again how the service academies increase our warfighter capability?

Somone is bitter.

[TarHeelPilot]

I don't give a ###### how many Rhodes Scholars USAFA produces…. I'd rather have military leaders. How many 4 star generals have been Rhodes Scholars? I'd rather not have Stephen Hawking as my MAJCOM/CC.

Edited December 5, 2013 by TarHeelPilot

[Thunder 15]

As a Junior at USAFA, I'd like to give my perspective.

I do not consider Academy graduates to be superior to ROTC/OTS counterparts nor do many of my classmates have that opinion.

I came to USAFA for intrinsic reasons and will not reference my commissioning source when I graduate because performance on operational duty is what matters.

Many people are saying the Academy "sucks" and this cynicism exists with cadets who merely try to skid by.

We have the chance to party it up at local colleges such as Boulder, CSU, or DU on the weekends, but we can't drink in our dorms. We do have a bar which many cadets occupy until 2300.

If you're a high performer, there are some pretty cool opportunities. I was able to get over 30 glider sorties and planning to head to the aeroclub every other day next semester. I'm scheduled for Basic Parachuting senior year. Last summer I did language immersion training for three weeks and spent another three weeks at an Air Force base touring the various career fields. This upcoming summer, I will be conducting research at an intelligence agency. Next fall semester, I will be on a semester abroad to a civilian university, yet I will still commission in May 2015 with the AFSC that I want. We also have a pre-IFS course that cadets can take for free along with everything else. All that military stuff we do is a small price to pay for what we have here.

I don't know if there is a quality difference between the commissioning sources or if the Academy is worth it, but I know it has pretty neat perks for its students.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Thunder 15

[Hacker]

@Thunder 15 is obviously an informant.

[Gravedigger]

As a Junior at USAFA, I'd like to give my perspective.

I don't know if there is a quality difference between the commissioning sources or if the Academy is worth it, but I know it has pretty neat perks for its students.

That's the right perspective. You'll do just fine.

[joe1234]

I want to address what some people say about the non-pilots at USAFA. To be honest, I’m not sure why people went through that bullshit for a degree they could have gotten at a civilian university. However, the Air Force was lucky to get people such as the president of US Air and other graduates (some who make seven figures and look at airline pay as lunch money) for the five years they served. The facts are there just are not enough slots at the ROTC dets at the top 14 schools to accommodate all these guys/gals if the Air Force Academy did not exist. There are some people who are attracted to a high quality education and the military gets tremendous value out of their human capital.

Dude, nobody cares about the USAir CEO. Every school has super successful and rich people. Nevermind that what someone does after the academy is completely irrelevant with regard to the value that the Air Force extracts from them while actually in the service.

The academy is a decent undergrad institution, but the fact that there's no grad school means that you can't even compare it with a major university. I mean, USAFA is duking it out with Holy Cross, Oberlin, and Scripps College to round out the top 25 of "schools I've only heard of when I fill out a March Madness bracket". USAFA is not on the level of an Ivy. It just isn't, man. At best, it's like UC Santa Barbara. Except UCSB does research. USAFA...trains narcs, I guess.

The simple fact is that either the "diversity" of officer commissioning sources is worth the absolutely insane price per LT we pay for the academy, or things like flying hours, heavy tankers and CAS jets are worth more. I think the jets are worth more because the only thing we get from this current wonderful commissioning setup is the current crop of leadership that is so incessantly bitched about on this forum.

[Fast_N_Low135]

Somone is bitter.

Ha, far from it, although I might be retarded because I did go to a small state school. All I did was point out a shitty irrelevant argument to keep the Academies. Show me where I said we should get actually get rid of them or that I'm but hurt that I didn't get accepted? (Hard to get accepted when you don't apply)

BTW, I'm a guard(s) baby, let me know who's the bitter one once you've been on AD for 6-9 years.

Cheers and congrats on your Rhodes Scholars, I'm real impressed!

[sputnik]

The academy is a decent undergrad institution, but the fact that there's no grad school means that you can't even compare it with a major university. I mean, USAFA is duking it out with Holy Cross, Oberlin, and Scripps College to round out the top 25 of "schools I've only heard of when I fill out a March Madness bracket". USAFA is not on the level of an Ivy. It just isn't, man. At best, it's like UC Santa Barbara. Except UCSB does research. USAFA...trains narcs, I guess.

If you've never heard of Holy Cross or Oberlin outside of basketball you know f all about higher education in America.

I and every cadet and graduate fervently wish it were like UCSB--pretty decent engineering programs by the way. Your definition of what makes a good school is interesting, Rose-Hulman is roundly considered one of the best engineering schools in the country, but fails to meet your standards because their grad school is miniscule--focus is on undergrad education, not research. You do realize schools without large research programs tend to focus on teaching, right? Having a grad school has nothing to do with quality of undergraduate education, a grad school (good or bad) usually means undergrad courses are taught by grad students rather than, I don't know, teachers.

No idea if the Academy produces better officers, but I've never seen any evidence of it. As many others have already stated, I've seen awesome and horrible officers from all commissioning sources. But academically it is outstanding. Your assessment flies in the face of accreditation boards and school rankings, including those more rigorous that US News.

Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about...but don't let that stop you.

Edited December 5, 2013 by sputnik

[Jaded]

Academically, the Academy is outstanding? Outstanding at what? Preparing its students for what?

Are Academy students doing groundbreaking research? Do they go on to develop new technologies at companies like Google/IBM/Microsoft? Do they go on to excel at Goldman Sachs at a higher rate than other colleges? Are they accepted into graduate schools at higher rates?

What exactly does the Academy do academic wise that is so outstanding? The vast majority of its graduates go on to be officers in the military, in which all of that "outstanding" academic preparation is completely unused.

Justify it if it makes you feel better, but the USAFA is not the nationally recognized institution that you cadets seem to think it is.

[Right Seat Driver]

[nsplayr]

College rankings are often in large part based on the quality of their incoming classes, i.e. average SAT scores, rank in their high school classes, etc.

It seems like the questions people are asking are about outcomes, i.e. do students excel after going to the Academy and specifically did they succeed because of their experience going there?

I'd say the answer to that second questions is hard to say and uniquely so for graduates of military academies since their graduates go on to serve as officers in the military for at least 5 years. So no, they're not likely doing ground-breaking research, founding fortune 500 companies, etc. right out of the academy because they're busy being CGOs. And we've all pretty much agreed that in terms of in-service performance academy grads are not materially better than officers from ROTC or OTS.

So really I think you can have it both ways. The academy doesn't have to be a crappy school to say it's not worth having.

You can argue that the academy is an excellent academic institution because they are very selective and only admit students with excellent high school academic backgrounds. You can also argue that they are set up well to provide above average instruction based on student to teacher rations.

While all that can be true, the best question to ask is, "Is the taxpayer getting the best value for their money by sending a cadet to the USAFA?" I think because academy grads are not going to prestigious grad schools in huge numbers, are not doing ground-breaking research, are not founding innovative companies right off the bat, you have to justify the academies by saying the produce a better military officer, which I think they don't.

BL: the academy is an academically excellent school mostly based on the quality of students it attracts, but its cost does not justify its existence since the taxpayer-funded impact of the academy's existence is not a measurably better officer corps.

Edited December 5, 2013 by nsplayr

[Vetter]

Academically, the Academy is outstanding? Outstanding at what? Preparing its students for what?

Are Academy students doing groundbreaking research? Do they go on to develop new technologies at companies like Google/IBM/Microsoft? Do they go on to excel at Goldman Sachs at a higher rate than other colleges? Are they accepted into graduate schools at higher rates?

What exactly does the Academy do academic wise that is so outstanding? The vast majority of its graduates go on to be officers in the military, in which all of that "outstanding" academic preparation is completely unused.

Justify it if it makes you feel better, but the USAFA is not the nationally recognized institution that you cadets seem to think it is.

You keep telling yourself that as well. I've interviewed recently and many of the employers didn't bat an eye at my 2.99 in Engineering from the Academy. A few friends of mine were asked in almost every interview why they had below a 3.5 from the State University. It's not MIT, but it isn't your standard State University either. You want to bloat the Academy even more? Hire a bunch of "professors" that do "research" like at most schools.

When looking for a place to do a real Master's, I looked at many syllabi and numerous school. The level of the courses were Sophomore or Jr level from what I saw at the Academy.

[sputnik]

Are Academy students doing groundbreaking research? Do they go on to develop new technologies at companies like Google/IBM/Microsoft? Do they go on to excel at Goldman Sachs at a higher rate than other colleges? Are they accepted into graduate schools at higher rates?

What exactly does the Academy do academic wise that is so outstanding? The vast majority of its graduates go on to be officers in the military, in which all of that "outstanding" academic preparation is completely unused.

Justify it if it makes you feel better, but the USAFA is not the nationally recognized institution that you cadets seem to think it is.

I'm not talking about what cadets upon graduation, nor am I understanding how that has anything to do with the academic excellence. Yes, graduates do go on to military careers...what does that have to do with anything? Whether or not they directly use the education says nothing about the quality of the education. My post pointed out that USAFA is, in fact, an excellent academic institution. As measured by accreditation boards and organizations that ranks schools. How do you judge academics?

Groundbreaking research? Dunno, this is a teaching school, and it's undergraduate only, but among other things it is the only undergraduate school to put satellites into orbit. We do capstone projects for SOCOM and DARPA, and they are usually happy with the results. No idea about grad school acceptance rates, but my department did send ~20% of our last graduating class to grad school. The number of Rhodes scholars has been mentioned (and mocked). I don't really know how that matters either. Civilian careers? Absolutely no idea, would be interesting to find that out. We do send "interns" all over the world during the summer. Pretty sure I've seen Google on the list, I'm unconvinced that Microsoft does anything cutting edge so again, not sure how that would matter.

Hate the place, hate grads, think the place ought to be closed. That's all fine, but by any objective measure, academically it is an excellent school.

Edited December 5, 2013 by sputnik

[Egghead]

Academically, the Academy is outstanding? Outstanding at what? Preparing its students for what?

Are Academy students doing groundbreaking research? Do they go on to develop new technologies at companies like Google/IBM/Microsoft? Do they go on to excel at Goldman Sachs at a higher rate than other colleges? Are they accepted into graduate schools at higher rates?

What exactly does the Academy do academic wise that is so outstanding? The vast majority of its graduates go on to be officers in the military, in which all of that "outstanding" academic preparation is completely unused.

Justify it if it makes you feel better, but the USAFA is not the nationally recognized institution that you cadets seem to think it is.

~10% of graduates attend graduate/medical/nursing/dental school.

Of that, typically:

3 to Harvard Kennedy School

~10 to MIT (Draper/Lincoln labs usually)

~ 1-2 to Rice (Draper)

3 to UofMaryland Public Policy

3 to Pardee RAND Graduate School (PhD)

1 Holiday Scholarship to Oxford

~1 or more Rhodes, Marshall, Hertz, Truman scholarships

The rest usually spread between AFIT-CI programs and AFIT proper at Wright-Patt.

Med school ranges all over but not uncommon to see grads head to Harvard and John Hopkins.

The top places like MIT, Harvard, RAND, etc. keep asking USAFA to send them.

Academics are good.

[scoobs]

For those who attended the USAFA did you enjoy it or do you wish you would have gone to another college?

[Egghead]

For those who attended the USAFA did you enjoy it or do you wish you would have gone to another college?

Loved my time there and wouldn't have traded it or the opportunities I had for a civilian institution. Went to a civilian grad program after and didn't feel like I missed anything.

[ThreeHoler]

Loved my time there and wouldn't have traded it or the opportunities I had for a civilian institution. Went to a civilian grad program after and didn't feel like I missed anything.

Don't feed the troll.

[HossHarris]

For those who attended the USAFA did you enjoy it or do you wish you would have gone to another college?

I wouldn't necessarily use the word "enjoy" ... But I'm glad I went, would do it again if I had it to do all over, and would recommend to the right hs seniors.

[raimius]

For those who attended the USAFA did you enjoy it or do you wish you would have gone to another college?

Enjoy it? Sometimes. Good days were really cool, and bad days really sucked (sts).

I do not regret my decision to attend. I got the job I wanted, a ton of unique/extremely rare opportunities, great friends, and no real debt to speak of.

Is it worth it to the taxpayer? Hard to tell. Personally, I think having a mix of commissioning sources gives the service people who can think in different ways. Diversity of ideas can help sanity check things and bring out innovative solutions.

Edited December 5, 2013 by raimius

[Masshole]

Dude, the problem is you keep posting about how great the Academy is compared to other schools. It's a good school, but it is nowhere near top 20. It is only ranked amongst schools without graduate degree programs...not really a huge pool there. Again, I've got no problem with Academy grads, however, a lot of the ones I have thought were douchebags seemed to think they graduated from MIT because they took a beginner's astro class as a management major.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

We only have 41 Rhodes Scholars, so by the logic executed in this thread we're not much better than USAFA, right?

[Masshole]

As a Junior at USAFA, I'd like to give my perspective.

I do not consider Academy graduates to be superior to ROTC/OTS counterparts nor do many of my classmates have that opinion.

I came to USAFA for intrinsic reasons and will not reference my commissioning source when I graduate because performance on operational duty is what matters.

Many people are saying the Academy "sucks" and this cynicism exists with cadets who merely try to skid by.

We have the chance to party it up at local colleges such as Boulder, CSU, or DU on the weekends, but we can't drink in our dorms. We do have a bar which many cadets occupy until 2300.

If you're a high performer, there are some pretty cool opportunities. I was able to get over 30 glider sorties and planning to head to the aeroclub every other day next semester. I'm scheduled for Basic Parachuting senior year. Last summer I did language immersion training for three weeks and spent another three weeks at an Air Force base touring the various career fields. This upcoming summer, I will be conducting research at an intelligence agency. Next fall semester, I will be on a semester abroad to a civilian university, yet I will still commission in May 2015 with the AFSC that I want. We also have a pre-IFS course that cadets can take for free along with everything else. All that military stuff we do is a small price to pay for what we have here.

I don't know if there is a quality difference between the commissioning sources or if the Academy is worth it, but I know it has pretty neat perks for its students.

In all seriousness, this is a great post. Your undergraduate education is what you make of it, whether it is Nowhere State University or Harvard. Yes, the top schools will grant you more opportunities through networking, but it is on the student to pull the information and learn. The AFA's mission is to produce officers for the Air Force, so judging the strength of its academics on the amount of research their students do is silly. They're not in the business of employing students to research assignments. On the same note, thinking the number of Rhodes Scholars produced by an institution is a sole indicator of the university's academics is equally as folly.

Comparing USAFA to an Ivy League school or any civilian institution is like comparing a running back to a corner back. Completely different aspects. Regardless, it's a good commissioning source and provides a very solid education.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Masshole

[Chida]

For those who attended the USAFA did you enjoy it or do you wish you would have gone to another college?

I get asked this frequently and so I've thought about it. I never had a desire to go to any other place before or after. I had good times and I had bad times and I mostly only remember the good times at this point. I accomplished a lot, grew up a lot, and made some great friends and great memories. the prize at the end made it worth it: If I had not gotten a UPT slot it would have soured the deal considerably.

So, BLAB: I enjoyed it and don't wish I had gone to another college.