Why Can’t the U.S. Military Grow Better Leaders?

[Spur38]

M2 is slightly off with: "If it's an issue of leadership, then a warrant program isn't going to solve that as they are specialists that don't rise to leadership positions".

This was true 15 years ago. However, with the approval of the CW5 rank, WOs do fulfill leadership roles and command roles. I commanded aviation task force Kuwait in 2005. Held command in an Operational Support AIrlift (OSA) C-12 position for 9 years. Same-same UCMJ authority as RLOs and the best situation was that only WOs were in the units. It was fantastic from an aviation perspective, with all WOs my lowest time guy had over 7,000 hours! Of course we were all also Guard. That's another story, Active vs. Guard....

As CW5s we still would have to salute a butter bar, however in the Army flying world the expertise of the WO as an aviator holding the highest percentages of IP slots and are the tactical/flying profiecency experts.

But unless flying, as is in the case of the aviator WO, is the primary focus of why you put on the suit, you should be doing something else as an "Real Live Officer"

I always found it disturbing, as an instructor pilot, to train a newly minted LT, watch him progress because he was a shit hot stick and then have to move out to staff or command and not fly anymore except for minimums. Shame, but it's a choice and the responsibility if you want to go up in rank. By the time officers would, with very few exceptions, reach a proficiency level to become a pilot in command they would have to move along....this led to a paradigm shift a couple of years ago where the Army CoS mandated that if you were selected as an aviation commander you had to be in PC status. Up or out. This cut out some significant dead wood and helped the program but it still has its issues with the competitive nature of the business and the narrowing promotion lane as you went through your required flying gates of service. No easy fix for any of it but for my money (somewhat less than an O-6) is was worth it to keep doing what I loved to do-FLY.

[Azimuth]

I don't think a warrant officer program would improve the Air Force. You would have to restructure the ENTIRE dynamic of a flying squadron, and you wouldn't get any added benefits. In fact you'd actually lose opportunities to teach young pilots how to lead. Maybe you could do that with RPAs, but even then I don't really see it working. The Air Force isn't short on leaders. We just mismanage their assignments at times.

Where do you want your experienced IPs in your squadron? (other than the Weapons Officer, DO, and Commander)

You want them to be flight commanders and ADOs. In a perfect world maybe the Chief of Stan Eval is an experienced IP/SEFE. (that's somewhat of a pipe dream with current manning, but you get the point)

Your experienced IPs should be your leaders and they should be leading in the air and in the squadron.

Then later on your promote those experienced leaders, and they lead at the next level and fly less.

I've had Sq/CC's and DO's that weren't even IP's. That says something about their credibility off the bat.

[stract]

I had a commander that was prior Army.

He's taking over the RQG this summer!

[busdriver]

He's taking over the RQG this summer!

Heard that, all the better for the group. Spank is a fucking fantastic leader.

[OverTQ]

M2 is slightly off with: "If it's an issue of leadership, then a warrant program isn't going to solve that as they are specialists that don't rise to leadership positions".

This was true 15 years ago. However, with the approval of the CW5 rank, WOs do fulfill leadership roles and command roles. I commanded aviation task force Kuwait in 2005. Held command in an Operational Support AIrlift (OSA) C-12 position for 9 years. Same-same UCMJ authority as RLOs and the best situation was that only WOs were in the units. It was fantastic from an aviation perspective, with all WOs my lowest time guy had over 7,000 hours! Of course we were all also Guard. That's another story, Active vs. Guard....

As CW5s we still would have to salute a butter bar, however in the Army flying world the expertise of the WO as an aviator holding the highest percentages of IP slots and are the tactical/flying profiecency experts.

But unless flying, as is in the case of the aviator WO, is the primary focus of why you put on the suit, you should be doing something else as an "Real Live Officer"

I always found it disturbing, as an instructor pilot, to train a newly minted LT, watch him progress because he was a shit hot stick and then have to move out to staff or command and not fly anymore except for minimums. Shame, but it's a choice and the responsibility if you want to go up in rank. By the time officers would, with very few exceptions, reach a proficiency level to become a pilot in command they would have to move along....this led to a paradigm shift a couple of years ago where the Army CoS mandated that if you were selected as an aviation commander you had to be in PC status. Up or out. This cut out some significant dead wood and helped the program but it still has its issues with the competitive nature of the business and the narrowing promotion lane as you went through your required flying gates of service. No easy fix for any of it but for my money (somewhat less than an O-6) is was worth it to keep doing what I loved to do-FLY.

Are you in the NG or AC?

[M2]

Heard that, all the better for the group. Spank is a fucking fantastic leader.

This he of television fame?!?

[busdriver]

This he of television fame?!?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[stract]

M2, if you're referring to Spanky Peterson, then no, that's not who we are talking about. If you are talking about someone else, then I got nothin'.

[OverTQ]

Warrants will not help a perceived leadership issue. For one, they have a pyramid up or out selection also. Making W3 has become very difficult not to mention W4. We have more Generals than W5's. And it is still good bye to the two time non selects at each grade. Besides, the random W that gets put in charge of 2-3 aircraft and 10-15 people not included, warrants are not leaders. You will never see a warrant as a Battalion(Squadron) Commander or a Brigade (Wing) Commander. They are the Army efficiently utilizing skills available at a relatively cheap cost. I am sure I will take some shots for this but, don't like your leadership? Then stop saying I just want to fly and learn some leadership skills. The step up to the plate and take some of the non flying jobs that will eventually put you in charge so you can be a positive influence on your organization.

Edited January 30, 2013 by OverTQ

[hindsight2020]

Warrants will not help a perceived leadership issue. For one, they have a pyramid up or out selection also. Making W3 has become very difficult not to mention W4. We have more Generals than W5's. And it is still good bye to the two time non selects at each grade. Besides, the random W that gets put in charge of 2-3 aircraft and 10-15 people not included, warrants are not leaders. You will never see a warrant as a Battalion(Squadron) Commander or a Brigade (Wing) Commander. They are the Army efficiently utilizing skills available at a relatively cheap cost. I am sure I will take some shots for this but, don't like your leadership? Then stop saying I just want to fly and learn some leadership skills. The step up to the plate and take some of the non flying jobs that will eventually put you in charge so you can be a positive influence on your organization.

Nice fable, but that's not how humans work. You ever heard of a tragedy of the commons? Such are the motivations of the aggregate AF pilot pool. Most people join up cuz they want to be pylets. In the process of living their lives, complications to their life situation in the form of financial obligations and expanding list of dependents, their priorities naturally shift. That's hardly a reason to pursue leadership positions for the sake of a paycheck, but there you have it. The idea that people are gonna sack up in an honest way and change the way they are inherently motivated is pure fallacy. They all wait for someone else to take the grenade, leading to no one taking the hit, and all ending up worse off. Tragedy of the commons.

Punking everyone to bid for 'up or out' has done jack to improve that dynamic of rational motivators, as can be illustrated by the almost criminal waste of tax payer dollars in the form of PME and AAD/TA. At least a warrant program would save the DOD money because sure as shit I guarantee you people would do AF pylet for W(n) money.

[M2]

M2, if you're referring to Spanky Peterson, then no, that's not who we are talking about.

Nope, that's who I was thinking of; back to the topic at hand...

[busdriver]

Nice fable,

I have to agree with our Army brother. If you really want to fly the line and you hate the way leadership is mismanaging shit, the best way to fix things is to be a DO or Commander. You get to fly and lead from the front and change things as you see fit. Yes, AAD/PME is insanely stupid but that's the way the game is rigged. If you can suffer through the game, you really can make a difference.

[matmacwc]

I have to agree with our Army brother. If you really want to fly the line and you hate the way leadership is mismanaging shit, the best way to fix things is to be a DO or Commander. You get to fly and lead from the front and change things as you see fit. Yes, AAD/PME is insanely stupid but that's the way the game is rigged. If you can suffer through the game, you really can make a difference.

Delusion. I've only seen 2 commanders in 13 years that can tell his leadership what's up.

[Karl Hungus]

I have to agree with our Army brother. If you really want to fly the line and you hate the way leadership is mismanaging shit, the best way to fix things is to be a DO or Commander. You get to fly and lead from the front and change things as you see fit. Yes, AAD/PME is insanely stupid but that's the way the game is rigged. If you can suffer through the game, you really can make a difference.

We've castrated our DOs and CCs, especially at the SQ level. They can't make any decisions without running it by the OG and WG. The "stay in and tough it out and change things!!!!!1" mantra is a joke.

[joe1234]

I typically find that with threads like these, it often ends up with everyone generally agreeing that something is wrong, but it's always someone else's fault -- very few people ever actually take responsibility for the way things are. It's senior leadership, or, it's the dirty careerists, or it's this or it's that, but no one ever actually admits being part of the problem.

I will freely admit that I am part of the problem, and not of the solution. My job is to fly airplanes (amongst other random officer-related stuff). My job is not to fix the Air Force. I am not exactly Billy Mitchell here. I am not going to sit here and sacrifice my financial well being, time with friends and family, and future employment prospects to start some sort of corporate cultural revolution. I'm not going to sit around well past duty hours writing manifestos and rallying supporters to this cause. And I doubt anyone else here will, either.

People promote the "work within the system and change it" mantra because it conveniently allows them to feel better about not changing their behavior, while still advancing their careers, draw a paycheck and bennies, and not making too many waves. And the vast majority of us are okay with that because those things are far higher priorities for us.

[nsplayr]

[busdriver]

We've castrated our DOs and CCs, especially at the SQ level.

In general I agree, but it's not like that in every wing in the AF. I've seen what a good SQ/CC can do when that isn't the command climate.

EDIT: Put it this way, if good dudes won't play the game to get promoted then whoever is willing to play gets promoted.

Edited February 1, 2013 by busdriver

[OverTQ]

Nice fable, but that's not how humans work. You ever heard of a tragedy of the commons? Such are the motivations of the aggregate AF pilot pool. Most people join up cuz they want to be pylets. In the process of living their lives, complications to their life situation in the form of financial obligations and expanding list of dependents, their priorities naturally shift. That's hardly a reason to pursue leadership positions for the sake of a paycheck, but there you have it. The idea that people are gonna sack up in an honest way and change the way they are inherently motivated is pure fallacy. They all wait for someone else to take the grenade, leading to no one taking the hit, and all ending up worse off. Tragedy of the commons.

Punking everyone to bid for 'up or out' has done jack to improve that dynamic of rational motivators, as can be illustrated by the almost criminal waste of tax payer dollars in the form of PME and AAD/TA. At least a warrant program would save the DOD money because sure as shit I guarantee you people would do AF pylet for W(n) money.

I guess it is good they would do it for no money. The promotion rates for Army WO AV types in 11 was: 58% for W3, 57% for W4 and 18% for W5. Adopt the WO system as it is and 4 out of ten would be out of a job before they would have normally have made CPT.

[Spur38]

, warrants are not leaders.

What high school jr rotc program do you belong to?

[hindsight2020]

I guess it is good they would do it for no money. The promotion rates for Army WO AV types in 11 was: 58% for W3, 57% for W4 and 18% for W5. Adopt the WO system as it is and 4 out of ten would be out of a job before they would have normally have made CPT.

You think the majority of AF pilots don't already privately consider (via a combination of their motivations and aggregate actions) the AF the best paid regional airline? How much do you think the going rate for civilian pylet is at a regional? The majority of people didn't join the AF pilot ranks to pursue non-flying employment the day after their initial commitment. It is what it is. This is at the heart of the tragedy of the common AF pilot.

I'm not particularly interested in the particulars of the Army WO program, I just wanted to use it to illustrate that limiting AF pilots access to a technician track has done jack shit to help with the leadership deficit. As such, the 'up or out' is a fucking failure.

In the ARC side of the house they have started with the business of "vectoring" people who check a box in vPC-GR saying "I want my career managed for senior leadership". I think that's great. Unfortunately the rest of the ARC is still expected to act AD-Lite and jump through the PME 9th grade intelligence-regressing content, but that could be changed. If the 'vectoring' implementation had more teeth to it, volunteering to be vectored would keep the vast majority of AF pilots concentrating on their SQ level progressions and leave the senior level stuff outside of the spectrum of "flying planes, fvckin and earning a check". As an added, the OPR system would almost instantly see a natural grade deflation that could now be better suited to have the kind of visible graduations required to stratify few people for few jobs as opposed to a whole bunch of OPR-clones for the same few jobs. The savings on PME/AAD/AT/school TDYs would be significant as well, if fiscal restraint is of consequence to you.

But the system has too much inertia to let that happen. As such and as you see displayed in the attitudes of many on here, nobody will sidestep their personal motivations in order to attempt to change something for the benefit of their peers and at the cost of his/her job/vocational satisfaction.

Look, keeping somebody at Major for the price of "we won't fuck with you" is an incredible motivator for the majority of these AF pylet types. I could be so brazen as to suggest O-3 caps and you'd still have takers, though the numbers would dwindle due to what I call "all AF wives are O-5 wives" syndrome, but that's for another thread. There really isn't any decent reason to write off the technician track so flippantly as the AF does. You'll never get quality out of somebody who doesn't want to be there. This is basic dynamics of rational motivators. Why pay through the nose for said deficit?

[Spur38]

There really isn't any decent reason to write off the technician track so flippantly as the AF does. You'll never get quality out of somebody who doesn't want to be there. This is basic dynamics of rational motivators. Why pay through the nose for said deficit?

You should change your call sign to "Foresight 20/20" great responses!

[Champ Kind]

the AF the best paid regional airline

Look, keeping somebody at Major for the price of "we won't fuck with you" is an incredible motivator for the majority of these AF pylet types.

Pure gold right there.

[Seriously]

You think the majority of AF pilots don't already privately consider (via a combination of their motivations and aggregate actions) the AF the best paid regional airline? How much do you think the going rate for civilian pylet is at a regional? The majority of people didn't join the AF pilot ranks to pursue non-flying employment the day after their initial commitment. It is what it is. This is at the heart of the tragedy of the common AF pilot.

I'm not particularly interested in the particulars of the Army WO program, I just wanted to use it to illustrate that limiting AF pilots access to a technician track has done jack shit to help with the leadership deficit. As such, the 'up or out' is a fucking failure.

In the ARC side of the house they have started with the business of "vectoring" people who check a box in vPC-GR saying "I want my career managed for senior leadership". I think that's great. Unfortunately the rest of the ARC is still expected to act AD-Lite and jump through the PME 9th grade intelligence-regressing content, but that could be changed. If the 'vectoring' implementation had more teeth to it, volunteering to be vectored would keep the vast majority of AF pilots concentrating on their SQ level progressions and leave the senior level stuff outside of the spectrum of "flying planes, fvckin and earning a check". As an added, the OPR system would almost instantly see a natural grade deflation that could now be better suited to have the kind of visible graduations required to stratify few people for few jobs as opposed to a whole bunch of OPR-clones for the same few jobs. The savings on PME/AAD/AT/school TDYs would be significant as well, if fiscal restraint is of consequence to you.

But the system has too much inertia to let that happen. As such and as you see displayed in the attitudes of many on here, nobody will sidestep their personal motivations in order to attempt to change something for the benefit of their peers and at the cost of his/her job/vocational satisfaction.

Look, keeping somebody at Major for the price of "we won't fuck with you" is an incredible motivator for the majority of these AF pylet types. I could be so brazen as to suggest O-3 caps and you'd still have takers, though the numbers would dwindle due to what I call "all AF wives are O-5 wives" syndrome, but that's for another thread. There really isn't any decent reason to write off the technician track so flippantly as the AF does. You'll never get quality out of somebody who doesn't want to be there. This is basic dynamics of rational motivators. Why pay through the nose for said deficit?

I don't think most people originally signed up for the job for those reason. There are a hell of a lot of hoops to jump through just to get wings on your chest. I think most people join for the right reasons, but quickly become jaded by the never ending, mindless queep and broken promotion system. A lot of guys stay in these days because there aren't many places to go outside the military. So we find ways to cope with the grind and put up with just enough bullshit to get by.

It seems like it's just too damn much work to try and change the system,. but has anyone here ever tried? Are there any guys on this board in a leadership position that care to chime in?

[nsplayr]

A lot of guys stay in these days because there aren't many places to go outside the military. So we find ways to cope with the grind and put up with just enough bullshit to get by.

I have never been able to understand this. So, supposedly the military aviation profession is filled with Type A, hard-charging, "my dick is bigger than yours" competitive guys, but a lot of them have this attitude too?

At least one of those assumptions cannot be true, I say both. A) I think there are all types no matter what community you come from, but more importantly, B) dudes are selling themselves way too short.

If you're smart and driven enough to made in the service in the first place, promoted to O-3+, earned your wings, have flown in combat where lives are on the line, have done some PME/MA work beyond the standard college degree, and have put up with the long hours additional duties grind, I find it extremely hard to believe that your options outside the military are quite as dim as some people believe.

[JS]

I typically find that with threads like these, it often ends up with everyone generally agreeing that something is wrong, but it's always someone else's fault -- very few people ever actually take responsibility for the way things are. It's senior leadership, or, it's the dirty careerists, or it's this or it's that, but no one ever actually admits being part of the problem.

I will freely admit that I am part of the problem, and not of the solution. My job is to fly airplanes (amongst other random officer-related stuff). My job is not to fix the Air Force. I am not exactly Billy Mitchell here. I am not going to sit here and sacrifice my financial well being, time with friends and family, and future employment prospects to start some sort of corporate cultural revolution. I'm not going to sit around well past duty hours writing manifestos and rallying supporters to this cause. And I doubt anyone else here will, either.

People promote the "work within the system and change it" mantra because it conveniently allows them to feel better about not changing their behavior, while still advancing their careers, draw a paycheck and bennies, and not making too many waves. And the vast majority of us are okay with that because those things are far higher priorities for us.

Pretty good thoughts. Kind of outside the box. At first, I didn't really agree with you, but after re-reading your post, I think you have a valid point.

So what is your solution - accept the status quo, make your money, spend time with the family, and then tell jokes at cocktail parties and online about how f-ed up the Air Force and the government are? That's kind of the view I take after living the stupidity for ten or so years.