Safety of Flight/Crew Rest

[ChkHandleDn]

I’m currently deployed and a buddy of mine recently called crew rest/safety of flight during his alert sequence. Apparently he was unable to sleep and had already been up for approx 16 or so hours. We fly combat basic and the mission was routine, meaning there was nothing vital to move such as AE, HR, etc. However, it seems that when he called safety of flight, TACC grilled him and the amount info requested seemed to be slightly over the top. Apparently, it goes all the way to the top and a general has to be briefed.

When I attended GRACC I remember TACC telling us that if safety of flight was ever an issue, call it and they would have our back. Yet when a crew member actually calls it out of genuine worry for the crew, TACC and everyone else seems to question his intentions and motivations. They even asked if he had been drinking the night prior even though there is no alcohol here. He said he could not sleep, felt loopy when he was alerted, and did not want to be a statistic for putting a bird in the dirt, landing gear up, taxing into something, or doing any number of things that seem to have plagued the community in the past.

I often wondered why more people did not call safety of flight consider the length of our duty days, time zone changes, etc, and now I know why. It seems like it is much easier to fly exhausted, than to put up with the Monday morning quarterbacking. Yet I do find it sad that if something were to happen, the first thing asked would be, “Well, why didn’t you call safety of flight?”

There is a lot of talk about safety in the AMC community as being paramount, but actions speak louder than words. To me TACC could give two shits what happens to a crew unless something happens to a jet, and yet they wonder why crews fly into thunderstorms and land gear up. Thoughts?

[Banquet Beer]

I think MFOQA (Can't remember what it stands for) is info pulled off the jet with no repercussions. The ASAP program is the self-reporting, supposedly anonymous, program.

Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) Guidelines

2. AMC ASAP is patterned after many successful FAA sanctioned safety programs operated by nearly all US Air Carriers. Crewmembers are provided access to a secure and identity-protected website (www.safety-masap.com) that allows individuals to submit ASAP reports from virtually any location. The website also allows crewmembers to review previously entered reports and check resolution of submitted reports. Each Wing Safety Office was provided a Username and Password for unit members to log into the ASAP Home page.

3. At the end of each mission crewmembers should ask the following question: Did we do something or did something happen to warrant an ASAP submission? ASAP allows all crewmembers the ability to report crew errors, incidents, trends, and/or potential safety problems with equipment, procedures, or agencies. AMC ASAP managers take each input and forward to the necessary agencies for follow-on action.

4. If an ASAP submission is made within 24 hours of an event, the submission will protect the submitter from punitive/adverse action except in cases of willful disregard of regulations and procedures. ASAP is an identity-protected program allowing submitters to report crew errors without fear of repercussions. This affords protection for the aircrew member from a ‘self incriminating like effect’ by reporting his or her error. If there are multiple sources of information concerning the same incident and an ASAP report is submitted, the unit commander will consult with the functional MAJCOM directorate before making a final decision to downgrade or decertify the individual(s) involved. The unit commander retains final decision authority.

5. The value in the 24 hour “forgiveness” policy for non-intentional events is the vastly increased incentive for crewmembers to submit ASAP reports. Leadership cannot proactively reduce mishaps through communication and training program adjustments unless they are made aware of what errors the crew force typically commits. “You don’t know what you don’t know”.

How is it anonymous if there is a "24 hour period" and they can find out who you are if there are cases of "willful disregard"? Doesn't seem so anonymous to me... AMC will eat their own and make it look like they are helping you out. I think it is a great idea, but I don’t trust it.

Edit: Looks like gear pig beat me to it.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Banquet Beer

[tac airlifter]

Good discussion. I personally have never called crew rest, but I did allow myself to be pressured into flying an FCF after a full day of flying. I nearly crashed the plane from fatigue. It was a scary moment for me, and a huge professional wake up call that I have limitis just like everyone else. I don't mean that to sound arrogant, but I'm sure you've all had a bubble bursting moment. Anyway, long story short- I've never called crew rest but I certainly should have. So learn from my mistake and accept some heat from the office trolls before putting yourself in a dangerous situation for no good damn reason.

[LockheedFix]

A big "2" on going the M-ASAP route. File a report and numerous O-7s and up will see it and wonder WTF? The O-6 in charge of the program is at least required to have someone look into it. If nothing else, the guys at AMD who were leaning on you will get asked some questions about why all the fuss about harassing an AC for making a call that he has been briefed a hundred times in his career to make if he's not feeling up to the job. This should at least make AMD think before giving the 3rd degree to a crew calling crew rest.

[SuperWSO]

Leadership second guessing is nothing new. Early in my career, a friend was bringing a jet back from the UK when they got a "Vibe Hi" light somewhere over Scotland. In the B-1, those lights are either spurious (bad sensor) or they indicate that the motor in question is about to come apart catastrophically. Because you can't tell the difference, you treat it like an impending failure. The AC shut down the engine and returned to their point of departure. Leadership hit the ceiling and wanted to know why they didn't bring the jet home, across the North Atlantic, in clear violation of Dash 1 emergency procedure guidance.

There is no situation too clear cut to be Monday morning quarterbacked.

[BQZip01]

I have rescheduled/cancelled 4 flights in my limited career due to a lack of adequate sleep and in every instance, leadership around me backed my call 100%. In 3 additional instances, my crew rest was pretty cleanly busted due to official duties interfering with the required 12 hours of crew rest. In each instance, I felt fine to fly, but let my leadership know the situation and let make the call as to whether we would attempt a waiver from the OG. In two instances, I didn't take off, but in the third, I did (I was dealing with redeployment issues and got a call about an hour after my crew rest started...hadn't even had dinner, much less slept).

Just be honest and, no matter how much bitching a REMF does, you can sleep well at night knowing you did the right thing

Leadership second guessing is nothing new. Early in my career, a friend was bringing a jet back from the UK when they got a "Vibe Hi" light somewhere over Scotland. In the B-1, those lights are either spurious (bad sensor) or they indicate that the motor in question is about to come apart catastrophically. Because you can't tell the difference, you treat it like an impending failure. The AC shut down the engine and returned to their point of departure. Leadership hit the ceiling and wanted to know why they didn't bring the jet home, across the North Atlantic, in clear violation of Dash 1 emergency procedure guidance.

There is no situation too clear cut to be Monday morning quarterbacked.

shacked

[NEflyer]

Valuable lesson to be learned here. Fly under the weather after a crappy nights sleep or ignore a potentially critical failure, no big deal, that is assuming you bring it back in one piece. Leave the zipper too low or roll up the sleeves on your bag, it shows you lack discipline and clearly can't be trusted to fly.

[HercDude]

My last deployment we were briefed by the EOG deputy, the Sq/CC, and the Sq/DO seperatly that OEF is now in the sustainment phase, we have plenty of airlift in theatre, and that for 95% of the missions we get fragged, there is nothing we do that can't be picked up by someone else or done tomorrow. If something was critical we would know it before we walked out the door. I had 3 cases where dudes from my Sq called crew rest - mostly for idiotic scheduling that jacked up peoples sleep schedule combined with ATOC/AMD shenanigans. In all three cases neither the Sq or OG made any attempt to backup the guys calling crew rest, and informed them that "that's not how we do bussiness." The last case resulted in the AC standing at attention in front of the OG.

I'm all for leaning foreward and hacking the mission. That's what I was raised to do. But it pissed me right the hell off to get the message that we don't do that any more, then crush nuts when someone calls crew rest. You can't have it both ways. This was a leadership failure.

The kicker was that on the way home after we broke in Germany the day before the airfield closed for three days, I didn't call crew rest when I could have, in order to get people home for the hollidays like I was told to do. The day after my reconstitution I was standing in front of the Sq/CC learning how lucky I was not to be facing a FEB.

[Champ Kind]

Crew rest? Isn't that what Ambien is for? That's what mgmt seems to think...

[guineapigfury]

Sorry guys, that sucks. I call crew rest about once every 2 years. I made this call in T-6s after being unable to sleep for 2 days straight. I told the assistant flight/cc, fully expecting for his boot to violently strike my testicles. Instead, he said "That's the correct decision, we'll throw someone else on the sortie, go home." So there is good leadership out there.

[Guest]

Where was the local/Sq/OG leadership on this one?

I would think they would be able to tell the HHQ folks to shove it. I don't know the airlift world but are you really left out there on a limb with no leadership input or support when deployed?

[Butters]

Sometimes they do. It depends on what time of the month it is and what BS AMC/18 AF/TACC is peddling at the time. This shit has been going on for 10 years. Problem was some guys were using "safety of flight" calls as a form of legal mutiny. If they got sent to the Deid to many times they would make the call then be miraculously rested when they heard they were going to the ETAR/EDDF Stage. It was easy to spot those guys. However, because of a few shinanigans they started this crap of having to write a book to prove why you were tired (while being tired).

Bottom line. If you feel the need to call safety of flight do it. Be prepared to back it up. That will not be difficult if it is legit.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Butters

[RogAir]

Safety of Flight is the easiest card you have in your hand as long as you are being honest, and do not cave no matter how much pressure is brought. I've called it a couple of times in AMC and while TACC went apeshit, my local OG had my back. TACC wants to make it more of an asspain for you to "stop" a mission than it is to "go", so don't play their game. When you call them and declare safety of flight they will want you to "call back to your OG before declaring". Don't bite. Tell them you are arranging Billeting for your crew, and will give a contact number once in Billeting. They will want all the details immediately. Details can wait, you need to get you crew to bed. If they continue to badger, get them to explain, on a recorded line, what they are asking you to do i.e. "So what you are saying is you want me to fly exhausted after I just told you how unsafe I believe it would be?" That usually gets them backpedalling and they capitulate. Another tactic is they will ask "Who is your Ops Group Commander? Because he will have to be notified." I've never bit at this, but if it happened again, and I was sufficiently pissed, I would ask who HIS supervisor was because HE was going to be notified of a crew being harassed over safety.

I've never heard of a pilot being disciplined for calling safety of flight, but there seems to be some fear of doing it (perhaps the TACC inquisition routine). As long as it is legit, call it, and never back down. In an ideal world TACC should say "Thank you for making the safe decision, let's work on getting your crew some rest".

[HercDude]

I don't know the airlift world but are you really left out there on a limb with no leadership input or support when deployed?

Part of the problem I've run in to is that we frequently deploy under leadership we've never met. On all of my deployments the EAS has been made up of crews & support from more than one squadron/base (in one case I think we had crews from 5 different squadrons). It's a two way street where you may not be comfortable bringing some things to the attention of a commander you don't know, and since they don't know their crews they have trouble figuring out what gripes are legit and which are bullshit.

It was even worse when I was at the Deid and the OG there was a Viper guy whose OG included hercs, -135s, Rivet Joints, and E-3s. Don't know how common that is and I'm sure in many cases it works out, but in that case it was a damn travesty. He made it a habit to armchair quarterback airlift missions - going so far as to ask out loud why C-130s weren't flying the ILS in to Baghdad (this was in '04), since our tactical approaches were such a nussiance to the airspace there.

[addict]

The questions from TACC are just a checklist. In one sense, the call causes the mission to stop in its tracks. By their own rules, if one crew calls safety of flight, TACC doesn't call up the next crew and ask "hey, why don't you go fly this thing?" until those questions are answered so that the next crew isn't put into the same corner.

Also, it is TACC, not AMD. It's been a few years for me, but the C-17's aren't chopped.

Edited March 20, 2012 by addict

[JarheadBoom]

My AC on my last deployment [insert standard KC-10 deployment joke here] called crew rest about 4hr before our expected alert. When the SQ/CC was informed (while he was in the middle of chatting with the latest group of fresh-off-the-rotator crews), his first words to the ADO who broke the news were "Are you fucking kidding me?!? Get their asses in here.". Shenanigans ensued for the next several hours; the bad blood lasted until we left.

Great (and by great I really mean piss-poor) way to show the new AC who just arrived, and is on his first deployment as an AC, that the SQ leadership really does have your back if you throw the S-O-F/crew rest flag.

[BQZip01]

My last deployment we were briefed by the EOG deputy, the Sq/CC, and the Sq/DO seperatly that OEF is now in the sustainment phase, we have plenty of airlift in theatre, and that for 95% of the missions we get fragged, there is nothing we do that can't be picked up by someone else or done tomorrow. If something was critical we would know it before we walked out the door. I had 3 cases where dudes from my Sq called crew rest - mostly for idiotic scheduling that jacked up peoples sleep schedule combined with ATOC/AMD shenanigans. In all three cases neither the Sq or OG made any attempt to backup the guys calling crew rest, and informed them that "that's not how we do bussiness." The last case resulted in the AC standing at attention in front of the OG.

I'm all for leaning foreward and hacking the mission. That's what I was raised to do. But it pissed me right the hell off to get the message that we don't do that any more, then crush nuts when someone calls crew rest. You can't have it both ways. This was a leadership failure.

The kicker was that on the way home after we broke in Germany the day before the airfield closed for three days, I didn't call crew rest when I could have, in order to get people home for the hollidays like I was told to do. The day after my reconstitution I was standing in front of the Sq/CC learning how lucky I was not to be facing a FEB.

Point lessons learned:

1. Make the hard decisions to NOT do a mission when you aren't supposed to and expect "leadership" to be disappointed, criticize you, and second guess your decision.

2. Fly when you shouldn't and expect "leadership" to be disappointed, criticize you, and second guess your decision

Overall lesson learned:

Too many REMFs are don't actually care about the line flyers and have no problem being disappointed, criticizing you in a no-win situation, and second guess every decision. What you have isn't leadership: they are sniveling, second-rate managers.

It was even worse when I was at the Deid and the OG there was a Viper guy whose OG included hercs, -135s, Rivet Joints, and E-3s. Don't know how common that is and I'm sure in many cases it works out, but in that case it was a damn travesty. He made it a habit to armchair quarterback airlift missions - going so far as to ask out loud why C-130s weren't flying the ILS in to Baghdad (this was in '04), since our tactical approaches were such a nussiance to the airspace there.

Less than a year after this?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqnrkvl9MNg&feature=related

[XL0901]

This has TDD written all over it...specifically a certain O-5 who will do anything to move the mission. As was said, you are moving channel cargo from an installation that has little use in current ops (based on your no alcohol comment). BIG "2" on the M-ASAP. I believe in the fact that you will be safe from reprisal and you will be shocked to hear the response and how far up the chain it goes. Bottom line, your bro needs to fly his jet and not worry about a guy halfway across the world who has no clue about what the crews are going through. When I was out there I had four 16 missions in 5 days, the last of which I took a waiver for. That was the last time...I told the crew that if it happened again (Unless the field was being overrun) we were staying downrange. The next day everyone had well packed A-bags. There is only one mission worth it and even then there are always other options.

[busdriver]

WTF really? TACC/any other desk sitting non-aircraft flying REMF job having mother fucker vs an aircraft commander?

[aerofunk]

On my last trip to the Deid there was an instance where both the primary and DNIF-cover AC showed calling crew rest issues. There had been a concert at the bra (right in the middle of the 24-hour quiet hours CC) that night and show at the SQ was around 1am so neither crew got any sleep. The DO flipped his shit when he was called about the situation and pressured the crew into launching with both ACs on the jet. The idea was that one AC would take-off while the other got "crew rested" in the aux seat and then they'd swap out, basically turning two not crew rested ACs into one crew rested AC by some sort of PFM. This was all after the same DO refused to give us Ambien for anything other than major schedule changes, nevermind the fact that our sleep schedule was interrupted every 3 days by the 12+ hour sorties we were flying. Just the tip of the iceberg with this community...

[Guest]

It sounds like you guys have people who make bullshit calls. That's too bad. Clearly it effects the legit calls.

I only saw this once in my career. A pilot was fretting about TOLD and decided at the last minute (dressed and ready at the ops desk for a step brief) that he wasn't comfortable. The Sq/CC grabbed Henny Penny's lineup card, bolted back to life support, threw on his flight gear and stepped out the door to lead the flight with 0.69 seconds prep time but a full and satisfying "3-1 standard, anything else I'll be directive" flight brief as they hopped in the van.

Henny Penny was not allowed to deploy again but it didn't effect his career...I think he's probably an O-7 now.

[Champ Kind]

For better or for worse -- such a difference between our communities.

[moosepileit]

MASAP is the proper channel.

I've run C-17 dets and of course lived in them and flown through them.

I've been an airline pilot and am familiar w/ ASAP.

I've been a DOV chief.

I am very familiar with both MASAP and MFOQA.

Their relationship is supposed to be complimentary.

If your Sq/CC thinks he can FEB a safety of flight call, I'd enjoy speaking with him/her.

[Karl Hungus]

The only stigma against calling crew rest that I've seen is the "go ahead, call crew rest, you're only gonna fuck your bros who now have to cover that line for you" guilt trip.

[magnetfreezer]

This was all after the same DO refused to give us Ambien for anything other than major schedule changes, nevermind the fact that our sleep schedule was interrupted every 3 days by the 12+ hour sorties we were flying. Just the tip of the iceberg with this community...

Isn't Ambien/Dex regulated at a higher level (i.e, usage between you and the flight docs since it has to be approved by WG/CC or higher depending on the situation)?