Promotion and PRF Information

[CaptainMorgan]

Does anyone know what is provided to selectees in the order of merit debrief?  Is it like your #X of X and need more wing/AF level awards along with what job experiences you will need in the future etc... 

I was told no SDE pushes (my wing only gave SDE pushes to Majors who were IDE in-res complete), no jobs above the wing level (had a non-flying job early, which meant I couldn’t both go to staff and meet flying gates) and my Promote Now pushline was no good (need to have Definitely Promote, even with the Promote box checked).


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[DirkDiggler]

3 hours ago, budderbar said:

Does anyone know what is provided to selectees in the order of merit debrief?  Is it like your #X of X and need more wing/AF level awards along with what job experiences you will need in the future etc... 

If you want a (hopefully, a little dependent on the person) no shit read out of your record and where you stand get on your SR's calendar.  Ideally him/her should've gone through it prior to the board but honestly time and numbers play into this.  (They)'re leadership; part of their job is honest feedback on records. 

[ThreeHoler]

You still payback any unearned portion per the ACP agreement. I think the only caveat is medical DQ, where you stop receiving, but don’t have to pay back any.


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Not always true. Call Bob or whoever works in the ACP office…you might be able to keep it if 2x passed over and not continued.

[Shakermaker]

12 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

 

 

Not always true. Call Bob or whoever works in the ACP office…you might be able to keep it if 2x passed over and not continued.

 

 

Per AFMAN 36-3004, under the recouped payments paragraph..

3.5.3.4. Voluntary or involuntary separation due to promotion non-selection whether or not the member was offered continuation.

There are also a lot of caveats regarding med DQ, so keeping the bonus isn't always guaranteed in those situations.

Been doing a lot of homework on this since I'm about to get 2x passed over.

[ThreeHoler]

I know what the reg says. I also know if you call the dude he sometimes will approve no recoupment in cases of being 2x passed over and forced to retire/separate.


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[Nodeskjobs]

36 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

I know what the reg says. I also know if you call the dude he sometimes will approve no recoupment in cases of being 2x passed over and forced to retire/separate.


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Any chance you have a good contact number/email?

[Shakermaker]

20 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

I know what the reg says. I also know if you call the dude he sometimes will approve no recoupment in cases of being 2x passed over and forced to retire/separate.


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I took your advice and gave them a call this morning (DSN for the AvB office is on MyPers if anyone was wondering).  Apparently the reg is severely out of date.  BL, twice passed over and Palace Chase are no longer under the recoupment rules.  Even more leniency for med DQ.  

[Nodeskjobs]

2 hours ago, Shakermaker said:

I took your advice and gave them a call this morning (DSN for the AvB office is on MyPers if anyone was wondering).  Apparently the reg is severely out of date.  BL, twice passed over and Palace Chase are no longer under the recoupment rules.  Even more leniency for med DQ.  

For clarification, if you’re twice passed over, do you get to get payments that were already distributed?

 

thanks!

[08Dawg]

On 1/22/2022 at 8:00 PM, CaptainMorgan said:

I was told no SDE pushes (my wing only gave SDE pushes to Majors who were IDE in-res complete), no jobs above the wing level (had a non-flying job early, which meant I couldn’t both go to staff and meet flying gates) and my Promote Now pushline was no good (need to have Definitely Promote, even with the Promote box checked).


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I really hate how every wing has their little -isms and how that comes back to screw people. I was lucky to get an SDE push on my last OPR, but I remember the one prior (post in-res IDE looks) and the conversation was something like “he’s a major, we don’t need to put an SDE push yet” or something like that. 

[QAZqaz]

So this is my IPZ look (March). I will get passed over for not having done PME (ACSC). I'm at 16.5 years TAFMS. So my second look I will likely get passed over unless I do ACSC between now and then. At that point I will have 17.5 years in. Any risk of getting the boot before 20? Haven't heard of that in a while but just wanna make sure I am not screwing myself. I am currently on a short tour collecting gate months with a partner nation, which I think counts as "Joint credit"...whatever that means. I was told it is supposed to look good. but I still think I'm 95% Not gonna make LtCol. Just wanna make sure I can get to 20. 

[CaptainMorgan]

So this is my IPZ look (March). I will get passed over for not having done PME (ACSC). I'm at 16.5 years TAFMS. So my second look I will likely get passed over unless I do ACSC between now and then. At that point I will have 17.5 years in. Any risk of getting the boot before 20? Haven't heard of that in a while but just wanna make sure I am not screwing myself. I am currently on a short tour collecting gate months with a partner nation, which I think counts as "Joint credit"...whatever that means. I was told it is supposed to look good. but I still think I'm 95% Not gonna make LtCol. Just wanna make sure I can get to 20. 

You’re pretty much 100% without IDE. Continuation should be offered, though your Senior Rater can block it if you’re on their bad side.


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[jazzdude]

So this is my IPZ look (March). I will get passed over for not having done PME (ACSC). I'm at 16.5 years TAFMS. So my second look I will likely get passed over unless I do ACSC between now and then. At that point I will have 17.5 years in. Any risk of getting the boot before 20? Haven't heard of that in a while but just wanna make sure I am not screwing myself. I am currently on a short tour collecting gate months with a partner nation, which I think counts as "Joint credit"...whatever that means. I was told it is supposed to look good. but I still think I'm 95% Not gonna make LtCol. Just wanna make sure I can get to 20. 

AF is really picky about granting joint credit via experience, unless you're working on a partner nation HQ staff you probably won't get the joint credit approved (you have to apply for joint experience credit). Since you're collecting gate months, I'm guessing that's not the case.

Plus, joint credit via experience doesn't even show up on your DQHB for the promotion board, only JDAL position time.

[dream big]

8 hours ago, QAZqaz said:

So this is my IPZ look (March). I will get passed over for not having done PME (ACSC). I'm at 16.5 years TAFMS. So my second look I will likely get passed over unless I do ACSC between now and then. At that point I will have 17.5 years in. Any risk of getting the boot before 20? Haven't heard of that in a while but just wanna make sure I am not screwing myself. I am currently on a short tour collecting gate months with a partner nation, which I think counts as "Joint credit"...whatever that means. I was told it is supposed to look good. but I still think I'm 95% Not gonna make LtCol. Just wanna make sure I can get to 20. 

Just playing devil’s advocate, why not just knock out ACSC, at least by your second look? It wasn’t that much work, granted I knocked it out in 4 months while sitting a desk deployed.  I understand everyone has valid priorities like family but is it worth risking the chance of not being continued at 17.5 years in, so close to that check of the month stability? 

[Bigred]

9 hours ago, QAZqaz said:

So this is my IPZ look (March). I will get passed over for not having done PME (ACSC). I'm at 16.5 years TAFMS. So my second look I will likely get passed over unless I do ACSC between now and then. At that point I will have 17.5 years in. Any risk of getting the boot before 20? Haven't heard of that in a while but just wanna make sure I am not screwing myself. I am currently on a short tour collecting gate months with a partner nation, which I think counts as "Joint credit"...whatever that means. I was told it is supposed to look good. but I still think I'm 95% Not gonna make LtCol. Just wanna make sure I can get to 20. 

If I’m doing the math right, wouldn’t you be over 18 years service by the time you’d have to get out after the second look? Aka, wouldn’t you be protected by sanctuary?

[QAZqaz]

10 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

You’re pretty much 100% without IDE. Continuation should be offered, though your Senior Rater can block it if you’re on their bad side.


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Really, a senior rater can block continuation? Didn't know that.

Yeah I signed up for ACSC a few weeks ago and will try to knock it out. Even with it done, on my second look I probably won't make it, just wanna know what options I have. 

1 hour ago, Bigred said:

If I’m doing the math right, wouldn’t you be over 18 years service by the time you’d have to get out after the second look? Aka, wouldn’t you be protected by sanctuary?

TAFMS is Oct 2005. It would be close, but either way sanctuary seems to be a guard/reserve only thing from what I can see in the regs. If not, let me know what reg you found it in so I can read up on it.

[Chida]

We were talking about this 8 years ago, but sanctuary applies to regulars as well.
https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/19851-sanctuary/?tab=comments#comment-354790

[QAZqaz]

5 hours ago, Chida said:

We were talking about this 8 years ago, but sanctuary applies to regulars as well.
https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/19851-sanctuary/?tab=comments#comment-354790

Great info Chida. To be clear, I will likely have a few months shy of 18 years for my second look. So say I have 17.5 years service when I get passed over for LtCol the second time. WRT what you wrote about inactive reserve, could I still be separated? 

TAFMS October 2005

IPZ board: March 2022

APZ board: March(ish) 2023

I'm probably worried about nothing, but I want to know worst case scenario to have a plan. I would think the odds of not getting continued at 17.5 years service as an EP in a place where most of my year group went airlines would be very low, but I'm also sure stranger things have happened.

[Chida]

No one can know when the board results will be made public. If you’re in sanctuary by the time the mandatory DOS happens you are safe. Mandatory DOS is ‘public release + 6 months.’


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[Bigred]

5 hours ago, QAZqaz said:

Great info Chida. To be clear, I will likely have a few months shy of 18 years for my second look. So say I have 17.5 years service when I get passed over for LtCol the second time. WRT what you wrote about inactive reserve, could I still be separated? 

TAFMS October 2005

IPZ board: March 2022

APZ board: March(ish) 2023

I'm probably worried about nothing, but I want to know worst case scenario to have a plan. I would think the odds of not getting continued at 17.5 years service as an EP in a place where most of my year group went airlines would be very low, but I'm also sure stranger things have happened.

If you are past the 18 year mark, even if that’s at the second fail to select + 7 months, you are inside sanctuary and are guaranteed to get 20. It’s your total time at the date of separation that matters. 

[Standby]

Can anybody show me the reg/reference for sanctuary? I’m vaguely recalling O-5s at the 18yrish mark getting the boot. 

[Chida]

Literally it’s 5 posts up.
But on another note: I’d consider all this to be beside the point b/c there’s no way the AF will not continue someone who is just shy of 18 yrs at 2xFOS+6 mos. I know it happened to a bunch of Majors awhile ago in the 2012 force shaping or somesuch, but the AF is bleeding people at the top right now, so don’t worry about it. And if you do make it to sanctuary doubly don’t worry about it (b/c you’re protected).

[Shakermaker]

On 1/28/2022 at 7:32 PM, dream big said:

Just playing devil’s advocate, why not just knock out ACSC, at least by your second look? It wasn’t that much work, granted I knocked it out in 4 months while sitting a desk deployed.  I understand everyone has valid priorities like family but is it worth risking the chance of not being continued at 17.5 years in, so close to that check of the month stability? 

Was this done before ASU started running the program?  I ask because with the way they run the proctored classes now it would be very difficult to get it done in 4 months, if even possible, due to how the pre-reqs for the follow on classes is structured currently.  

[Shakermaker]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:41 AM, Nodeskjobs said:

For clarification, if you’re twice passed over, do you get to get payments that were already distributed?

 

thanks!

My understanding is you are not responsible to pay back any un-earned bonus payments in this situation.  I would call the AvB office though and give them your specific situation and they will be able to advise you with the most current guidance.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Shakermaker
I suck at grammar

[Nodeskjobs]

5 hours ago, Shakermaker said:

My understanding is you are not responsible to pay back any un-earned bonus payments in this situation.  I would call the AvB office though and give them your specific situation and they will be able to advise you with the most current guidance.

You are correct, with a small caveat. I just spoke with the office. Her response:  “If you are twice passed over, and have already received your annual payment, there will be no recoupment of the unearned portion IF you separate on the MSD established by the board. Her understanding is if I elect to retire 1ish month after the board results, I would require a SAF waiver

[Tommy]

When I was passed over the first time there was a doc on MyPERs that stated that certain AFSCs are in high demand and will be given continuation. So if you’re worried I’d try to find that doc for a warm fuzzy. I think it’s in the promotion section.
 

I’m not a fan of how the AF doesn’t give you continuation until the second time you’re passed over as it puts you in limbo for a year or so. With that said IF you do get passed over again AND not offered continuation I think you should be able to piece together an AD retirement in the guard/reserves as you only will have 2.5 years to go… someone please correct me if I’m wrong. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lifer