What's wrong with the Air Force?

[HercDude]

Curfew is also 10 PM for the first 30 days. What do they think people are going to do on day 31?

I had to take a crew of 35 (aircrew & Mx) to the AOR a couple months ago. My Sq leadership was scarred of having (another) alcohol incident on the road, so they instituted a new definition of the bottle-to-throttle rule: No consuming alcohol within 12 hours of ALERT. And they applied this to everyone on the trip, Mx included.

Fast forward through a 10 hour trip to St John's......Rolling back down to the hotel lobby 6.9 minutes after checking in, what do you think greeted me at the bar? 30 dudes pounding beer & whiskey like it was their job, on empty stomachs, staring at their watches, getting pissed as a fart.

Same situation I think. People don't realize that arbitrarily changing the rules doesn't actually address the problem.

[snoopyeast]

Things have changed.

Edited July 4, 2014 by snoopyeast

[Liquid]

I'm deployed and busy. I still check the forum to see what's new. I'm tired of reading posts from whiners who continue to bitch and moan about not being required to get an AAD until Col. Drama queens. I can't stand being around people who complain about stupid things and this forum is full of them. Hard to read sometimes, but there are enough witty insights to make it worth it.

This Korea alcohol thing is over the top. I think it is an unlawful order. Good order and discipline my ass. Some commanders have lost their minds with this "treat people like children" mentality of leadership. JQP's Camp Air Force article is spot on. I recommend you read it and apply it to your leadership style.

To those in this forum that aren't bitter, selfish, disillusioned crybabies, thank you for serving in the greatest AF this world has ever seen. It is a bloated bureaucracy (DMV with guns), with more chickenshit senior leaders and commanders and more stupid rules than it should have. But our Air Force kicks ass all over the world, enabling our nation to do the things it should be doing, killing those who need to be killed, and protecting those who need to be protected. We need competent, courageous and creative leaders at all levels, including every one of our officers. Quit your complaining and start leading. Or just quietly separate and go get that dream job where there are no stupid rules and bad leaders, so the rest of us can get to it.

edited to remove some profanity caused by my bad mood

Edited July 5, 2014 by Liquid

[Nineline]

This Korea alcohol thing is over the top bullshit. I think it is an unlawful order. Good order and discipline my ass. Some commanders have lost their f*ing minds with this "treat people like children" mentality of leadership. JQP's Camp Air Force article is spot on. I recommend you read it and apply it to your leadership style.

This! It's reassuring to see a senior leaders viewpoint that jives with common sense. Hit me up if you find yourself passing through Osan... The first round is on me. (Though, as long as it's not within the next 30 days of course.)

-9-

[matmacwc]

Thanks Liquid

[Smokin]

It is refreshing to hear that some senior leaders between us and the Chief see at least some things through the same lenses that us line pilots do. Makes me think there might be hope yet.

[Guest nsplayr]

I figured that's the way TAP would be. Out of touch government civilians *teaching* me how to get a job. As it is now, I'm going to have to sacrifice post deployment reconstitution or lose leave to attend TAP.

The funniest part was that the folks helping me transition to a successful career outside the military were ORFs (old retired farts) who managed to land the prestigious civilian job of teaching TAP at Cannon AFB, NM.

Wow...with that shining example how could I not succeed?

Here's my (partial) solution: before TAP starts you do a 2-minute sit down with every person. If your two minute "what's your life plan" pitch passes a reasonableness test, you get the 2-hour gentleman's course where a VA rep will collect your claims paperwork and someone will discuss the finer points of the GI bill, gives you the free LinkedIn gouge, etc. and sends you on your merry way.

About 1/3 of the class could have been excused on day 1 and the folks working there could have spend more one-on-one time on the dude who's "plan" was to become a hippie.

Edited July 7, 2014 by nsplayr

[MD]

To those in this forum that aren't bitter, selfish, disillusioned crybabies, thank you for serving in the greatest AF this world has ever seen. It is a bloated bureaucracy (DMV with guns), with more chickenshit senior leaders and commanders and more stupid rules than it should have. But our Air Force kicks ass all over the world, enabling our nation to do the things it should be doing, killing those who need to be killed, and protecting those who need to be protected. We need competent, courageous and creative leaders at all levels, including every one of our officers. Quit your complaining and start leading. Or just quietly separate and go get that dream job where there are no stupid rules and bad leaders, so the rest of us can get to it.

I wouldn't necessarily equate rational criticism of problems and stupidity to automatically equal one being a "bitter, selfish, disillusioned crybaby", anymore than I'd label your or other ways of thinking to be kool aid drinking rah-rah lemming-speak. Sure, there are the actual crybabies, and sure there are the kool-aid brainless types; but I think overall both of the more moderate types of people on each side actually solve issues and come up with solutions for what is an AF that definitely isn't without problems (a good number of, in fact), even with the good things it has and offers.

[hindsight2020]

I wouldn't necessarily equate rational criticism of problems and stupidity to automatically equal one being a "bitter, selfish, disillusioned crybaby", anymore than I'd label your or other ways of thinking to be kool aid drinking rah-rah lemming-speak. Sure, there are the actual crybabies, and sure there are the kool-aid brainless types; but I think overall both of the more moderate types of people on each side actually solve issues and come up with solutions for what is an AF that definitely isn't without problems (a good number of, in fact), even with the good things it has and offers.

I stopped paying attention to Liquid's quitter-hate a while ago. I can only imagine the conniption he'd have regarding an expanding Air Force Reserve structure (per the congressional report 6 months ago) in the present active duty drawdown. You know, that organization of selfish quitters who vote with their feet every day with disgusting values such as homesteading, rejection of qweep, unapologetic preference of flying over any other duty as a prerequisite for deciding to show up at all, getting a second paycheck which is less important than their civilian one, and lastly, a community of politically incorrect brotherhood built upon relative lack of turnover, which makes active duty look like a bunch of fucking 3-level equivalent JCPenney cashiers on their second week on the job.

Yeah buddy, guys like him probably couldn't tell a Reservist from the Taliban judging by the traits he values. The people he decries as the problem are literally the preponderance of my recruits. And here's the sweet irony: Active Duty turns around and puts us in positions of flying support under the premise of higher aggregate experience retention we bring to the table.

[Liquid]

MD, good point. No automatic characterization intended. I agree that solving problems should be our focus. 2020, I can't tell a Reservist from the Taliban? F*ck off.

[Herk Driver]

2020, I can't tell a Reservist from the Taliban? F*ck off.

Short and to the point.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[Smokin]

... which makes active duty look like a bunch of fucking 3-level equivalent JCPenney cashiers on their second week on the job.

Pretty bold statement. I've worked with many reservists who are stuck in a 3-1 that is a decade old and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. I've also worked with reservists who only fly the minimum BMC rates and can still crush the new patch straight from WIC. Making a blanket statement about either side of the force is absurd.

[brickhistory]

Quit your complaining and start leading.

One might state the obvious with a "you first."

But one is retired and thus a "quitter" because the giveash1t meter pegged simultaneously with the OLC to the tilting at windmills award.

[sqwatch]

One might state the obvious with a "you first."

But one is retired and thus a "quitter" because the giveash1t meter pegged simultaneously with the OLC to the tilting at windmills award.

"One" speaks only in the third person, which makes me believe you're too big a "game of thrones" fan, hammered, or reeling from liquid touching on a sore subject.

No one called retirees quitters but you.

Edited July 7, 2014 by sqwatch

[sqwatch]

and lastly, a community of politically incorrect brotherhood built upon relative lack of turnover, which makes active duty look like a bunch of ######ing 3-level equivalent JCPenney cashiers on their second week on the job.

Yeah buddy, guys like him probably couldn't tell a Reservist from the Taliban judging by the traits he values.

I did a three year guard tour flying vipers for TFAP or whatever they're calling it now. It didn't make me an expert on guard affairs, but it gave me an appreciation of a couple of the points you address- homesteading, a civilian job that is the priority during peacetime, and continuity due to lack of turnover. When it comes to the "band of brothers" type of camaraderie you allege, that isn't what I observed and frankly I think you're full of sh1t to downplay the bonds made on active duty. The demographics are younger on AD vs the guard, but my experience showed that they matched up pretty evenly on the dirtbag to pull-your-weight ratio.

There was plenty of this kind of "regaf" hate to go around- some of it was justified, and some of it fostered the rift between the two commands. It may have won the hearts of a couple disgruntled regaf recruits, if that's who you're targeting. When you make over the top statements statements like the Taliban quote above, what kind of message does that send?

Edited July 7, 2014 by sqwatch

[brickhistory]

"One" speaks only in the third person, which makes me believe you're too big a "game of thrones" fan, hammered, or reeling from liquid touching on a sore subject.

No one but you called retirees quitters but you.

Or one could simply disagree with the position and points made in the referenced post.

Much like I do with this one. The reference to a crappy show on a cable channel that I don't pay for, much less watch, seemed to not be relevant.

One can write in an older, more formal style freely. Not my problem if you don't like it.

So perhaps you, or even you as noted above, can differentiate between "quitters." The post I disliked did not.

Blanket statements draw blanket condemnation.

[matmacwc]

I've been in both, pluses and minuses to both. A lot stronger "band of brothers" in active duty, miss it a bit, see it on squadron TDYs sometimes. There is more opportunity in the ANG to venture outside the military but still stick around, more family time, more leaving the job at home. There is queep, just like AD, so don't think you are leaving that. Sqwatch had it right from the AD standpoint. As for flying, I think the ANG is mostly better, more flying and continuity, I average more than 10 a month in a Viper unit. However, the silverbacks can drag you down.

[sqwatch]

So perhaps you, or even you as noted above, can differentiate between "quitters." The post I disliked did not.

Touché. I'm all over the place this morning and am going to time out.

[chim richalds]

I would love to hear some examples of good "leadership" in the modern Air Force. If you say anything about blues Monday or morale patches I'm gonna come across the ing table.

[10percenttruth]

The reference to a crappy show on a cable channel that I don't pay for, much less watch, seemed to not be relevant.

You bite your tongue!

[Liquid]

Chim,

There have been many recent leadership failures (AFPC, AFGSC, Lackland, etc) but there are plenty of examples of good leadership and great leaders. It is too bad you haven't been around any.

Maj Gen Greg Lengyl, Commandant of Cadets. MH-53 pilot brought common sense, warfighter focus and empowered leadership to AFA

Gen Robin Rand AETC. One of the finest, most selfless, professional, tactically savvy leaders in our AF. Led the 332 AEW in Iraq 2006-2007.

Gen Hostage, ACC. Incredible combat leader, one of the best COMACCs.

Maj Gen (sel) Pete Gersten. Transformed RPA lethality at Creech and on ACC staff at Langley

Gen Paul Selva, TRANSCOM. Selfless, honest, intelligent MAF leader.

Brig Gen (sel) Rick Rupp, McConnell Wing Commander. Led by putting Airmen first, awarded O'Malley Award in '13

Maj Gen Jeff Harrigian, CENTCOM DJ3, aggressive, creative Airman leading in a very Army centric command.

Lt Gen John Hesterman, AFCENT/CFACC. Ready and willing to use airpower to bring any nation to their knees. A great leader doing a tremendous job in CC.

CMSgt Colon-Lopez, AFCENT/CCC, combat hardened PJ, no-nonsense enlisted leader. Would make a great CMSAF.

[hispeed7721]

CMSgt Colon-Lopez, AFCENT/CCC, combat hardened PJ, no-nonsense enlisted leader. Would make a great CMSAF.

CL was awesome during his time at HRT...Totally agree about him WRT CMSAF Edited July 8, 2014 by hispeed7721

[Homestar]

Almost all my Sq/CCs so far have been good to great leaders/people. It gets hard once you leave the local level to understand why leadership acts the way it does but I don't think it's fair to assume they're just a bunch of clowns. There is a certain amount of "company man" that comes with flag leadership, understandably, but ultimately, like politics, all leadership is local for me.

[euro2005]

Never been an exec, but I did actually approach the Wg/CC once and asked him about the issues with the club. I went up to him, beer in hand, and struck up a conversation and it turns out, he actually had a different perspective from me and the rest of the line-swine squadron pilots who kept chanting for leadership to simply bootstrap the entire thing and just "make it not suck."

Turns out, there's a budget, he explained. The quality of food and service shrinks with the budget, and it drives a downward spiral that's difficult to recover from. People stop going, membership drops. The budget gets cut more, membership dues get raised. More people stop going. It's like any other business. Most of it is tied directly to the budget, he said. A lot of it is tied to the leadership, which includes the MSG/CC, FSS/CC, and others. Ever bother to talk to those guys?

A lot of it is tied to the culture of the base, command, or even AF at the time, which he admitted was a tough challenge.

Was just reading this thread and came across the discussion about clubs. Here at Cannon, it's a mixed-rank club. Nobody hangs there unless it's for a function of some sort. I've had fun there but it's always for a function. I've never really gotten to experience the fun that used to happen at an AF O Club. But, I did get to experience it at NAS Pensacola! That O Club was awesome. It typically closed whenever the last folks left or when the barteder kicked us out because she wanted to go out and get drunk too! Lots of students...Navy pilots & NFOs and AF CSOs. Some of our instructors would go there too (not as frequent as the students but they would make their appearances). Also, every so often, the AF would have a pint night there just because we like to drink. $10 gets you a glass and 2 beers.

When I was there, the AF folks would typically close out the bar and we would take over the pool table to play games of crud. The Navy dudes would have their flight suit Friday most Fridays (and lots of AF people drank on their tab lol), we had our drop nights there (mine was in one of our hangars because the O Club was booked!) and in general many folks just went to go and drink and have a good time with friends. I highly doubt this particular club is having financial issues. Somehow, it works. Also, the bar area just looks like somewhere I would like to go drink. It's not super fancy and there's various squadron stickers all over the mirrors on the bar back. There's spots where people can hang their custom mugs and they can leave these mugs there (until they PCS I guess). Along one of the walls there's a strip of velcro with all of the patches from all the flights who have graduated, for both branches. The food is also decent. Not the best ever but certain things were pretty good. I miss that place. Yeah, definitely is not what is wrong with the AF...we need more places like this ;)

[hispeed7721]

Here at Cannon, it's a mixed-rank club.

But, I did get to experience it at NAS Pensacola! That O Club was awesome. Lots of students

we had our drop nights there (mine was in one of our hangars because the O Club was booked!)

All clubs (maybe not 100%, but nearly) are mixed rank now bc of $$ and lack of membership.

The O Club at PCola is not what the past AF O Clubs were at all...and the only reason tons of studs go there is because they can drink and walk across the street to on base housing.

The drop nights are required to be at the O Club (or at least they used to be), unless they have sh1tty planning (shocker, it happens all the time there) and must move elsewhere...drop nights don't happen there because of how "awesome" it is

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