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54 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

And pretty much all gun free zones, if only they had passed a law.

This!  Many (not all...like Vegas) of those shootings would likely have had fewer casualties if just one person had fired back.  A lot of the shooters, dropped and ran, gave up or committed suicide, at the first sign of resistance.  Many of these shooters are comforted in the fact that they know no one will be able to fight back.  They're all cowards.    

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9 hours ago, Seriously said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States#Education

Most went to college, several were lawyers, and only 4 were self-taught or had little formal education.

Also, the founding fathers created the judiciary branch so that lawyers could interpret the constitution for the lay people....

But the first law school in the US didn't start teaching until 1780. Some were lawyers, but they were self-taught or apprenticed at best. 

And the concept of judicial review didn't come from the founding fathers, it came from the Supreme Court in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison).

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And the concept of judicial review didn't come from the founding fathers, it came from the Supreme Court in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison).


Well, you did a great job completely invalidating your arguments here. Go read Federalist Paper No. 78.
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35 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Go read Federalist Paper No. 78.

The Federalist Papers are mandatory reading for anyone who wishes to have any serious conversation about Constitutional issues with respect to what the Founders really intended.

Folks should also dig deeper into the philosophy aspect of the Founders mindset by reading stuff like Locke's Two Treatises on Government (the second one being the relevant one).

Although it was published well after the Founders did their thing, John Stuart Mill's On Liberty is great foundational reading, too.

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1 hour ago, Hacker said:

The Federalist Papers are mandatory reading for anyone who wishes to have any serious conversation about Constitutional issues with respect to what the Founders really intended.

Folks should also dig deeper into the philosophy aspect of the Founders mindset by reading stuff like Locke's Two Treatises on Government (the second one being the relevant one).

Although it was published well after the Founders did their thing, John Stuart Mill's On Liberty is great foundational reading, too.

Concur!

Sadly, in a world where people are too lazy to even type out the words "too long, didn't read", very few will take up the charge of self education, though your recommendations are spot on. 

The laziness of an America that would rather debate their opinions rather than learn facts, analyze them, and put their opinions to the test...possibly even changing them...this is one of the root causes of our problem.  If cowards went out into the world and discover that their situation isn't really as bad as they thought, they wouldn't go on murderous rampages.  Alas, we live in a world where it's all about 'me', and when that world all about 'me' turns depressing, it's everyone else's fault, so I'll kill as many of them as I can before I go out in a blaze of glory...which often actually ends in a tragic homicide/suicide.

You want to change this world right now?  Parent your kids.  Seriously.  If fathers in America simply stood up and fathered their children, events like this wouldn't happen.  I'm not saying it's easy.  It isn't.  But nothing worth doing ever is.

Here's a challenge: If you are a father, put the device down, and engage with the those hearts and minds you created...they're watching everything you do and don't do, and they'll respond in kind.  Teach them your beliefs.  Give them a foundation on which to stand when the world turns ugly, and they'll be able to stand.  Raise men and women, not teenagers who never grew up.

...standing by for the TL, DR response.

Edited by FourFans130
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Ok mods, how about cutting off the chatter here and creating another thread where people can continue the unrelated discussion. I thought this thread was for stuff like kitten juggling and chicks with three boobs. To get us back on track I provide the following:

http://italychronicles.com/cats-milk-mozzarella/

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18 hours ago, Hacker said:

The Federalist Papers are mandatory reading for anyone who wishes to have any serious conversation about Constitutional issues with respect to what the Founders really intended.

Folks should also dig deeper into the philosophy aspect of the Founders mindset by reading stuff like Locke's Two Treatises on Government (the second one being the relevant one).

Although it was published well after the Founders did their thing, John Stuart Mill's On Liberty is great foundational reading, too.

Holy shit, Hacker.  And all this time, the only reading I thought you did were P-51 flight manuals, beer labels, and steamy romance novels.  

Look at the big brain on his shoulders!

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On October 7, 2017 at 1:32 PM, Vertigo said:

That's the same BS argument used when gay marriage was being debated "People will marry their dogs, or their toasters".

When someone wants to discuss reasonable, common sense, gun control measures, it's disingenuous to reframe it as a discussion about abolishing firearms.

Thanks--I always knew you weren't a real libertarian, just another progressive. 

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On 10/7/2017 at 10:06 PM, Smokin said:

Hughes may be part of the problem, but the real 'problem' with banning items is innovation.  As soon as the government passes a law or the ATF issues a letter making a specific thing illegal, people will find a way to get the same result using a new work around that accomplishes a similar result in a legal manner.  It's not just the bump stock, but the arm brace and countless other things to work around the law.  In modern times when a middle class American can afford to buy automated milling equipment and manufacture their own parts or even entire guns, arbitrary laws banning specific items are obsolete before they even take effect.  The problem is only going to get worse as technology increases and prices decrease.  I'm actually surprised we don't have a bigger problem with people buying ARs and retooling them to be full auto, but that will probably happen if the bump stock gets banned.

 

But the true root cause of attacks like this is America as a country deliberately walking away from the moral foundation of our country.  We have banned God and related religious morals from our government and society while simultaneously crying out against the evils of society that inevitably result.  Hatred of people across the political isle is given only cursory public condemnation while de facto encouraged within both political parties.  While a problem with both sides, the easiest example is the "love trumps hate" slogan protesters carry just before they start throwing rocks or worse.

Interesting, when did we have a moral forundation?

Did this just recently occur?

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Kids, being kids. Some are dumber than others. I hope leadership fixes them, rather than destroys them

"You can't fix stupid"

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On 10/14/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Ratner said:

Kids, being kids. 

Knocking over porta-potties with their buds inside is "kids being kids", in my opinion. 

Personally, I want nothing to to with "kids" that want to tag a historic church with satanic graffiti. I don't believe this behavior meets the cut, and I do not want them in my country's military  

Additionally, had the target of their vandalism been a synagogue, NAACP office, or a building flying a gay pride flag... with the appropriate words that get media attention... the outrage would have been front page national news. 

These Airmen are broken. Get new ones.  We have almost nothing invested in them.  

Just one man's opinion. 

Edited by HuggyU2
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On October 14, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Lord Ratner said:
On October 13, 2017 at 1:25 PM, pbar said:

Kids, being kids. Some are dumber than others. I hope leadership fixes them, rather than destroys them

I guess these kids were also just being kids...or do you disagree?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/09/30/air-force-academy-leader-delivers-stern-speech-on-racism-after-bias-incident-on-campus/

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Knocking over porta-potties with their buds inside is "kids being kids", in my opinion. 
Personally, I want nothing to to with "kids" that want to tag a historic church with satanic graffiti. I don't believe this behavior meets the cut, and I do not want them in my country's military  
Additionally, had the target of their vandalism been a synagogue, NAACP office, or a building flying a gay pride flag... with the appropriate words that get media attention... the outrage would have been front page national news. 
These Airmen are broken. Get new ones.  We have almost nothing invested in them.  
Just one man's opinion. 
That's interesting. I'd rather clean a star with a circle off the wall than get covered in the collected shit of 300 people.

I honestly don't know if my highschool was just some anomaly full of evil hellions who found the redemptive power of age, but I've noticed that people get really skilled at forgetting their own youthful transgressions, or worse, pretending like theirs were "completely different."

I wonder how Jesus himself would treat teenagers who spray painted his house with the symbols of his enemy.

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3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

That's interesting. I'd rather clean a star with a circle off the wall than get covered in the collected shit of 300 people.

I honestly don't know if my highschool was just some anomaly full of evil hellions who found the redemptive power of age, but I've noticed that people get really skilled at forgetting their own youthful transgressions, or worse, pretending like theirs were "completely different."

I wonder how Jesus himself would treat teenagers who spray painted his house with the symbols of his enemy.

So stuff like satanic graffiti on churches was standard stuff where you grew up?  

 

6 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Knocking over porta-potties with their buds inside is "kids being kids", in my opinion. 

Personally, I want nothing to to with "kids" that want to tag a historic church with satanic graffiti. I don't believe this behavior meets the cut, and I do not want them in my country's military  

Additionally, had the target of their vandalism been a synagogue, NAACP office, or a building flying a gay pride flag... with the appropriate words that get media attention... the outrage would have been front page national news. 

These Airmen are broken. Get new ones.  We have almost nothing invested in them.  

Just one man's opinion. 

Completely agree

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On 10/8/2017 at 10:41 AM, matmacwc said:

And pretty much all gun free zones, if only they had passed a law.

Give those who are determined to commit crimes easy access to the tools to commit those crimes and expect they'll commit those crimes with ease.

I have a rule in my house that my kids can't eat candy past 9pm when they brush their teeth and go to bed. What do you think would happen if I put a bowl of candy on their nightstand? How about if I put the bowl of candy in a cabinet above the refrigerator? Or if I had no candy in the house at all? 

Edited by Vertigo

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On 10/11/2017 at 7:08 AM, HeloDude said:

Thanks--I always knew you weren't a real libertarian, just another progressive. 

So because I'm able to understand progressives arguments (not that I agree with them) that labels me as a progressive. Noted.

I guess I should stop trying to understand the viewpoint of others and only speak in the echo chamber of libertarianism or risk having others label me.

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14 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

Give those who are determined to commit crimes easy access to the tools to commit those crimes and expect they'll commit those crimes with ease.

I have a rule in my house that my kids can't eat candy past 9pm when they brush their teeth and go to bed. What do you think would happen if I put a bowl of candy on their nightstand? How about if I put the bowl of candy in a cabinet above the refrigerator? Or if I had no candy in the house at all? 

This is not a good parallel argument. 

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