The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[slc]

24 minutes ago, arg said:

And OJ was found not guilty. A lot of folks don't believe that.

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!!!!!!!

[busdriver]

7 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

He was not legally armed. It is illegal to carry a firearm while under influence of drugs.

Castile said he had a weapon and then reached for it despite being told not to.

As I said, "but otherwise legally armed." 

His weapon and his ID were co-located, which he expressed.  I went back and re-watched the video, for whatever reason I thought he had said that, but didn't see it.  

I don't think he is guilty of murder.  I think he could have led that situation to a better outcome.  My personal opinion is as an armed agent of the state, that is his responsibility.  I understand that the law doesn't support my opinion, it is just my opinion.

Castile clearly fucked up by not telling the cop where his wallet was located.  He could have done better to not get himself killed, but he is not an armed agent of the state.

I get that it's a hard job and their life is potentially on the line, I get that demanding perfection is unrealistic.  I get that cops are not evil assholes trying to fuck up people's lives.  But they are armed agents of the state, they should have a higher level of responsibility. 

Officer safety has been used as rationale for changes that help cops and not the public for a very long time.  I've seen the attitude among family and friends that are police officers.

[Buddy Spike]

On 2/15/2021 at 7:43 PM, busdriver said:

As I said, "but otherwise legally armed." 

His weapon and his ID were co-located, which he expressed.  I went back and re-watched the video, for whatever reason I thought he had said that, but didn't see it.  

I don't think he is guilty of murder.  I think he could have led that situation to a better outcome.  My personal opinion is as an armed agent of the state, that is his responsibility.  I understand that the law doesn't support my opinion, it is just my opinion.

Castile clearly fucked up by not telling the cop where his wallet was located.  He could have done better to not get himself killed, but he is not an armed agent of the state.

I get that it's a hard job and their life is potentially on the line, I get that demanding perfection is unrealistic.  I get that cops are not evil assholes trying to fuck up people's lives.  But they are armed agents of the state, they should have a higher level of responsibility. 

Officer safety has been used as rationale for changes that help cops and not the public for a very long time.  I've seen the attitude among family and friends that are police officers.

That's like saying "otherwise legally driving" when your BAC is above the limit. It is a very important point.  Castille's actions led to his own death.  Had he been carrying legally, not endangering his child, and complied with officer instructions, he would be alive today.  

I can show you hundreds of examples of officers in this situation who hesitated and wound up dead or bleeding on the side of the road. Officer safety is a big deal. They have a right to go home after the end of the shift, and asking cops to sacrifice safety in the name of propping up criminals is ludicrous.  

There are millions of police interactions that happen daily that you never hear about because they are uneventful and usually positive. The 0.01% make the news (in the most slanted way possible for ratings and a narrative that NEVER gets corrected when the facts come out) and you want to make it even more dangerous for law enforcement as a result (i.e. - removing qualified immunity, which is idiotic).  

It's the same flawed logic as the "bAn AsSaULT rIfLeS" crowd after a psychopath shoots up a school with a handgun. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Buddy Spike

[busdriver]

14 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

That's like saying "otherwise legally driving" when your BAC is above the limit. It is a very important point. 

I can show you hundreds of examples of officers in this situation who hesitated and wound up dead or bleeding on the side of the road. Officer safety is a big deal. They have a right to go home after the end of the shift, and asking cops to sacrifice safety in the name of propping up criminals is ludicrous.  

There are millions of police interactions that happen daily that you never hear about because they are uneventful and usually positive. The 0.01% make the news (in the most slanted way possible for ratings and a narrative that NEVER gets corrected when the facts come out) and you want to make it even more dangerous for law enforcement as a result (i.e. - removing qualified immunity, which is idiotic).  

It's the same flawed logic as the "bAn AsSaULT rIfLeS" crowd after a psychopath shoots up a school with a handgun. 

Point 1: The only way it would be relevant is if his intoxication level directly impacted his ability to comprehend what the officer was telling him.  Which is possible, but as yet not what I'm seeing here or elsewhere.  Otherwise, it's a non-sequitur.

Point 2/3:  The threat to officers is something like 150-200ish killed in the line of duty a year, right?  So in the millions of officer interactions that happen in this country.....just like the threat of civilians getting killed by errant cops, the various sides of this argument overstate the severity of what is going on. 

I agree the media malfeasance is gross.  That said, the overall crime rate has gone down a lot in the past couple decades, but the number of civilian deaths from officer involved altercations has not matched the decline.  So something is out of whack.  I'm not saying they're running around maliciously murdering people.

The entire framing of the discussion (cops vs criminals, "sacrifice safety in the name of propping up criminals" or "I don't care if it's an 11 year old, I'm going home tonight!" ) guarantees problems.

I don't think completely eliminating qualified immunity is a good idea.  However departments get away with terrible policy and practices, reference the SWAT raid that fucked up an infant when an officer lobbed a flash bang (which landed in the crib) instead of rolling it along the floor.  Officer acquitted.  Maybe that officer should have been acquitted if he was following his training.  But that technique is negligent, and that isn't news to people who actually know what they're doing.

I do appreciate that policing in the country has come a long way since the days of the stake out squad.  That doesn't mean there isn't room to improve.  And yes, I do expect police officers to assume risk on behalf of the civilians they are sworn to serve.

[Buddy Spike]

9 hours ago, busdriver said:

Point 1: The only way it would be relevant is if his intoxication level directly impacted his ability to comprehend what the officer was telling him.  Which is possible, but as yet not what I'm seeing here or elsewhere.  Otherwise, it's a non-sequitur.

First, he failed to comply.  So, you're right, whether it was because he was high or not is irrelevant.  He reached down despite being told not to.  

What IS relevant is that he was illegally carrying a firearm, which throws the whole "he was a good guy with a concealed carry permit exercising his rights" argument out the window.  He was not legally exercising his 2A rights.  He was also endangering a child in the process. 

9 hours ago, busdriver said:

Point 2/3:  The threat to officers is something like 150-200ish killed in the line of duty a year, right?  So in the millions of officer interactions that happen in this country.....just like the threat of civilians getting killed by errant cops, the various sides of this argument overstate the severity of what is going on. 

This is a bit of a fallacy.  There are even fewer aviation crashes per year as a percentage of flight hours, should we therefore not have boldface and emergency procedures because the risk is small?  Of course not. Every officer should approach every interaction as if it could become a lethal encounter, because it absolutely can. Complacency kills.

On the other side, the "gross overstatement" is the "systemic racism" myth. With few exceptions, in nearly every case the media has latched onto, if the "victim" had A) been a law abiding citizen and/or B) complied with officer instructions and not resisted, that person would be alive today. This myth that police are going around indiscriminately killing minorities is what's getting good cops killed. Hesitation kills just as much as complacency.

You are correct in that law enforcement assumes a higher level of risk. They should be paid more and given more training. They should also not be expected to be the world's mental health counselors and social workers, but that's another story altogether.

Like any other profession (including/especially the military), law enforcement involves a huge cross section of individuals. Some are shitbags. The shitbags usually get run out, but sometimes they end up in leadership just like in the military. I agree that the bad make us all look bad, but the answer is not to make the job harder and run off more good people by removing protections that allow cops to do their jobs. And the answer is certainly not vilifying police with false narratives about racism and "he was a good boy who didn't do anything wrong" lies.

In my experience, the majority of people who put on the badge (just like the military who put on the uniform) are good, honest, hardworking people who want to make a difference in their communities and accept the fact that they're doing it for shit pay and a growing sentiment that they're somehow the enemy.  

As I mentioned earlier, I recommend you see for yourself. Do a ride along. Take a citizens' academy. Or even join your local reserve division.  It's easy to throw stones from the cheap seats, but unless you've done it, you're not really speaking from a knowledgeable position. 

 

[ClearedHot]

Depending on what data you look at, as an American you are between 8 and 50+ times more likely to be killed by a police officer than a terrorist.  We spend trillions of $ on defense which is obviously needed but perhaps we should focus a bit more on the internal.  I am in no way saying all the blame lays with police officers (my brother is a cop), but maybe we can help the entire system with a bit more understanding and new approaches.

As a small segway, the following is a list of other things that are more likely to kill you than a terrorist:

Brain-Eating Parasites, Texting While Driving, Accident caused by a Toddler, Lightning, A Deer, Falling Out of Bed, Food Poisoning, Choking On Food, Bathtub Accident, Financial Crash, Being crushed to death, Medical Errors and my personal favorite...Autoerotic Asphyxiation.

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

First, he failed to comply.  So, you're right, whether it was because he was high or not is irrelevant.  He reached down despite being told not to.  

What IS relevant is that he was illegally carrying a firearm, which throws the whole "he was a good guy with a concealed carry permit exercising his rights" argument out the window.  He was not legally exercising his 2A rights.  He was also endangering a child in the process. 

This is a bit of a fallacy.  There are even fewer aviation crashes per year as a percentage of flight hours, should we therefore not have boldface and emergency procedures because the risk is small?  Of course not. Every officer should approach every interaction as if it could become a lethal encounter, because it absolutely can. Complacency kills.

On the other side, the "gross overstatement" is the "systemic racism" myth. With few exceptions, in nearly every case the media has latched onto, if the "victim" had A) been a law abiding citizen and/or B) complied with officer instructions and not resisted, that person would be alive today. This myth that police are going around indiscriminately killing minorities is what's getting good cops killed. Hesitation kills just as much as complacency.

You are correct in that law enforcement assumes a higher level of risk. They should be paid more and given more training. They should also not be expected to be the world's mental health counselors and social workers, but that's another story altogether.

Like any other profession (including/especially the military), law enforcement involves a huge cross section of individuals. Some are shitbags. The shitbags usually get run out, but sometimes they end up in leadership just like in the military. I agree that the bad make us all look bad, but the answer is not to make the job harder and run off more good people by removing protections that allow cops to do their jobs. And the answer is certainly not vilifying police with false narratives about racism and "he was a good boy who didn't do anything wrong" lies.

In my experience, the majority of people who put on the badge (just like the military who put on the uniform) are good, honest, hardworking people who want to make a difference in their communities and accept the fact that they're doing it for shit pay and a growing sentiment that they're somehow the enemy.  

As I mentioned earlier, I recommend you see for yourself. Do a ride along. Take a citizens' academy. Or even join your local reserve division.  It's easy to throw stones from the cheap seats, but unless you've done it, you're not really speaking from a knowledgeable position. 

 

In the words of comedian Steve Hoffstetter - 'I’ve never flown a helicopter. But if I saw one in a tree, I could still be like, ‘Dude fucked up. It’s not supposed to be up there. That’s pilot error.'

[Buddy Spike]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

In the words of comedian Steve Hoffstetter - 'I’ve never flown a helicopter. But if I saw one in a tree, I could still be like, ‘Dude fucked up. It’s not supposed to be up there. That’s pilot error.'

Swell.  You're actually making my point.

As pilots (maybe you're a fucking nav, in which case, disregard.  No one cares about your opinion anyway), we know not to speculate on mishaps until the facts come out and an SIB has time to do an investigation.  That helicopter crash may not have been pilot error, but the media will still run with their first speculative headlines and "perception becomes reality" despite the facts.

You can do better than quoting comedians to try to prove your point.

 

[pawnman]

3 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Swell.  You're actually making my point.

As pilots (maybe you're a fucking nav, in which case, disregard.  No one cares about your opinion anyway), we know not to speculate on mishaps until the facts come out and an SIB has time to do an investigation.  That helicopter crash may not have been pilot error, but the media will still run with their first speculative headlines and "perception becomes reality" despite the facts.

You can do better than quoting comedians to try to prove your point.

 

And I'd think someone who grew up in the debrief and accountability culture of aviation would be more willing to apply that culture to our civil servants, but here we are.

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, pawnman said:

And I'd think someone who grew up in the debrief and accountability culture of aviation would be more willing to apply that culture to our civil servants, but here we are.

The fact that you think there is no "debrief and accountability culture" in law enforcement only further proves your ignorance.

Sign up. Show them how it's done.

[pawnman]

Just now, Buddy Spike said:

The fact that you think there is no "debrief and accountability culture" in law enforcement only further proves your ignorance.

Sign up. Show them how it's done.

You really think there's the same level of accountability?  That the whole "thin blue line" thing is just a liberal conspiracy theory to make police look bad?  That the incredibly low conviction rate of officers caught ON CAMERA using force on unarmed people is because all cops are doing a really great job?

And you think I'VE swallowed the propaganda. 

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, pawnman said:

You really think there's the same level of accountability?  That the whole "thin blue line" thing is just a liberal conspiracy theory to make police look bad?  That the incredibly low conviction rate of officers caught ON CAMERA using force on unarmed people is because all cops are doing a really great job?

And you think I'VE swallowed the propaganda. 

The "thin blue line thing" isn't a liberal conspiracy, but its meaning has been twisted by the anti-law enforcement crowd.

Are you implying that you cannot legitimately use force on unarmed people?  

[pawnman]

Just now, Buddy Spike said:

The "thin blue line thing" isn't a liberal conspiracy, but its meaning has been twisted by the anti-law enforcement crowd.

Are you implying that you cannot legitimately use force on unarmed people?  

I'm implying it happens more often than it should, and there's no accountability.  There's a standard set of maneuvers:

1. Suspect was dangerous even though they were armed

2. Suspect had a bunch of prior problems with the law (even though this is completely irrelevant to the event being discussed).

3. Cops are heroes who risk their lives, cop safety should come first (if that's the case...don't take a job where your safety is in danger, maybe?)

4. Police union protests any politician that tries to hold said cop accountable.

There's a plethora of cases to choose from.  Go ahead, defend the shooting of Tamir Rice.  Or the beating of Kelley Thomas.  Or Freddie Gray - killing a suspect IN CUSTODY?  Come on.

[Buddy Spike]

10 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'm implying it happens more often than it should, and there's no accountability.  There's a standard set of maneuvers:

1. Suspect was dangerous even though they were armed

2. Suspect had a bunch of prior problems with the law (even though this is completely irrelevant to the event being discussed).

3. Cops are heroes who risk their lives, cop safety should come first (if that's the case...don't take a job where your safety is in danger, maybe?)

4. Police union protests any politician that tries to hold said cop accountable.

There's a plethora of cases to choose from.  Go ahead, defend the shooting of Tamir Rice.  Or the beating of Kelley Thomas.  Or Freddie Gray - killing a suspect IN CUSTODY?  Come on.

Your definition of accountability seems to be punishing people even when the use of force is justified and they're cleared of wrongdoing.

Tamir Rice was a horrible situation. Someone called 911 reporting a person with a gun waving it around in the park. They did say it's "probably fake" but it would be unreasonable for law enforcement to assume that (and if it's probably fake, why call 911?).  The officers made some serious tactical errors in their approach (pulling up right in front with no cover at all). When Rice reached into his waistband to pull out the gun, they shot him.  How were they supposed to know it was a toy?  The city of Cleveland settled a $6M lawsuit and the officer was fired.  A grand jury declined to indict them.  What else do you want?  Take the emotion out of it. Do you want them to go to jail "just because"?

The Kelly Thomas case went to trial and they were found not guilty.  Not by a "thin blue line" but a jury of their peers.  Take that up with the courts.

Finally, Freddie Gray. He was arrested after fleeing on foot in an area of known criminal activity for a switchblade knife that was illegal in Baltimore. While in custody, he broke his neck in the van and hit his head.

Six officers were suspended. All were acquitted or charges dropped. The Obama DOJ (under Lynch) investigated and eventually declined to pursue it.  Again, what would you like?  Execute them in the streets to assuage your FEELINGS?

No one is saying these deaths were justified or right, but to say there was no accountability is wrong. Each example you cited involved criminal charges and trials for the officers.

[Clark Griswold]

Another great lament by VDH:

America Descending into Collective Madness | National Review

From the article:  The common denominator with all these absurdities? An ungracious and neurotic elite whose judgment is bankrupt and whose privilege is paid for by those who don’t have it.

[Buddy Spike]

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

[pawnman]

5 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Your definition of accountability seems to be punishing people even when the use of force is justified and they're cleared of wrongdoing.

Tamir Rice was a horrible situation. Someone called 911 reporting a person with a gun waving it around in the park. They did say it's "probably fake" but it would be unreasonable for law enforcement to assume that (and if it's probably fake, why call 911?).  The officers made some serious tactical errors in their approach (pulling up right in front with no cover at all). When Rice reached into his waistband to pull out the gun, they shot him.  How were they supposed to know it was a toy?  The city of Cleveland settled a $6M lawsuit and the officer was fired.  A grand jury declined to indict them.  What else do you want?  Take the emotion out of it. Do you want them to go to jail "just because"?

The Kelly Thomas case went to trial and they were found not guilty.  Not by a "thin blue line" but a jury of their peers.  Take that up with the courts.

Finally, Freddie Gray. He was arrested after fleeing on foot in an area of known criminal activity for a switchblade knife that was illegal in Baltimore. While in custody, he broke his neck in the van and hit his head.

Six officers were suspended. All were acquitted or charges dropped. The Obama DOJ (under Lynch) investigated and eventually declined to pursue it.  Again, what would you like?  Execute them in the streets to assuage your FEELINGS?

No one is saying these deaths were justified or right, but to say there was no accountability is wrong. Each example you cited involved criminal charges and trials for the officers.

Do you think people in any of these cases would have been acquitted if they were not police officers?  Would a random 2A advocate have been found not guilty for shooting Tamir Rice under similar circumstances?  Would a random passerby have been found not guilty after beating a homeless man to death?

This is EXACTLY the lack of accountability I'm talking about.  Judges and prosecutors don't put much effort into prosecuting cops so they don't offend the police unions for their next re-election.

That guy that was fired from the Cleveland?  He's a cop in a neighboring district.  Real accountability there.  The only ones held accountable were the taxpayers of the city, who had to shell out $6 million for a cop who couldn't be bothered to shout some instructions before pulling the trigger.

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

Couldn't tell you...but I can tell you there are a high number of cases where they are no longer pilots.  Most cops just move to a new district.

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, pawnman said:

Do you think people in any of these cases would have been acquitted if they were not police officers?  Would a random 2A advocate have been found not guilty for shooting Tamir Rice under similar circumstances?  Would a random passerby have been found not guilty after beating a homeless man to death?

This is EXACTLY the lack of accountability I'm talking about.  Judges and prosecutors don't put much effort into prosecuting cops so they don't offend the police unions for their next re-election.

That guy that was fired from the Cleveland?  He's a cop in a neighboring district.  Real accountability there.  The only ones held accountable were the taxpayers of the city, who had to shell out $6 million for a cop who couldn't be bothered to shout some instructions before pulling the trigger.

 

That's a lot of speculative nonsense. A "random 2A advocate" wouldn't be in that situation, but I will refer you to the shooting of Trayvon Martin.  

You don't think Mosby put much effort into Freddie Gray? She was building her entire platform on making examples out of them.

He told the kid to put his hands up and the kid reached into his waistband in response.  Would you rather him wait to find out it's a real gun and get shot?

 

[jrizzell]

4 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

There was a C-17 pilot that was tried for an Off-DZ drop in McChord years ago. Ultimately found not-guilty https://www.airforcemag.com/c-17pilotfoundnotguiltyinairdropdeath/

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, jrizzell said:

There was a C-17 pilot that was tried for an Off-DZ drop in McChord years ago. Ultimately found not-guilty https://www.airforcemag.com/c-17pilotfoundnotguiltyinairdropdeath/

According to Pawnman, that's not good enough.  He should've gone straight to jail.

[pawnman]

5 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

According to Pawnman, that's not good enough.  He should've gone straight to jail.

Well, clearly this won't be productive anymore.

Hope you never find yourself on the wrong side of a baton.

[ClearedHot]

51 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

69 years ago while I was waiting to start UPT I was assign to OG/CC to help with an investigation and Court Martial (I was the admin bitch boy).  In short, at another base one of the IFF T-38 IPs cancelled IFR on the way back to the base from a cross country and did an unauthorized low-level.  While doing so he clipped a power line and sheared the travel pod off the bottom of the jet (he got lucky and didn't crash).  There was obviously damage to the jet and damage to the power line, but thankfully no damage to anyone or anything else on the ground.  The powers that be sent him to a court martial and the OG was the only rated dude on the board!  The others wanted to send the IP to jail for an extended period of time for destruction of government property.  Luckily the OG prevailed.

[ClearedHot]

Five minutes after I posted above this pops up in my news.

French military jets cut off village's power supply by flying low

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

Hope you never find yourself on the wrong side of a baton.

Assuming he's white, he likely won't.

In every one of these cases de-escalation techniques might have prevented the need for force altogether, which I think we all agree is the desired goal.