Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

[Nineline]

Speaking of type ratings.. once upon a time AD types could use the one-time certification benefit associated with TA for type ratings (along with incurring an additional 3yr ADSC). Anyone know if this is still possible?

-9-

[Buddy Spike]

Wait, why can't you just use the GI Bill to get the ATP without a type rating?

[HerkFE]

Wait, why can't you just use the GI Bill to get the ATP without a type rating?

I was kinda wondering the same thing but I don't have a dog in the fight and was too lazy to try to look it up. I was fairly certain you could do just that (ATP w/o type rating) with the GI bill. As nunya said, it just has to be a 141 approved course which can be slightly difficult to find without maybe a little travel involved.

[amcflyboy]

Airline Transport Professionals is another one. That's where I got my ATP. They have a three day accelerated course for instrument proficient pilots (dudes like us). Its a non-type rate course, and they accept GI Bill.

[LockheedFix]

Airline Transport Professionals is another one. That's where I got my ATP. They have a three day accelerated course for instrument proficient pilots (dudes like us). Its a non-type rate course, and they accept GI Bill.

What does a three day course like this consist of?

I spoke with the local flight service and they just check you out on a Beech Duchess for $250/hr and then you can log time on your own and then they'll schedule you for your checkride. Sounds like you could save a thousand bucks and not have to take three days of leave to do it that way.

Has anybody in here done it this way?

[El-Fist]

What does a three day course like this consist of?

I spoke with the local flight service and they just check you out on a Beech Duchess for $250/hr and then you can log time on your own and then they'll schedule you for your checkride. Sounds like you could save a thousand bucks and not have to take three days of leave to do it that way.

Has anybody in here done it this way?

I would use caution with that method. There is a ton of info to know for the ground eval; things like MEL's, required documents, tons of AIM/FAR, knowledge, etc. Also, I know nothing about the Beech D, but does it have a GPS box you are familiar with?

I would personally use the ground school portion of any of these ATP training programs. Typically, they work with a small handful of FAA examiners and are very familiar with their flight profiles, questions they like to ask during the ground eval, pet peeves, etc. Take all of the help (gouge) you can get. Ask the dudes around your squadron what they did...

I think it is well worth the 3 days of leave and the $1K you are looking to save to have some instructed prep time. You don't want to bust an FAA check ride because you were cheap, or wanted to save 3 days of leave to sit on the couch in tighty-whities watching the Golf Channel.

Just my opinion. Best of luck in whatever path you choose!

Cheers,

E-F

[nunya]

Not so much ATP anymore.

https://www.atpflightschool.com/va/

[Hueypilot]

I would use caution with that method. There is a ton of info to know for the ground eval; things like MEL's, required documents, tons of AIM/FAR, knowledge, etc. Also, I know nothing about the Beech D, but does it have a GPS box you are familiar with?

They do NOT ask you about FAR/AIM stuff or any instrument/flying knowledge on the ATP practical. Look at the PTS, it basically says the ground eval is over the airplane you are checking in. They do ask about MELs but a light twin doesn't have much of one. As for docs, cover the the basics required to be legal and you'll be fine.

LockheedFix, I'm guessing you are asking about Central Flying Service, since they have a Beech Duchess. I got my ATP from there. It's an easy airplane to fly, very simple systems (if you bust the check over the ground eval which is aircraft stuff, you're a moron). That one (N184ER) has dual GNS-430s. Yes you have to know how to use them on the check, but its easy to figure out and they have a plan view of your route and approach. It's cake.

They use a DPE who's more than fair and he likes military folks. 2-3 flights and a check should be adequate. The DPE follows the PTS, so if you want to know how the eval will go, it spells it out.

Good luck.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Hueypilot

[duece123]

They do NOT ask you about FAR/AIM stuff or any instrument/flying knowledge on the ATP practical. Look at the PTS, it basically says the ground eval is over the airplane you are checking in. They do ask about MELs but a light twin doesn't have much of one. As for docs, cover the the basics required to be legal and you'll be fine.

LockheedFix, I'm guessing you are asking about Central Flying Service, since they have a Beech Duchess. I got my ATP from there. It's an easy airplane to fly, very simple systems (if you bust the check over the ground eval which is aircraft stuff, you're a moron). That one (N184ER) has dual GNS-430s. Yes you have to know how to use them on the check, but its easy to figure out and they have a plan view of your route and approach. It's cake.

They use a DPE who's more than fair and he likes military folks. 2-3 flights and a check should be adequate. The DPE follows the PTS, so if you want to know how the eval will go, it spells it out.

Good luck.

That is not how mine went. I went to ATP and was unfortunate enough to have a really asshole examiner. I memorized the book they gave me on the piper Seminole. Once the DPE found out I was a mil dude, he kicked it into second gear. Asked me all kinds of ridiculous questions (what are the 3 types of O2 masks is one i remember), and then berated me when I didn't know the answer. The flight was the worst flight of my life. the dude was literally screaming. I passed, but was so livid I refused to shake his hand after the flight. It was extremly evident that he was not a fan of military and how we are trained . He literally told me that.

Morale of story....do your homework. Use the same "guy" that all your other mil buds used. I didn't go to the "guy" because I was too cheap to buy a plane ticket. I make sure the young dudes in my squadron don't make the same mistake as me.

[Buddy Spike]

Not so much ATP anymore.

https://www.atpflightschool.com/va/

This seals it for me. HPA it is.

[Hueypilot]

That is not how mine went. I went to ATP and was unfortunate enough to have a really asshole examiner. I memorized the book they gave me on the piper Seminole. Once the DPE found out I was a mil dude, he kicked it into second gear. Asked me all kinds of ridiculous questions (what are the 3 types of O2 masks is one i remember), and then berated me when I didn't know the answer. The flight was the worst flight of my life. the dude was literally screaming. I passed, but was so livid I refused to shake his hand after the flight. It was extremly evident that he was not a fan of military and how we are trained . He literally told me that.

Morale of story....do your homework. Use the same "guy" that all your other mil buds used. I didn't go to the "guy" because I was too cheap to buy a plane ticket. I make sure the young dudes in my squadron don't make the same mistake as me.

Sorry that it didn't work out for you, but they are supposed to follow the PTS and not make up their own agenda. The PTS is pretty clear what's required. For LRF dudes, Central and the DPE they use is pretty spot on.

[El-Fist]

They do NOT ask you about FAR/AIM stuff or any instrument/flying knowledge on the ATP practical. Look at the PTS, it basically says the ground eval is over the airplane you are checking in.

Did mine 6 months ago. My examiner was very cool, but I did get a few questions on the FAR/AIM stuff. I was prepared because I took advantage of the ground training. The ground eval will very likely extend beyond the scope of the aircraft you are flying. I'm not an expert on the PTS or the process, just speaking from my own experience.

Morale of story....do your homework. Use the same "guy" that all your other mil buds used. I didn't go to the "guy" because I was too cheap to buy a plane ticket. I make sure the young dudes in my squadron don't make the same mistake as me.

Not the first time I've heard this. It's great advice.

[RTB]

Just did my ATP this past weekend and figured I'd pass on some new gouge, and re-emphasize some previously posted info.

First, DO NOT WAIT TO GET YOUR ATP WRITTEN DONE!!! As has already been mentioned, after July of next year, it becomes SIGNIFICANTLY more complicated and expensive (training) to qualify to take the written. It's good for 2 years, more if you're currently flying an AF aircraft, so get it done before then using the Sheppard Air test prep software. After July 2014, it's a huge asspain and will be pretty expensive to qualify. Check out 61.156 at this LINK if you want the painful details.

Second, if your background is fighter only, be aware that the requirements for the practical test are also in flux. Some FSDOs are issuing Mil Comp Commercial certificates as Airplane SINGLE ENGINE Land if you only have time in multi engine "centerline thrust" aircraft (A-10, F-15, F-22, F-18, T-37, T-38, etc). DPE I flew with has seen several over the past few months issued as ASEL. According to the DPE I flew with, that's a problem so if you go to one that wants to do that, leave. Other FSDOs are still issuing Airplane Multi Engine Land, Centerline Trust Restricted Commercials for Mil Comp. But, and this is the potential issue, even if your current certificate is multi engine "centerline thrust" restricted, you have to find an examiner willing to count your centerline trust multi engine time (assuming that's all you have) as "pure" multi engine time when the application asks for hours in CLASS. Some apparently won't count "centerline thrust" multi engine time for the ATP and you need 50 hours in CLASS (Multi Engine) to qualify. If your DPE won't count that when filliing out the IACRA online application, you're out of luck so time to find a different DPE.

Third, if getting your Mil Comp Instructor added to your certificate, the current rules will only allow you to add "Instrument Airplane" with no specific CLASS (ASEL or AMEL) if all you've flown is multi-engine centerline thrust aircraft as an instructor. Since I've only been an IP in F-15s and T-38s, my Flight Instructor add is only for Instrument Airplane. I'll eventually have to add either a single or multi-engine add-on to that (much easier than getting an initial FAA instructor check I'm told). They no longer issue AMEL centerline thrust Instructor certificates which were pretty much useless anyway.

That's about it. BL - get your shit done NOW.

[RTB]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the most important part! Same DPE in Boston some others have mentioned earlier. Details via PM if you want but $1800 plus airfare, hotel and car. Just under $2500 when it was all said and done, plus some awesome seafood in Boston.

I should add that he actually called the FAA certification branch in Oklahoma to ask about the multiengine time issue I mentioned above. He talked to several people there because nobody seemed to know the answer. Ultimately, the answer was it's up to the examiner to determine if your multiengine time qualifies. Cool.

Edited October 2, 2013 by RTB

[AA]

If you're planning to attend AIS, they now have an FAA test center where you can take the Mil Comp and ATP written while you are there. Call them for more details.

[Hueypilot]

Check with your base education office too. Some offer FAA testing for free (LRF does). Although now you'll have to wait till they turn the government back on.

[Wolf424]

After searching, couldn't find this answer...

Is there anything that prohibits you from taking the ATP written prior to achieving 1500 hours? I'm going to be really close to 1500 by July, but I thought I'd check.

[Royal]

After searching, couldn't find this answer...

Is there anything that prohibits you from taking the ATP written prior to achieving 1500 hours? I'm going to be really close to 1500 by July, but I thought I'd check.

Negative, and there's nothing stopping you from getting your ATP at 750 hours if you graduated from UPT; the 750 hours allows you to include civilian time per FAR 61.160.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Royal

[C-21.Pilot]

Agree with Royal. BUT, you will have your hours scrubbed prior to taking the practical and as well prior to the FSDO to ensure minimums are met.

[BADFNZ]

Did we reach a consensus on how long the written is good for? I've heard:

a. Indefinitely

b. 2 years

c. Indefinitely, as long as you're on AD

I'd like to take it before July but have zero intention on taking the practical anytime soon.

[RTB]

Did we reach a consensus on how long the written is good for? I've heard:

a. Indefinitely

b. 2 years

c. Indefinitely, as long as you're on AD

I'd like to take it before July but have zero intention on taking the practical anytime soon.

Its good as long as you are an active military pilot when you take the ATP practical

[TheGuardGuy]

Its good as long as you are an active military pilot when you take the ATP practical

Not exactly - Read carefully. (Practical Test = FAA Checkride)

§61.39 Prerequisites for practical tests.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), ©, and (e) of this section, to be eligible for a practical test for a certificate or rating issued under this part, an applicant must:

(1) Pass the required knowledge test:

(i) Within the 24-calendar-month period preceding the month the applicant completes the practical test, if a knowledge test is required; or

(ii) Within the 60-calendar month period preceding the month the applicant completes the practical test for those applicants who complete the airline transport pilot certification training program in §61.156 and pass the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate with a multiengine class rating after July 31, 2014;

(2) Present the knowledge test report at the time of application for the practical test, if a knowledge test is required;

(3) Have satisfactorily accomplished the required training and obtained the aeronautical experience prescribed by this part for the certificate or rating sought;

(4) Hold at least a third-class medical certificate, if a medical certificate is required;

(5) Meet the prescribed age requirement of this part for the issuance of the certificate or rating sought;

(6) Have an endorsement, if required by this part, in the applicant's logbook or training record that has been signed by an authorized instructor who certifies that the applicant—

(i) Has received and logged training time within 2 calendar months preceding the month of application in preparation for the practical test;

(ii) Is prepared for the required practical test; and

(iii) Has demonstrated satisfactory knowledge of the subject areas in which the applicant was deficient on the airman knowledge test; and

(7) Have a completed and signed application form.

(b) An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane type rating may take the practical test with an expired knowledge test only if the applicant passed the knowledge test after July 31, 2014, and is employed:

(1) As a flightcrew member by a part 119 certificate holder conducting operations under parts 125 or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved pilot-in-command training or checking program; or

(2) As a flightcrew member by a part 119 certificate holder conducting operations under part 121 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved initial training program; or

(3) By the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought.

© An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate with a rating other than those ratings set forth in paragraph (b) of this section may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant is employed:

(1) As a flightcrew member by a part 119 certificate holder conducting operations under parts 125 or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved pilot-in-command training or checking program; or

(2) By the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought.

(d) In addition to the requirements in paragraph (a) of this section, to be eligible for a practical test for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or airline transport pilot certificate obtained concurrently with an airplane type rating, an applicant must:

(1) If the applicant passed the knowledge test after July 31, 2014, present the graduation certificate for the airline transport pilot certification training program in §61.156, at the time of application for the practical test;

(2) If applying for the practical test under the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.160(a), the applicant must present the documents required by that section to substantiate eligibility; and

(3) If applying for the practical test under the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.160(b), ©, or (d), the applicant must present an official transcript and certifying document from an institution of higher education that holds a letter of authorization from the Administrator under §61.169.

(e) A person is not required to comply with the provisions of paragraph (a)(6) of this section if that person:

(1) Holds a foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation that authorizes at least the privileges of the pilot certificate sought;

(2) Is only applying for a type rating; or

(3) Is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport pilot certificate in an aircraft that does not require an aircraft type rating practical test.

(f) If all increments of the practical test for a certificate or rating are not completed on the same date, then all the remaining increments of the test must be completed within 2 calendar months after the month the applicant began the test.

(g) If all increments of the practical test for a certificate or rating are not completed within 2 calendar months after the month the applicant began the test, the applicant must retake the entire practical test.

If you're wondering what the significance of July 31, 2014 is - read 61.153 (3) (ii) (e) & 61.156

Link - https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=e2823225a2dbfa1dc38c9d231fd694af&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.7&rgn=div6

SOURCE - https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=e2823225a2dbfa1dc38c9d231fd694af&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.25&rgn=div8

Get your ATP yesterday, otherwise its going to be harder than trying to breath with BQZIP's mom on top of you...

Edited January 4, 2014 by TheGuardGuy

[JS]

Agree with Royal. BUT, you will have your hours scrubbed prior to taking the practical and as well prior to the FSDO to ensure minimums are met.

Why are you dealing with the FSDO for the ATP? Do you not have a designated examiner in your area?

[Champ Kind]

GuardGuy.... I've read/re-read your post (thanks, BTW).

Maybe it's because it's 0200L and my brain is fried, but I am still not seeing a direct answer.

If I take my ATP written prior to 31 Jul 14, when is the latest I can take the practical, assuming I stay current in the C-130?

[Jaded]

It reads like something that will be up for interpretation by whatever examiner you happen to be paired up with. It's not getting any cheaper; I think most would advise scheduling it before 31 Jul 16.

I totally didn't answer your question.