FLEA Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 Rumor bill on the book of faces is that AvB will come 2 months late and will only be offered in 5+ year options. Totally kills any possibility of me staying.
FLEA Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 5 hours ago, Guardian said: Active or active guard and reserve? Just active as far as I know. Apparently the comments were made by the 18AF/CC in a town hall with folks from McGuire. It was discussed on the MAF FB page.
BADFNZ Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 The AF would be stupid to offer anything less than 5 years knowing the airlines aren't going to be hiring for at least a couple years. And I bet their 5-year bonus will have record take rates.
SurelySerious Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 14 minutes ago, BADFNZ said: The AF would be stupid to offer anything less than 5 years knowing the airlines aren't going to be hiring for at least a couple years. And I bet their 5-year bonus will have record take rates. I’ve seen a pretty decent amount of AF people getting picked up by UPS/FedEx/Atlas. I think that while people are staying in for now, they seem to want to keep their options open, so I don’t see them taking 5 years at a significantly higher rate than before. 1
FLEA Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, BADFNZ said: The AF would be stupid to offer anything less than 5 years knowing the airlines aren't going to be hiring for at least a couple years. And I bet their 5-year bonus will have record take rates. I don't plan to take it and still plan to get out next year. Granted I wrote the airlines off a while ago. But COVID actually drove me out of the organization with more furry than before. Watching the total ineptness of leadership able to deal with this crises, and then just putting it back onto troops to suck it up and make it work, has made me realize no one in this organization has any interest in your or your family's well-being. Get out while you can. 1
SocialD Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 2 hours ago, BADFNZ said: The AF would be stupid to offer anything less than 5 years knowing the airlines aren't going to be hiring for at least a couple years. That's not a known right now and I'd expect to see a few of them hiring next year, possibly later this year, though I'm skeptical on that. Either way, here's hoping they keep the shorter bonuses for the ARC, as many can not commit 5+ year bonuses. 1
Longhorn15 Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 I was thinking about taking a 3 year bonus, which would take me past 20 by a little bit. If 5 years is the min, I’m definitely gone at 20. The extra $35K/yr makes a big difference in the calculus. With it, I make more with the AF than with Atlas, without it, I’ll take my chances.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
FLEA Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) Quote Happy Saturday all, Reference the aviation bonus, a couple of thoughts. - I don’t know of any talk of eliminating the bonus altogether across the board, but don’t be surprised if it changes in some way. - Congress has a keen interest in the program and we’re required to justify/submit a business case analysis every year. They’re the ones who give us the money, so their opinion matters a lot. - I’m not sure exactly when the program will be announced but I don’t think it will be too much longer - believe it is in final coordination now. - I don’t know anyone at the GO level who thinks of COVID as a gift, is happy about the effect on the airlines or believes that the temporary spike in retention is anything more than that...temporary. I’m personally hoping and praying for a speedy end to all of this and I see no upside for the Air Force, not even retention, from what’s happening to our nation because of COVID. A few personal thoughts for your consideration - biased by my age, rank and experience of course: - Whether you decide to stay or go, I know that I speak for all the GOs when I say we appreciate your service and we respect your choice. My fondest hope is that you make the decision that’s best for you and your family. I want you to have a good life, and if that means you stay, that’s great. I’ve never tried to convince anyone to stay in the Air Force and I won’t start now. This isn’t easy and it gets harder the longer you stay, though I think the rewards are greater the longer you stay as well. Make no mistake, the coming years will be increasingly challenging. I can’t think of a worse scenario than staying because of the money. - You probably know all you need to know to make a good decision that’s best for you and your family. You’ve been with us awhile. You’ve seen the good, the bad and the ugly, along with a wide array of efforts and initiatives. Over to you to weigh the effort and decide the merits of the organization and the value proposition. - This isn’t the NFL, and we don’t have ‘free agents’ - we have commissioned officers whose commitment is expiring and who have a choice to make regarding future service. The oath of office is the contract you really need to carefully consider whether to renew- it’s a more expensive contract than anything the NFL can offer. - If you’re waiting on the bonus to decide whether you should continue to risk your life and ask your family to sacrifice for your country, you might want to re-think it. If the decision hinges on the money for you at this point, let me assure you that no amount of money is worth your life or the long term health of your family. If you’re worried about the sudden changes in the outside world, I can assure you the airlines will be back sooner than we think and you’ll do great if you go that route or pursue something else. - The Air Force isn’t perfect, but I think there’s never been a better time to serve. I’m proud of the efforts we’re making to get better every day. It’s a great way of life and your service matters to our nation. If you disagree, the bonus won’t be the thing that changes your mind. - If you like being part of a team that’s full of amazing people you can trust and who trust you, if you like being part of something bigger than yourself, if you believe the nation has real problems and real enemies and our future depends on having people who will put the nation first, and if your family enjoys serving too, you should consider staying. Best of luck to all of you! Cheers, Pulse Maj Gen Craig Wells on MAF FB. Edited January 30, 2021 by FLEA
SocialD Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 29 minutes ago, FLEA said: Maj Gen Craig Wells on MAF FB. Sooooo....the rumors are true then?
slackline Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 30 minutes ago, FLEA said: Maj Gen Craig Wells on MAF FB. Don't know the guy, so no clue if he's genuine or not, but those are some great words at least. Regardless of his sincerity, people thinking about staying need to pay heed to the message.
SocialD Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, Phase4 said: Can someone explain this like I’m 5? "You're probably not going to like the new bonus, so do it for god and country...because gosh darn it, we care for you..." 1 1 2
Homestar Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 13 minutes ago, SocialD said: "You're probably not going to like the new bonus, so do it for god and country...because gosh darn it, we care for you..." Well actually..... What he said was more along the lines of “the AF probably isn’t going to satisfy you if you’re looking to maximize income. Make the best decision for you and your family. Whatever you decide, thank you for your service.” 2
FLEA Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 In any case, I think its a pretty fair warning that the bonus is going to be significantly lower than expected, or the options will be very limited. I was already 95% set on getting out, so really this doesn't effect me much.
SocialD Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Homestar said: Well actually..... What he said was more along the lines of “the AF probably isn’t going to satisfy you if you’re looking to maximize income. Make the best decision for you and your family. Whatever you decide, thank you for your service.” Meh, 10 years ago SocialD might have agreed with you. After your initial commitment, it can all be boiled down to compensation, either the money they're paying is worth putting up with the BS, or it's not. He would have been better off just saying, the bonus is coming out soon, whether you decide to stay or leave, thank you for your service...the end. No need for the Dad talk. 3
slackline Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 36 minutes ago, SocialD said: Meh, 10 years ago SocialD might have agreed with you. After your initial commitment, it can all be boiled down to compensation, either the money they're paying is worth putting up with the BS, or it's not. He would have been better off just saying, the bonus is coming out soon, whether you decide to stay or leave, thank you for your service...the end. No need for the Dad talk. I disagree, with the caveat that it only matters if he's being genuine. We need leaders that talk more from a place of genuine care for the Airmen. Someone who explains a thought process will get more respect and buy-in than a GO who has a chance to talk to people and takes the tack you just laid out. 1
FLEA Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, slackline said: I disagree, with the caveat that it only matters if he's being genuine. We need leaders that talk more from a place of genuine care for the Airmen. Someone who explains a thought process will get more respect and buy-in than a GO who has a chance to talk to people and takes the tack you just laid out. I think leaders want to be genuine but the fact is they would round up your children and murder them if it guaranteed air dominance in the 21st century. Sounds wild, I know, but the truth is, the AF (as an organization) gives 0 fucks about your family. They don't care if they are happy, sad, accompanied, non-accompanied, working, not working, alive, dead, etc... Here's the thing, they've written hundreds of books on negotiation, and found out they didnt work well for government employees working with international partners/etc.... The reason why was because the fundamentals of government negotiation are different than business. In business, you can walk away. In government, you often work in a "no-fail" environment where walking away isn't an option. The USAF can't just pack up our junk and leave Korea because the Koreans won't give us more airspace to train in. Etc... The same thought process works with the compensation/pilot bonus/morale/retention/etc... the Air Force believes they have a "no-fail" mission. They will literally throw lines of people into cockpits to crash planes just to guarantee the mission. They have 0 fucks. Maj Craig Wells as a person may care about you and your family, but as an AF officer, he gives 0 fucks and he will not hesitate to fuck you six ways from Sunday to guarantee mission success, even if it drags your spouse and child under too. In this case, I'm sure they'd give you more money to stay if they could. But I think he is hinting that congress isn't going to bite in an environment where they are passing laws to keep airlines afloat. So they're going to give you what they can, and if you choose the door, your choice. In the mean time, they will fuck whoever they need to that stays to make sure the mission still happens. Once you realize this, you can really make the decision whether you want to stay or not. Edited January 31, 2021 by FLEA 3
Guardian Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 100% the attitude and opinions of General David “Fingers” Goldfien. Which is why he is such a PC people pleasing S$!/ bag.
Homestar Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Patton gave zero fucks. I’m not saying some AETC general is like Patton, or that the pilot shortage is WWII. We pay our generals to win wars full stop. I don’t want some candy-ass general who cares about my feels. I want a killer with zero fucks to give when the shit hits the fan. Also, I want a $75k/year bonus. Edited January 31, 2021 by Homestar 3 3
jazzdude Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 Patton gave zero s. I’m not saying some AETC general is like Patton, or that the pilot shortage is WWII. We pay our generals to win wars full stop. I don’t want some candy-ass general who cares about my feels. I want a killer with zero s to give when the shit hits the fan. Also, I want a $75k/year bonus. Generals can't win wars if there's no one around to fight the wars. That problem gets harder when the fighting force is all volunteer, and draft is pretty much off the table.
Motofalcon Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 “I can’t think of a worse scenario than staying because of the money.“ Isn’t...isn’t that the point of the bonus? It’s an incentive to get people to stay who otherwise would leave? The stay/leave pro-con scales are tipped just enough and they literally stay for the money? 2 1
SocialD Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 10 hours ago, slackline said: Someone who explains a thought process will get more respect and buy-in than a GO who has a chance to talk to people and takes the tack you just laid out. His "chance to talk," was a random, unannounced FB post. None of this impacts me, I'm just calling like I've seen it go down so many times over my career. His post reads like he knows (or thinks) it's not going to be well received and is trying to get ahead of it. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised. 9 hours ago, Homestar said: Patton gave zero fucks. We pay our generals to win wars full stop. Patton would be fired 10x over in todays overly PC military, likely after he told his bosses we're fighting this war like a bunch of idiots. If we're paying our generals to win wars, we should probably take some of that money back. 1
FLEA Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 Quote XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, great questions! Some thoughts below. If I have to say 3 words, it’s “Airmen are awesome”. Three paragraphs disguised as bullets: - Airmen are amazing. The longer you stay, the more you get to meet and the more impressed you’ll be. There are some flat out incredible humans in our force, and they will inspire you. - Flying airplanes is hard, but it’s not the hardest or most rewarding thing you’ll ever do. Learning more about what it takes to accomplish the mission, developing skills beyond the cockpit, harnessing the efforts of bigger or more diverse teams engaged in complex undertakings..it’s really cool. It’s way more satisfying to see one of your Airmen achieve something than it is to achieve a personal milestone. I was a Sq/CC once upon a time in a strange land at 0300 watching a brand new MR Lieutenant rolling down the runway in the dark with a 3-bag, 8 missile jet (that’s heavyweight for small jet people). He was the alert spare and was going single ship at night to find the tanker, get gas and rejoin with his flight lead in a strange country on a real world mission. I knew he was well trained and knew what to do. It was cool to see all of the efforts of our squadron rolled up in that one dude. You may think it corny but I’ll never forget how it felt to watch it and know I had a part in it. - The country needs us. It’s a hard mission and I’ve seen enough to know that victory and prosperity is not assured. It is personally and professionally satisfying for me to be engaged in a career that is based on public service. If my framework was “I am a pilot” I probably would have left a long time ago. My framework is “I am an officer trained as a pilot.” Maybe old fashioned but it makes me happy. Equally important, my family finds value in our service too. My WHY has changed a lot in some ways and not much in others. I sometimes say “I came for the airplanes and I stayed because of the Airmen”. It’s not totally accurate, but it’s close. When you’re young, the hardware occupies a lot of your attention...the longer you’re around you tend to see more of the picture. Along the way, every time I was about to get out, some new opportunity or fresh perspective came along. Once it was just my DO telling me he thought I had potential...it totally changed my perspective. Make no mistake, we’re all constantly weighing the cost/benefit. This may be a life of service, but we all have to make sure our lives are in some sort of harmony. I’ve had moments of frustration like all of you, and there are still things that happen that drive me nuts. When I was a Colonel, my 2-star boss told me “this is only about service at this point. You need to decide whether you want to continue to serve. Once you figure that out, it will get easier.” He was right. That doesn’t mean we all need to be AirPower monks....the end of the line is out there for all of us and my day isn’t far off. Frankly, this isn’t a good fit for everyone, and that’s plenty ok. I’m still in because I still find value in the proposition..and am lucky that the AF still sees value in my continued service Some more of his exposition. He was responding to these two questions: Quote 1) Can you give me 3 words or bullets that describe the rewards after the 10 year commitment point? 2) What is your WHY for staying? Did your why change at any point of service? Back to my prior post though, a key theme in his responses is this is not a negotiation. You are either going to take the commitment, or you or not. The AF is going to truck on with or without you, but he personally will be sorry to see you go.
jazzdude Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 The AF has done a poor job messaging that we are valued and needed to accomplish the AF mission.The message went from "go ahead and leave, someone will be there to replace you" to "make the best choice for you and your family, the service will find a way to continue, and thanks for your service."I posit that essentially, the AF message hasn't changed, just the language got kinder. They both resign the service to not having to tell us they want or need us to stay ("I'm not going to try and convince you to stay"), which points directly to us not being valued by the service.I don't remember at any point the AF saying during the pilot manning crisis "we need you. We need you to stay because we value your experience and your ideas. Our country needs you. But my words don't mean anything without actions, so here's what we are going to do to show you the service values you." Of course, that also has to be followed up with actual action, or it undercuts the credibility of the GOs, and pushes people out. That's not to say there's been no improvements to show the AF might care about our value you as an individual. Probably the biggest improvements are the MyVector assignment bidding process (better communication of assignment desires and visibility on what is available your vml cycle), and the ability to turn down school without prejudice. Both do give individuals more say in their careers, which may help them decide to stay in. The bonus is still there, though it seems to lag by 2+ years to what's needed, and probably is too low to push people over the fence, so partial credit there (I'd give it a D-).Yes, a military career will probably net you less money than going to the airlines. But it's a similar problem with other fields out in the civilian sector. For example, someone working at a non-profit versus at a for-profit organization where they could make more money. What drives them to take the lower paying job? Likely, a sense of purpose and mission gets them there, and a sense of accomplishment and the organization valuing their efforts keeps them there. Another example at the extreme is volunteering (like Habitat for Humanity): here there's no pay, yet people participate, sometimes with large chunks of their time? So what motivated them to work for free, and continue to do so? Again, my guess is a sense of mission, pride in that mission, and the organizers valuing and encouraging their participation.That's not to say pay doesn't matter. It's much easier to stay when you can pay your mortgage, take care of your family, and have money leftover to pursue what you want (hobbies, travel, toys, side businesses/investments, opportunities for your kids, etc).This article was posted somewhere here several years ago, but it's still relevant today and I think with reposting. It's a blog by a former RAF fighter pilot turned motivational speaker/consultant and it's his take on pilot shortage in the RAF, and his take on why pilots leave the RAF. https://www.fastjetperformance.com/blog/when-pilots-quit-why-we-must-stop-telling-people-they-are-valued-unless-we-truly-value-them 1
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