murdocjxx Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I flew my form 8 and got everything but 2 patterns due to an EP. Landed, did the ground eval got commendable and they tell me they want me to complete the entire checkride again because i didn't get the patterns. Isn't that double jeopardy? I've already completed form 8 events on a form 8 check evaluated by an FE and last I checked an EP does not void a checkride. Shouldn't I just have to get the patterns? Anyone know the reg that deals with checkrides, not the vol 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LockheedFix Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Double jeopardy, that's hilarious! You aren't being tried in a court of law, you're being periodically requalified to fly a USAF aircraft. They can give you all the checkrides they want. I had five one year, including two no-notices. And the vol. 2s (11-202 and 11-2MDS) are the regs that deal with checkrides. I don't know what other reg you might be referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I don't know what other reg you might be referring to. The one that has this on the cover... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestik Møøse Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 It's probably because somebody used check marks instead of Xs in the signature block. This is the kind of error that could bring down an entire flying squadron; they must want to do the whole thing over just to make sure everything is kosher. But seriously, the Vol 2s have it all, specifically Chapter 5. But I wouldn't worry about studying that stuff, it looks like you have a checkride coming up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murdocjxx Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 The one that has this on the cover... touche... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 (edited) touche... BL, Stan Eval sucks cock. Look at it as an opportunity...even though it is obviously adding zero value. Seriously, it's just a checkride. You've already flown one and it sounds like you kicked it in the balls. Don't sweat another one. Kick it in the balls, too. Edited September 8, 2011 by Rainman A-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Anyone know the reg that deals with checkrides, not the vol 2. Found your problem right there... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPStryker Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Sounds like your stan/eval shop has gone full retard. You need to walk in there and DEMAND to be verbally evaluated on your remaining grading areas. Remind them that in today's fiscally constrained environment Uncle Sam doesn't have the dough to pay for you to do another complete checkride profile. If that doesn't work, talk to the IG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 If that doesn't work, talk to the IG. Or fly another sortie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 You need to walk in there and DEMAND to be verbally evaluated on your remaining grading areas. Nice. Let me know how that goes for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Lumbergh Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Just out of curiosity, are you in an MWS or an AETC trainer? During my time in AETC, FAIPs were often blissfully unaware of the volume 1 and 2 for their MDS unless they worked in the training shop or were a Form 8 evaluator pilot. We were too busy teaching and trying to stay ahead of the timeline to care. No matter what your MDS, quibbling with Stan Eval probably won't be met with enthusiasm, especially if you are the new guy/gal in the squadron (hope I'm not assuming too much). You don't want to look like a whiner, but as stated above, the 11-202 vol 2 and your 11-MDS vol 2 would be the place to look if you wanted to press the issue; don't forget the local and MAJCOM supplements. As a line flyer, your time is better spent in the 11-202 vol 3 and 11-MDS vol 3, but you should at least know what volume 2 covers and where to find what you need (i.e., what is my profile, what's required to complete the evaluation, and what are the grading criteria). When you upgrade to instructor and evaluator in your MWS, you'll need to have a better working knowledge of volumes 1 and 2 for those pubs. Personally, the only time I wanted to see a maneuver flown the second time as an evaluator was if the first one was "on the line" and not clearly Q- or U, and I can count those instances on one hand; more often than not, the tie goes to the runner. If there was any question on any maneuvers, I'm probably not giving out any commendables, but I can't speak for your evaluator; doesn't sound like you had any issues, so I wouldn't sweat it. Bottom line, keep a good attitude, maybe ask some of the more experienced pilots how they interpret the AFI, but don't let it look like you are quibbling or complaining; after all, I don't know what your vol 2 says, and Stan Eval could be out to lunch. If the first ride went as well as you said it did, another one should be no problem. Attitude counts for a lot in a flying squadron, so make yours a good one, don't do anything stupid, and you should be fine. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prozac Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Agree with what Rainman and others have said here. Take it as another opportunity to show what you've got and try not to suck. BUT...the point that was made about cost was a valid one. Not sure what your MDS is, but flying hours are not going up for anybody as far as I know. We don't have the full story so it's diffucult to make a judgement on what your leadership is thinking. If I was making the call, I'd be considering the fact that I'd be taking good training away from your peers to re-fly your check. Put some faith in your DO and assume he's thought it through. If he hasn't, chalk it up as a lesson in Sq leadership and press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Sounds like your stan/eval shop has gone full retard. You need to walk in there and DEMAND to be verbally evaluated on your remaining grading areas. Remind them that in today's fiscally constrained environment Uncle Sam doesn't have the dough to pay for you to do another complete checkride profile. If that doesn't work, talk to the IG. Never go full retard. FAIPs should not be giving form 8s, they don't have the picture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I've already completed form 8 events on a form 8 check evaluated by an FE and last I checked an EP does not void a checkride. Shouldn't I just have to get the patterns It's completely their choice. Yes, you could just go fly the two patterns, land and call it good. There is not a requirement to re-fly already graded items, but items that will be flown anyways (takeoff, departure, etc) are all fair game...you just don't have to do another ILS for example if you already knocked that out prior to the EP. You also could go fly a completely different mission and just add the patterns at the end, but once again, the entire ride is fair game technically, but that doesn't mean the EP must grade you on already graded items, it just means he has the option (so just because you flew a great departure last time doesn't mean you won't get a downgrade for a heinous departure flown this time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JS Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Sounds like your stan/eval shop has gone full retard. You need to walk in there and DEMAND to be verbally evaluated on your remaining grading areas. Remind them that in today's fiscally constrained environment Uncle Sam doesn't have the dough to pay for you to do another complete checkride profile. If that doesn't work, talk to the IG. Yeah, definitely let the Stan Eval shop know who is boss. And don't ever forget Rule #1 when it comes to check rides: when in doubt, always argue with your evaluator - especially when you know you are right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriously Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Yeah, definitely let the Stan Eval shop know who is boss. And don't ever forget Rule #1 when it comes to check rides: when in doubt, always argue with your evaluator - especially when you know you are right. If you prove you know more than the evaluator, it's pretty much an unwritten rule they HAVE to put you in STAN/EVAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 If you're not ready for a checkride EVERY time you step, you probably shouldn't step in the first place. I don't get these guys who have to feverishly prepare for a checkride... isn't it your JOB to be as goos as you can be at all times? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) If you're not ready for a checkride EVERY time you step, you probably shouldn't step in the first place. I don't get these guys who have to feverishly prepare for a checkride... isn't it your JOB to be as goos as you can be at all times? You know that is not our job anymore in today's Air Force. Our jobs today are to be the Wing Combined Federal Campaign Officer or the Group Christmas Party planner. Flying and studying all flying related materials are now extra duties we accomplish when we have spare time from our primary queep duties! Edited September 9, 2011 by Tank 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsokimapilot Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 If you're not ready for a checkride EVERY time you step, you probably shouldn't step in the first place. I don't get these guys who have to feverishly prepare for a checkride... isn't it your JOB to be as goos as you can be at all times? It doesn't hurt to prepare for a checkride. You are demonstrating to the evaluator that the eval is important to you. The N/N and spot evals are designed to ensure that you are safe and complying with command guidance all the time. If you don't prepare for an annual eval you may pass, but I want to see you strive to do great. I don't know a single copilot/AC that knows it all, hitting the books a little harder (sts) isn't a bad thing, is it? I think it is also good form to start the eval by having the examinee recite the Airmen's creed followed by all verses of the AF song. Excellence in all we do, right? JK 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Pipes Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I guess it all depends... was the EP caused by your hard landing on the ILS where you were two dots high after overspeeding the flaps? Seriously though, just play the game. If it is a different evaluator I'm sure he already knows that this is checkride part 2. Bring it up casually in the pre-brief once... "Yeah, we knocked out 90% of the profile on Monday before we had the EP, but at least I get to fly again." I'm not sure what you fly, but if able I would plan on knocking out whatever you missed on ride one first. Give the evaluator the chance to say, "Dude, you're good, mind if I fly for a while?" If he doesn't then just fly the thing like you're supposed to... the jet and the ILS don't know it’s a checkride! Chances are the evaluator is thinking more about the stack of OPRs, awards packages, and the dumb ass change of command he got roped into and is just happy to not be in the office! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADFNZ Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Never go full retard. FAIPs should not be giving form 8s, they don't have the picture. Where was it stated that a FAIP was giving a form 8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) Where was it stated that a FAIP was giving a form 8? Ironically, from a post by Mr. Lumbergh. Edited September 10, 2011 by nunya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Lumbergh Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) Michael Bolton: "That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life, Tom." Samir: "Yes, this is horrible, this idea." I'll own up to my poor wording in the previous post. For clarification, FAIPs never gave Form 8 evaluations at my UPT base for exactly the reason stated: not enough experience and no MWS perspective. I think I heard about one of my bros getting upgraded after I left AETC, but I never saw it happen while I was there. Can't vouch for what has changed since I left, though. edit: clarification Edited September 10, 2011 by Bill Lumbergh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Maybe you did horrible on your checkride and they are helping you out with another chance. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrooster99 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 If you're not ready for a checkride EVERY time you step, you probably shouldn't step in the first place. I don't get these guys who have to feverishly prepare for a checkride... isn't it your JOB to be as goos as you can be at all times? Really? So if you haven't flown an NDB in a few months and you're about to get evaluated on one, you don't think it's good technique to brush up on it? What about deployments, where there are events that you simply can't get? You should just jump right into an evaluation the day you get back from CTO, right? Skills are perishable, particularly for the new guys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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