Promotion and PRF Information

[ThreeHoler]

On the other hand, I remember a anecdote one of my ROTC professors relayed about the process the AF went through to switch from the OER (Officer Effectiveness Report) to the OPR (really dating myself here). He said they had a team that went and talked to most of the Fortune 500 companies about how they did evals and every company told them, "When you figure it out, come back and tell us." Performance evals will always be a hideously wicked problem to tackle and subject to human frailties. Of course, it'd be nice if the AF didn't screw it up worse than the other services...

Supposedly, the DoD is starting up "360 feedback."

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20130501/NEWS/305010023/Dempsey-360-degree-reviews-could-help-select-better-leaders

"May you live in interesting times."

[Liquid]

Liquid could you please provide one example of how an AAD made the air force more effective in flying, fighting and winning? I'm pretty sure you can't. The system you've described is very good at selecting the best hoop jumper not the best leader.

I got my AAD from Embry Riddle. Every class I took was related to flying. It made me a better pilot and prepared me for what I thought was going to be my next career in the airlines. It was easy and I knocked it out going to night school for 18 months. I was a better officer because of what I learned from my classmates and the course.

Most of our flying, fighting and winning is done by our steely eyed CGOs and Airmen/NCOs. They probably don't need AAD to be more effective. FGO, command and joint leader requirements are different. If you want to do more than your primary technical job, you need to broaden your education and experience. We do that with AAD, PME, staff and assignments.

Hoop jumpers understand the requirements for promotion defined by Big Blue and taught at many levels. If you don't want to broaden or get AAD/PME done, or accept the value of the hoops, you are in luck. You will most likely be passed over but "continued" and offered the opportunity to keep doing your kick ass job at the same grade without the expectation of more responsibilities. I know many passed over Capts and Majs who continue past 20 doing the technical job they love. Most, but not all, later regret not jumping through hoops and taking the well defined expectations for promotion and advancement seriously. They gambled, lost and regret it.

PME, AAD and broadening aren't that hard to get done. Call it useless box checking or not, if you know the expectations and deliberately self eliminate or at least lessen your chance of being in the top 80% of your year group, don't bitch about it later.

The top 20% of our force in every grade and AFSC are ######ing squared away, dedicated and deserve what they get. It is very competitive at that level and Christmas parties don't mean shit. The bottom 20% are not squared away and for the most part do not deserve to continue service at a higher grade, with different responsibilities and more pay.

Good officers get passed over. Most have a reason. A few just get caught up by mediocre records, bad timing or stronger peers. The system isn't perfect, but it also isn't too complicated.

You can be a leader as a passed over Capt, but you can't be a commander or joint leader without being in the top 20% crowd. Sure, we have plenty of leaders who meet the criteria, are selected by their functional DTs and wing CCs to lead/command but fall short. Some get fired, some squeak through, some kick ass.

[PSYCH]

I got my AAD from Embry Riddle. Every class I took was related to flying. It made me a better pilot and prepared me for what I thought was going to be my next career in the airlines. It was easy and I knocked it out going to night school for 18 months. I was a better officer because of what I learned from my classmates and the course.

Bullshit

[Jughead]

I got my AAD from Embry Riddle. Every class I took was related to flying. It made me a better pilot and prepared me for what I thought was going to be my next career in the airlines. It was easy and I knocked it out going to night school for 18 months. I was a better officer because of what I learned from my classmates and the course.

This is the funniest thing I've read here in a while....

[17D_guy]

I got my AAD from Embry Riddle...words

Who let "Sweet I'm SOF" make another account?

You can be a leader as a passed over Capt, but you can't be a commander or joint leader without being in the top 20% crowd. Sure, we have plenty of leaders who meet the criteria, are selected by their functional DTs and wing CCs to lead/command but fall short. Some get fired, some squeak through, some kick ass.

Wait.. are they top 20% or not? If they're top 20% hoop jumpers who've got broad experience, education, and joint leadership.. then why would only SOME kick ass? Are you saying within that 20% is another stratification?

How do we measure that? Is there a CBT for it?

Edited June 6, 2013 by 17D_guy

[Vetter]

That shit is downright funny'

[sqwatch]

I got my AAD from Embry Riddle. Every class I took was related to flying. It made me a better pilot and prepared me for what I thought was going to be my next career in the airlines. It was easy and I knocked it out going to night school for 18 months. I was a better officer because of what I learned from my classmates and the course.

YMMV. Here are some more AADs that the Air Force will accept as making you a better Officer: Popular Music Studies, Oriental Medicine, Wildlife and wildlands conservation, Buddhist Studies, Folklore, etc. The requirement for an AAD is legitimate, requiring it for CGOs who are just beginning to master their primary job, and taking any AAD to include the very ridiculous, is ridiculous. The fix - mask AAD for promotion to major, and consider the degree attained for promotion to Lt Col. Much like a civilian company would weigh favorably an MBA for a management position, so too should the military consider if the AAD adds to the role the individual will fill. If I hear that "any AAD is considered because it shows you have good time management skills" one more time, my cranium will explode with rage.

However, there are some good points in your post that for some are tough to hear. In my limited experience, the folks I saw in my peer group that were passed over were the ones I thought would get passed over. The ones I thought would be passed over weren't the dudes with the boxes not checked, but were the ones that sucked at their primary job and were stratified accordingly. I've seen plenty of folks get promoted with no AAD. They rolled the bones on them having strong enough PRFs against their peers without the AAD and won.

Aside from a Masters in Wood products (sts) counting toward your promotion to major, the promotion system works and is no secret to those competing for promotion.http://www.onlineclasses.org/2009/12/20/20-weird-masters-degrees-that-actually-exist/

[Champ Kind]

The top 20% of our force in every grade and AFSC are ######ing squared away, dedicated and deserve what they get.

You can't be serious.

[disgruntledemployee]

The top 20% of our force in every grade and AFSC are ######ing squared away, dedicated and deserve what they get. It is very competitive at that level and Christmas parties don't mean shit. The bottom 20% are not squared away and for the most part do not deserve to continue service at a higher grade, with different responsibilities and more pay.

You can't be serious.

Ha! The top 20% are often the best box checkers and ass kissers around.

The fix: assign a few grey beard LTCs/Majs to each unit. When it comes time to give out PRFs, the Beard Council meets. With a beer in one hand and a poker hand in the other, the council racks and stacks the future leaders of the Air Force. Do this at every base and then we'll see some interesting things change. Assholes and ass kissers will get left in the dust. Words like "knows his shit" "takes care of the crew" "hacks the mish" "runs a solid ____ shop" "always mission ready" "mentors the new kids" will replace words like "AAD complete as 2Lt" "did PME 1st day available" "1st vol to run the CFC" and so on. Real quantifiers.

Sadly, our system is like a dog chasing its tail. Our Sq/CCs and up got promoted on this system and that is what they push because its what their bosses use when they sit on a board. If a CC goes rogue and off-script, the DP givers (mosly) and boards discount the strays. The only way out is to replace the system with people that don't care about box checking AADs, etc because we know that doesn't really make anyone a better leader. The Beard Council may sound like a joke, but think about it for a minute.

Out

[Guest ThatGuy]

Anyone got the scoop on what happened to the FAIPS that did not get promoted? Were there boxes not checked or did leadership at their UPT bases not groom them enough for the promotion board? Or did the problem consist of their first duty station?

[C17Driver]

Anyone got the scoop on what happened to the FAIPS that did not get promoted? Were there boxes not checked or did leadership at their UPT bases not groom them enough for the promotion board? Or did the problem consist of their first duty station?

Many of them did not have enough (if any) performance reports in their records. The dudes impacted most sat casual for 9 months to a year, went to UPT, sat for another 4 or 5 months and then went to PIT. Some only had 1 or 2 TRs in their records which were probably 'canned', generic bullets. When they met the board, there was nothing to 'grade'.

[matmacwc]

Supposedly, the DoD is starting up "360 feedback."

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20130501/NEWS/305010023/Dempsey-360-degree-reviews-could-help-select-better-leaders

"May you live in interesting times."

Doesn't 360 mean you are right back where you started? That's about right.

[Liquid]

I agree AAD should be masked for Maj board and it should be for the next board. Hopefully there will also be specific guidance to senior raters and MLRs to not consider it. Feedback from this last Maj board was that AAD was not nearly as important as job performance, deployments, upgrades and Flt CC. You can't argue the fact that having AAD was probably a positive discriminator in the gray zone. When you are near the bottom 20% based on job performance, experience, PRF push, strats, awards, etc, every little thing helps. Getting the basics done (AAD//PME/upgrades) isn't that hard.

[Gravedigger]

Most Baseopers agree with what you are posting. However, this is a very disgruntled community of members and they don't come here to read the things they hear at work/PME from their leaders. They come here to bitch about those things.

By the way, are you Gen Welsh? I've long suspected he is a lurker. If so, when is my vector coming?

[Jaded]

Liquid, you are really good at spouting off the talking points. I bet you did really well at SOS. I would also bet you haven't been operational in a while.

[Tonka]

I got my AAD from Embry Riddle. ...I was a better officer because of what I learned from my classmates and the course.

Inconceivable, there was no flickerball or Project X how could you possibly have become a better officer?

Hoop jumpers understand the requirements for promotion defined by Big Blue and taught at many levels. If you don't want to broaden or get AAD/PME done, or accept the value of the hoops, you are in luck. ... They gambled, lost and regret it.

I seriously cannot believe that more than a few folks believe that since a promotion system is "known" or transparent to everyone it is therefore a fair and reasonable system.

By your rationale if Big Blue defines the next hoop as "Get a Phd" or "jump into the volcano", (obviously a straw man extreme to your statement, but reveals the blind-following-the-blind rationale of your statement) I better follow suit so I can get promoted... because that is the eventuality, once every officer gets an AAD (Why not require it for commissioning?), you reset the baseline. It is not about becoming a better officer... it is a lazy, ridiculous way to filter an excel spreadsheet.

PME, AAD and broadening aren't that hard to get done. Call it useless box checking or not, if you know the expectations and deliberately self eliminate or at least lessen your chance of being in the top 80% of your year group, don't bitch about it later.

Just curious, have you seen the PRF process work, actually seen it? We have metricized every possible aspect of it and removed all but a small sliver of objectiveness to it... How many PRF writers have anything besides a cursory knowledge about the people they are judging and rely solely on some exec-gather data to judge. Utilizing a binary system of criteria based only on perceived difficult-to-accomplish requirements is simply not a good judge of someone's ability to accomplish anything other than those difficult-to-accomplish requirements. Where does it stop? Instead of the Academy, ROTC, or OTS, we could simply commission folks based only on a review of their application.... As long as everyone knows what the criteria are, it's fair, right?

The top 20% of our force in every grade and AFSC are ######ing squared away, dedicated and deserve what they get.

No... all of it no.

Lets apply your logic to other industries around the world. Pro Sports: would you higher, train, or advance any athlete based on any criteria other than witnessing them performing their primary job... would you higher Tim Tebow simply because he is a good guy? Officers too have a skill that can be natural, taught, or learned and, if done correctly, judged on the merits of that skill by other capable leaders. How about Salesmen, firefighter, police officer... What type of police officer would you like promoted? The one out there learning the streets, fighting the battles, leading his folks... or the guy back at the station figuring out what score he needs, and how to maximize it to get promoted. The guy who reads about how to shoot, or the guy actually doing the shooting?

I definitely believe there is a career path for the academic-minded professional-officers to help support the leader-minded professional-officers as they lead... you can have both in the same individual, but you better be promoting to leadership position those who can actually lead, manage, and fight, not just learn.

Edit:Spelling

Edited June 7, 2013 by Tonka

[Liquid]

IMHO raters, senior raters and boards do value job performance and leadership the most. Back to my previous point, many of the disgruntled and passed over have a false sense of how good they really are. Perhaps it is because their bosses don't give them accurate feedback, perhaps because they are stupid or perhaps because they don't really know what being good at the primary job is. Stick and rudder skills are important, but self assessments of your ability to correctly perform flying duties and really get the mission done are sometimes inflated. The really good ones get latitude on AAD and DG at SOS and exec and all those other "boxes". The average and below average crew dogs may need something do distinguish their average to below average record and performance or they risk being passed over.

The sports comparison is good. Why would I promote a player I hired to be QB to management or coaching if he had no desire to be a manager or coach, didn't think like a manager or coach and wasn't qualified to be a manager or coach, as defined by the owner not a locker room vote? The athlete was hired to do a specific job. It is amusing when they delve into areas they are not good at, aren't trained for and haven't been selected to do. The sports team owner will usually tell the mouthy QB to shut the ###### up and stick to what they are good at and were hired for. If you want to be in sports team management rather than just play, dive right in. Final sports thought, the all star team is not made up of people from one position. The team can't be all pitchers or QBs. Need some linemen and defensive men. That means there will be some pissed off QBs and pitchers who think they are better athletes on the all star team. The manager knows the rules and the overall objective and places the best right fielder in right field, even if his 5th best pitcher gets his feelings hurt and complains about the criteria for selection.

[Champ Kind]

Why would I promote a player I hired to be QB to management or coaching if he had no desire to be a manager or coach, .

The problem with that logic is a player would not be potentially booted for not desiring to become a manager or coach. They would just let him play. The current "up or out" mentality in the USAF could not be any further from that.

Please disregard the "like" to your post - inadventant click when I was going for the "Quote" button. On the contrary, I find most of your blue Koolaid-chugging drivel to be quite nauseating.

[PSYCH]

Thread derail- kind of. More of like a re-rail.

I talked to someone at AFPC this morning. Basically I was bored and figured I'd ask someone about the 113 increments to Major for CY11. She didn't know of specific plans to increase the increment but said the 5 year plan (sounded official) indicated the list would exhaust 31 December. CY12 would begin to promote 1 January 14 but was scheduled for 18 months since there was no CY 13 board.

Words, words, words---Oct, Nov, Dec 13 should fatten up and finish out the Maj promotions.

[disgruntledemployee]

Rainbows and glitter

Tell ya what. List some background on yourself such as the current staff job you're doing and the exec jobs you fanagelled.

Our peers would do a much better job at picking the best leaders for promotion than our DP givers. Thats because we know the assholes playing the games, kissing ass, and maneuvering for promotion.

You know what, I really don't care what you think. And I don't see anyone else here sharing your views. Just try not to infect those around you too much.

Out.

[Trogdor]

IMHO raters, senior raters and boards do value job performance and leadership the most. Back to my previous point, many of the disgruntled and passed over have a false sense of how good they really are. Perhaps it is because their bosses don't give them accurate feedback, perhaps because they are stupid or perhaps because they don't really know what being good at the primary job is. Stick and rudder skills are important, but self assessments of your ability to correctly perform flying duties and really get the mission done are sometimes inflated. The really good ones get latitude on AAD and DG at SOS and exec and all those other "boxes". The average and below average crew dogs may need something do distinguish their average to below average record and performance or they risk being passed over.

The sports comparison is good. Why would I promote a player I hired to be QB to management or coaching if he had no desire to be a manager or coach, didn't think like a manager or coach and wasn't qualified to be a manager or coach, as defined by the owner not a locker room vote? The athlete was hired to do a specific job. It is amusing when they delve into areas they are not good at, aren't trained for and haven't been selected to do. The sports team owner will usually tell the mouthy QB to shut the ###### up and stick to what they are good at and were hired for. If you want to be in sports team management rather than just play, dive right in. Final sports thought, the all star team is not made up of people from one position. The team can't be all pitchers or QBs. Need some linemen and defensive men. That means there will be some pissed off QBs and pitchers who think they are better athletes on the all star team. The manager knows the rules and the overall objective and places the best right fielder in right field, even if his 5th best pitcher gets his feelings hurt and complains about the criteria for selection.

Dont know what community you are in, but I would imagine you either have your head in the sand or are part of the problem. Granted, I agree that many people do not have an accurate self assessment of themselves, but it is is HUGE problem when it is common knowledge that CC's upgrade guys against the advice of IP's and EP's due to ones performance at SOS. It is another problem that an obvious Q3 offense is only a slap on the wrist because a dude is one of the top 10%, when a week prior another crew dog gets shat on (Q3) for an offense that was not of same magnitude. Different standards depending where you are in the CC's strat.

The unfortunate result, continuing with your sports analogy, is that the QB with marginal performance and only a slight level of knowledge on how his position integrates with the rest of the team is promoted to manage the team. This is based on the sole fact he took some stupid course on coaching 101. He knows what some book told him about how a team integrates, but doesnt truly know how it works in reality. On the the flip side, the QB that actually knows his postion and knows how to lead the team on the field because he knows how he integrates well with not only his team, but knows how to manage his teammates individual weaknesses and strengths, gets shat on because he didnt take that same course on coaching 101.

The unfortunate result of a rated CGO today is that guys that know the mission and know how to run crews are left behind for guys who can barely manage/lead a crew because of PME/AAD. I am not saying this is the case all the time because I think the system works half of the time and good people are getting pushed. However, the system should be better at getting it right (or wrong) half the time.

[Liquid]

Trogdor, oh I'm part of the "problem." I've written/signed hundreds of PRFs and read and graded thousands. I agree with much of what you say. I would fire a commander who upgraded guys not ready due to SOS. It is not a common practice everywhere but it is obviously a problem in many places. Standards should be the same regardless of your ranking. It blows that what you describe happens. I slap (really just mentor with direct talk and profanity) the stupid ass star QB for being stubborn and blowing his leadership abilities and proven performance by refusing to do PME or AAD, effectively self eliminating. It amazes me how many people say they are willing to die for their country or be separated from their family for most of their career for their job but are absolutely unwilling to take classes and write papers. Whiney ass bitches who will be replaced when they quit or allowed to continue at their current rank with pay increases every two years. It seriously doesn't take that much time. Blog less, sleep less or watch tv less. You are naive to think you can't be a run a good crew, be a good leader and get your shit done. Stop exaggerating how painful, distaste-less and immoral taking Coaching 101 is. It is a requisite for coaching whether you like it or not.

You know what, I really don't care what you think. And I don't see anyone else here sharing your views. Just try not to infect those around you too much.

Out.

I don't give a shit what you care about. Take your infection advice and shove it up your ass.

[Karl Hungus]

Stop exaggerating how painful, distaste-less and immoral taking Coaching 101 is. It is a requisite for coaching whether you like it or not.

To continue with this stupid analogy...

You assume everyone wants to be a coach in the first place. Right now, your beloved system forces out great people who want nothing more than to be the QB their entire careers. They get penalized for daring to question the careerist path that you've chosen.

It's all good. Eventually, all the QBs will leave, and you'll be forced to play with a team full of coaches and equipment managers, wondering what the hell happened. Best of luck.

[Guest ThatGuy]

Is there not a way to find some middle ground regarding this topic?

[Vetter]

Liquid, what's your background? We're just a little curious.