Customs and courtesies

[Jughead]

Since I have not had to do it lately...what is the rule on saluting like the Wing King if he/she is driving by and lets say you are walking in the parking lot....do you salute the car if it has the fancy bird hanging off the grill??

What do you suppose the odds are that that exact situation is covered in the "salute" reg that has already been cited twice in this thread alone?

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/medi.../AFI34-1201.pdf

[BQZip01]

ETA: Anyone find they don't expect officer rank on BDU/ABU's anymore? I almost missed an O-4 a couple weeks ago because he had all subdued rank on his BDU's and his cover, and I rarely see officers in anything but blues or bags.

I used to wear subdued rank on my BDUs, but, given the perspective, I wasn't harsh on anyone who didn't salute. I might call them aside, but I wouldn't berate them in front of their peers/subordinates/superiors.

On a related topic, you are a DOUCHE!!! if you smack ANYONE around for not saluting at night. Shame on you. It can be REALLY hard to see that rank in unlit areas.

[BQZip01]

Short answer is NO.

Longer answer is that the salute IS the greeting--not the "nod and wave." You may be thinking of the verbal part of the greeting, wherein you obviously need to be within audible greeting distance. Relevant AFI passages below.

Bottom line, the junior greets the senior by way of salute. Your "across the parking lot" example is perfect--if you're across the parking lot & not interacting, then no, the salute doesn't make sense. However, if you've recognized each other (and you clearly have, both in your example and in Mutt's), the junior is obligated to salute the senior. Your "6 paces" is a reasonable rule of thumb for when to initiate when approaching a senior officer, but it can't cover all situations.

AFI 34-1201, "Protocol," 4 Oct 06 (already cited earlier in this thread, if you look back), in relevant part:

8.1. Hand Salutes.

8.1.1. The hand salute is the form of greeting and recognition exchanged between persons in the

armed services. All Air Force personnel in uniform are required to salute when they encounter any

person or situation entitled to the salute.

8.1.1.1. When the salute is rendered to another person, the junior member initiates the salute

accompanied with an appropriate verbal greeting, e.g., Good Morning, Sir/Ma’am.” Salute and

extend the verbal greeting at a distance at which recognition is easy and audible. Offer your salute

early enough to allow the senior time to return it and extend a verbal greeting before you pass. All

salutes received when in uniform shall be returned; at other times, salutes received shall be appropriately

acknowledged.

8.1.3. A member not in formation but in uniform, salutes as follows:

NOTE: Rendering/returning salutes is not required if either or both are in civilian attire or have their

hands full; however, a greeting such as good morning sir/ma’am” is appropriate.

Who

United States Air Force Officers Senior in Rank

Where

Outdoors

Salute When

When recognized by the junior member

It states how to salute and when to return a salute, not when to give one.

The "six steps" comes from the parade guide which is, by definition, a more formal setting.

General advice and other services show this is a common practice.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UB5i40J-A...lt&resnum=6

http://books.google.com/books?id=cxW9F2B__...lt&resnum=1

http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/2dfssg/med/files/102.htm

In short, use 6 paces as a general guideline. If you have a policy outside that, go ahead, but make sure people know before you berate them. If you aren't good at estimating paces, wait until you are well inside of 3 paces before stating anything. If someone makes a mistake, correct them, but do it quietly and not to embarrass them. If it happens again, find out where they work and talk to their superior. If it happens a third time, talk to their flight commander/commander and let your commander know what is going on.

[Jughead]

It states how to salute and when to return a salute, not when to give one.

Disagreed.

As I quoted, "All Air Force personnel in uniform are required to salute when they encounter any person or situation entitled to the salute" (para 8.1.1), and "Salute When: When recognized by the junior member" (para 8.1.3).

The sources you cite are undoubtedly good ones, but they are not official guidance--putting them squarely in the "good advice"/"rule of thumb" category. [This is exactly rotorhead's point, IIUC.]

Personally, I don't understand why this is difficult...??? Everything we've discussed so far falls squarely within everything I've been taught and have seen since Day 1, all the way back to my ROTC days. I can't recall having seen this reg since that time, but nothing in it caught me by surprise.... I saw a reference in one of your linked sources to AFMAN 36-2203, so, what the hell, I took a look at that as well. Nothing in there to change anything that's been said here. Most applicable passage is para 3.6.1, in relevant part: "To prescribe an exact distance for all circumstances is not practical, but good judgment indicates when salutes should be exchanged."

[Herk Driver]

Comment was meant in general. It seems that everyone has issues w/ either the reflective belt policy, PT "uniform", or any other of the hundred policies that are out there or coming down. At a certain point, people need to realize that it is futile to B*tch, whine and moan about it, and its better to accept it and move on. There will always be Shoes out there who's sole job it is to enforce these policies, or even worse, hunt down someone of possibly higher rank to make sure that these policies are enforced (even if it is customs and courtesies). They also need to remember all the BS that they are passing through right now, and try not to repeat it when they get to a postion w/ influence. A prior E Spooky guy that I worked w/ taught me that policies need to be enforced, but its how you do it that will determine if the troops will follow it. My appologies for venting in the wrong forum...I guess I owe the rounds

In relation to the topic at hand of customs and courtesy,

My personal situation that I passed through was TDY at Lackland as a brandnew 2Lt. While walking throught he parking lot near Defense Language Inst, I made eye contace w/ an O-6 who was approx about 50+ yards away. I acknowledged him by nodding my head and saying "Sir". Short of a full run, he ordered me to stop and stand at attention. For about 10 min, he proceeded to chew every bit of my ass for not presenting the proper customs and courties. He took my unit information and contacted my O-5. That same day I get a call from my boss. The beauty of it is that he thought the O-6 was a total assclown and reminded me to keep my SA at LAFB. From that point on I always followed the "when is doubt, whip it out" rule.

Mutt

OK, understand. A friend of mine recently wrote something that made me think twice. For evil to flourish all it takes is good men to be silent. Don't be silent.

I'm not saying that everything here is evil, but there is certainly some ass-clownery going on. Bitching and moaning won't stop it, but my goal is the same as yours. It'sto get through to some that will be the leaders soon so that they won't follow the same path.

The problem as I see it is that Wing/CC's, etc have more important things to worry about so when E-9 whoever shoves a policy letter about uniform wear in front of him, he probably just signs it. It's such low-hanging fruit that they probably could care less.

[ExBoneOSO]

Revival, but in a bit of a different direction.

I wish to display my state flag and the American flag on my porch. I know the American flag should be displayed slightly higher than the other, but is there a correct position? IE, should it be to the right or left of the state flag?

Thanks!

~NH

From Google..

"When the U.S. flag and state flag are flown from a single flagstaff, the U. S. flag should be displayed from the peak position with the state flag immediately below it. The state flag should be approximately the same size as, but never larger than, the U.S. flag.

When the state flag and the U.S. flag are displayed on separate flagpoles, the flagpoles should be of equal height and the state flag should be approximately the same size as, but never larger than, the U.S. flag. The U.S. flag should be flown from the position of honor on the flag's own right, or from the flagpole on the left as normally viewed by the observer. The state flag should be flown from the second position of honor, or from the flagpole on the right as normally viewed by the observer."

I knew about flying the US flag higher than the state flag, and that the state flag can't be bigger, but didn't know it mattered what side the flag should be on with separate flagpoles. Learn something new every day I suppose..!

[contraildash]

Thread revival.

I grew up with the understanding that no matter the service, you salute officers of higher rank when in passing, ect. On my base, all services are represeted, and there is a large Army contingent in the region.

Recently I've been noticing that when I greet Army officers, they act suprised, indifferent, and in one case pissed. I also can't recall the last time an enlisted soldier or WO has rendered a salute, I can't figure out what's with the attitude. It's not just me either. I've recently been witness to a Major and Captian chewing out some rando enlisted Army guys. I've never experienced this with Navy or Marine folks.

It looks pretty pathetic when you have these things going on in front of the KMCC 'bio-dome' for everyone to see. Even more so it's embarrasing when other NATO members are around.

[Herk Driver]

Your understanding would be correct. I was recently on a joint staff and never really had this issue. I will tell you though that a female Army officer that I worked with got pissed about the way in which people greeted her. It had to be Good morning/afternoon/evening, Ma'am and nothing else or she would pull people aside and give them an ear full.

[Guest Crew Report]

It's not just you, I've chewed out junior ranking Soldiers before for not saluting AF Officers. I guess they feel if they aren't in your branch they don't give a shit.

When I was a junior Enlisted Airman I was chewed out by a Marine Captain for saluting him when I was at Ali Al Salem. Different culture while deployed and in garrison.

[Hacker]

The irony of it all...

The last time I ran into any "customs and courtesies" issue was at Bagram, and it was with an Army 1Lt and some kind of senior NCO.

I was in my AF PT gear walking to the chow hall, and walked past said 1Lt and Senior NCO. As I passed them, the NCO said (to nobody in particular, but loud enough to make it obvious that I was the target), "I guess they don't salute OFFICERS in the Air Force any more!".

I stopped walking...pondered for a second if they were actually talking to me, and when I turned around they were both staring at me as if expecting me to genuflect and apologize to this obviously disrespected Army officer. Then, I thought, 'naaah...can't be ME they're talking to...why would they assume that I was either enlisted or a 2Lt?'

Regardless, I fished my ID card out, walked up smartly to the senior NCO and held it about 4 inches from his eyeballs, saying, "No...in the Air Force, we don't salute officers that are two ranks lower than we are."

I wish there were a better slam-dunk end to the story, but what really happened was the NCO's sails deflated, he sheepishly said, "oh, sorry sir," saluted, and turned around to walk away.

I've never had any problem with any enlisted folks outside the AF, actually. It's the Airmen in our very own blue service who all seem to think we're all equal, regardless of what we're wearing on our sleeves or collars/epaulets. The ones who feel they need to shout at me across the parking lot that it's against the uniform reg to have my flight suit sleeves pushed up....

[Skitzo]

Funny story here regarding c&c. Recently in Columbus GA, walking through the mall to the food court with some bros to get some Chik-Fil-A because we had a last minute schedule change and everyone really wanted it. As we are walking I hear a "zip up yo zippas." I continue walking and think to myself WTF. I turn around to see a homeboy dressed in his ghetto best and I say "excuse me." He says, zip up all of your zippas." I look down and I see I have neglected to zip my leg zippers on my flight suit. Big deal, I approach and say "what?" The young guy says "you need to zip all of your zippers." I say "noted," and carry on, leaving my leg zippers fully undone. Seriously, I've been REMFed while deployed at least at that point we are all military to be REMFed in public, I was really taken aback. If I wasn't fearful that he might have been packing it might have got more heated.

[StoleIt]

I have found the Army is much better at C&C than the USAF.

And they don't have any problems with the 2LT and 1LT. They all know they are just LT's and don't give a fuck. Wish the AF could figure that one out...

[busdriver]

I never understood the hangup on saluting. It's kind of like the military version of waving, it's just how we greet one another. It's not like you're not saluting back, the lower rank just initiates it. Granted, I have told the LPA to stop calling me sir (I'm a Capt) so take that for what it's worth. Hell I don't care if our back-enders call me by my callsign (most actually go with Capt callsign), I know if I tell them I need you to do X it'll get done, we do generally have a shit-hot group of enlisted folks working in Rescue.

[Guest Flyinrock]

New guy and having problems with posting. Old story about a legendary Marine, Chesty Puller, in his staff car, saw an enlisted Marine saluting a young officer over and over. Chesty stopped ans asked what was going on.The young Lt said the enlisted Marine hadn't shown proper courtesy and had failed to salute properly so he was teaching him a lesson with 100 salutes.

Chesty said that was proper but each salute required a response and the young Lt was to return each of the salutes. Leadership at its finest.

God Bless Ya Chesty wherever you are on the USMC birthday.

Semper fi

Rocky

[spudsmac]

Funny story here regarding c&c. Recently in Columbus GA, walking through the mall to the food court with some bros to get some Chik-Fil-A because we had a last minute schedule change and everyone really wanted it. As we are walking I hear a "zip up yo zippas." I continue walking and think to myself WTF. I turn around to see a homeboy dressed in his ghetto best and I say "excuse me." He says, zip up all of your zippas." I look down and I see I have neglected to zip my leg zippers on my flight suit. Big deal, I approach and say "what?" The young guy says "you need to zip all of your zippers." I say "noted," and carry on, leaving my leg zippers fully undone. Seriously, I've been REMFed while deployed at least at that point we are all military to be REMFed in public, I was really taken aback. If I wasn't fearful that he might have been packing it might have got more heated.

I'm from Columbus and know exactly where you're talking about. Probably best for everyone that you didn't mouth off back to him.

[baileynme]

Out here in Altus I had an interesting C+C moment. Walking out of a briefing in the theater I was walking a few steps behind an O-5. Two NCOs walk right in front of him without anything so much as a formal greeting. The O-5 gets in his car and less than two steps later, two pipeline boomers walk in front of me (a lowly O-2) and render sharp salutes with greetings. Leave it to pipeline guys to actually follow C+C, good on 'em.

[Guest gonzo]

Slight hijack, but a salute shitstorm waiting to go down...

Kandahar is under new management( 10th Mtn, I believe). Being a NATO base, it has been a no salute base for quite some time. Someone decided that it needs to be a salute base again, which in itself would become a nightmare, making going to the boardwalk pretty much impossible without arm fatigue setting in. The real kicker is what was attached to the email telling everyone about the new salute policy: a chart with the rank of every NATO country on it. Guess it's time to brush up on that. It's gonna be a long 6 months...

[stract]

Gonzo -

We got word about 10 hrs ago that saluting went away after a week of no one doing it since the new "standards" came out...so no worries on all the other countries' ranks anymore! We had a guy salute an Army MAJ the other day and get yelled at for rendering a salute...I guess common sense finally prevailed.

[Guest gonzo]

Just got that email. Thank god. If I had to salute a French guy, I'd yak right there.

[M2]

No one salutes in NATO, except for Americans saluting other Americans...

[Guest Crew Report]

Out here in Altus I had an interesting C+C moment. Walking out of a briefing in the theater I was walking a few steps behind an O-5. Two NCOs walk right in front of him without anything so much as a formal greeting. The O-5 gets in his car and less than two steps later, two pipeline boomers walk in front of me (a lowly O-2) and render sharp salutes with greetings. Leave it to pipeline guys to actually follow C+C, good on 'em.

What's even more interesting is you not correcting the NCO's as a Officer who witnessed it.

[baileynme]

What's even more interesting is you not correcting the NCO's as a Officer who witnessed it.

Yes, in hindsight, myself, or the O-5 even, should have said something, I admit I fell into the category of "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem".

[HuggyU2]

No one salutes in NATO, except for Americans saluting other Americans...

That may be true...

but I certainly hope that we never baseline OUR standards on anything done by NATO.

[LockheedFix]

Out here in Altus I had an interesting C+C moment. Walking out of a briefing in the theater I was walking a few steps behind an O-5. Two NCOs walk right in front of him without anything so much as a formal greeting. The O-5 gets in his car and less than two steps later, two pipeline boomers walk in front of me (a lowly O-2) and render sharp salutes with greetings. Leave it to pipeline guys to actually follow C+C, good on 'em.

I always thought walking out of the base theater after a mass briefing was an unofficial no salute zone. It's just a mob of various ranks walking in thirty different directions. If everybody was saluting everyone they were supposed to, you'd just keep your salute up with your head on a swivel all the way to your car. Ridiculous.

Gonzo -

We got word about 10 hrs ago that saluting went away after a week of no one doing it since the new "standards" came out...so no worries on all the other countries' ranks anymore! We had a guy salute an Army MAJ the other day and get yelled at for rendering a salute...I guess common sense finally prevailed.

Thank God they changed that. I don't understand why every time there is a change of command at the top at these giant joint bases that the new guy feels he needs to set the tone by upping the queep. Best change I've seen after a change of command was at Ali Al Salem when the new WG/CC came in ('07, I think) and GOT RID OF REFLECTIVE BELTS everywhere but the flight line. And no one got hit by a car in the chow hall the whole time!

Edited November 21, 2010 by LockheedFix

[Bender]

Sorry for the thread revival but I got "Chiefed" by a young female 2Lt about 3 hrs ago. My back was turned and I heard "Airman.......Airman" and I didn't bother looking since it's been about 12 yrs since having that directed at me. When I did turn she then corrected me on the wear of my Flight Cap. She seems to read the reg that it has to be straight all the way down, when in all reality it says straight with the nose. And then she stood there waiting for a salute, so I move the all the things I was carrying to one hand and render a salute. This sort of thing hasn't happened to me in years, it just took me by surprise. Might be time to go. Too bad TERA wasn't offered to MSgt booms.

It has to be what, what? Our new thing is waiting until your outside in the cold to put on your hat...the shit never ends. A PRU Lt, eh? I wonder what a PRU Lt does all day...

Also of worthless rank...although I don't seem to have any trouble finding useful things to do with my time/energy without harassing MSgts about their crooked caps.

Who the fuck are these people? I can't even think about this anymore...although I did enjoy the re-read of the "Herk Derka Cunt Cap". That guy...

Bendy