Shut down Air War College

[BQZip01]

So instead of giving up "prestigious", if useless, institutions, we'll instead cut the number of F-22s, RIF officers, and mothball aircraft. It's fine, I'm sure the next war will be fought with harshly worded academic papers.

Isn't it already that way in Libya?

[Vetter]

Isn't it already that way in Libya?

I was going to say the same thing...actually, harshly worded academic papers would probably be more effective.

[ExBoneOSO]

I was going to say the same thing...actually, harshly worded academic papers would probably be more effective.

Just as long as those papers are followed up by a Powerpoint brief..

[osulax05]

Or else what?

[spaw2001]

I am not trying to be high and mighty and as a mobility pilot it has been a royal pain in the ass to juggle flying and masters work. Yet,I somewhat disagree with the fact that online education is worthless. Bottomline, it depends on what degree you get and from where. I am pretty interested in academia/follow news on it, and the Air Force's jacked up approach towards education is one of the main reasons why I chose to apply for VSP just recently. Some background info first: The going rate for a top-tier MBA is about $150,000 in-residence with tuition and room/board. The going rate for a top 15 law school is about $200,000 all said and done. A recent economist article argues an education bubble is approaching where going to school full time and accumulating massive debt with no salary is barely worth it anymore. Most argue they still are worth it at the current rate but the never-ending rising tuitions may change this soon. For example, law school apps are down 11% because graduated lawyers are finding themselves unemployed. This coupled with businesses simply not paying to release people for two years to snag a MBA and the increasing viability of online technology, are leading many schools to explore distance options. You would be shocked to see how many top schools offer distance degrees (See below). Somehow, however, the Air Force has created a culture where there is no emphasis on getting a quality education except for a few very specialized individuals. This is short-sighted considering combat leaders in other services such as Petraeus carry pretty gawdy degrees (PHD from Princeton). Yet, it is not all the Air Force's fault. Many officers are unwilling to commit the time or resources to actually research various programs and get a quality degree. It almost seems every officer nowadays enrolls into AMU at the same time they enroll in SOS-C. Come on, just like anything else, a REAL masters carries REAL time and monetary commitment but it also has real rewards. Yes, the Air Force tries to get us to do everything on our own time such as CBTs, PME, Masters, etc... but I would argue that a masters is not one of the areas to skimp on. We live in a bubble in the service. While exceptions always apply, today, a masters degree is virtually required in the outside world. In my masters, I have had the opportunity to attend several in-residencies. Meeting folks from other industries and up-bringings has been eye-opening and life-changing. I was surprised to see how qualified my peers were in the program and how, I believe, Air Force officers are falling behind with regards to breadth of experience. Unless you are gunning for an airline job, trying to enter the business world at a competitive salary with no real masters degree at around the age of 35 is going to be tough. Military experience will only get us so far.

The economist article: https://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2011/04/higher_education?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/anewbubble

A sample listing of programs from pretty damn good brick and mortar schools. Yes, many of these schools carry a high price tag, but this is off-set by the fact that you are making an income while going to school (google these programs for more info). Some have a couple of short in-residencies

Stanford-SCPD Honors Co-op through the engineering department

Columbia-CVN: Engineering

Duke-Cross continental MBA-top 10 MBA (several in-residencies required..tough option for pilots)

Indiana Univ-Kelley School-top-25 MBA

UNC-chapel hill: MBA@UNC-top-25 MBA

Northwestern-public policy masters

NYU-HR masters

Johns Hopkins-Communications masters

George Washington University-PR masters

Boston University-tons of stuff

Penn State-tons of stuff

Cornell University-Systems Engineering.

Dartmouth-Public Health through Tuck School of Business

[FallingOsh]

Unless you went to MIT, Stanford, or USC for an engineering degree (or maybe a Harvard for fuzzy type degrees), a much better academic program.

[bowe96]

1) Arrested development, 2) Females with an inflated sense of how attractive they are.

You forgot 3) an ingrained sense of "that's just how we've always done it" that is liberally applied to any new and innovative idea.

[Right Seat Driver]

While at the torturous but requisite shoeflag recently, the instructors said that ASBC is already getting shut down.

Hah, about time. I never went to ASBC but visited my wife when she went through. I ran into a Maj/Lt Col type that told me I would never make Major unless I was a "graduate" of ASBC. I guess the new Lts that will never go to ASBC are screwed too.

[nsplayr]

In almost any degree program, in my opinion, you get out what you put in. Granted reputation matters, but if you put in the work to be able to speak intelligently and credibly about what you learned and can connect that with the job you're trying to get then you're doing it right. The stigma of "online" versus "brick and mortar/real" is slowing going away and honestly there aren't a lot of other options for frequent deployers/TDYers. Like some people have said on here, if the AF were truly committed to having its officers getting good educations, there would be many more slots for full-time study from high-quality institutions. The system now gives the illusion of the AF caring about human capital and education, but instead just gives them one more data point to rack-and-stack people and puts money in the pockets of "military-friendly" online schools.

[Hacker]

if the AF were truly committed to having its officers getting good educations, there would be many more slots for full-time study from high-quality institutions.

This was Jumper's strategy...but TMike erased that strategy. At least someone at the top thought that was the right line of thought enough to actually make it USAF policy for a little while.

Long enough to screw some officers at promotion boards years later, at least, heh heh.

[ClearedHot]

I think the idea behind the whole "close the War Colleges" movement is that, for the cost, they do not provide a better education than civilian institutions and to the determent of those who attend, they breed a closed-minded, military-centric way of thinking. I have no idea if those claims are true and it's probably YMMV, but it's hard to argue that it would at least be cheaper to go the civilian route rather than running a whole institution internally. Same goes for the academies I guess...the burden is kind of on them to justify why the greater cost is worth it in terms of better products, a unique education, etc.

I've done PME inres every level (except ASBC not around for an old fart like me).

SOS was a waste, but that is because I was from an Ops background. I think the non-ops folks actually learned something about the Air Force, most did not know the types of airplanes we flew.

IDE was unfun...there were parts that had promise and I took a little time to understand the bigger picture in relation to political theories such as realism and liberalism. Beyond that, it was mostly a waste, but again because I came from an ops background.

ASG was simply the best academic experience I've ever had. Very small student body, world class instructors, heavy academic load (read 273 books in one year). We spend five days walking the beaches at Normandy with PhDs who had written their thesis about the landing and eventual breakout. We walked Belleau Wood with a young Frenchman who has adopted the battlefield and truly loves Americans and the fact that they came to save France...twice. We walked the beaches of the southern landings with another PhD who wrote THE book about that operation. We traveled to Vietnam and walked the battlefield of Khe Sahn, stood behind the wall in Hue City where LtGen Christmas won the Navy Cross...with LtGen Christmas, and I stood on the Paul Doumer Bridge...looked up and took a minute to wonder what it was like when my old man rolled in on the bridge in an F-4 with iron bombs, winning one of his won one of five DFCs.

SDE (not AWC), was a scratch because the leadership was so so...tough to revert to student mode and present a note for a doctors appt when your last assignment was as a Sq/CC. That being said, the access was unreal. We met personally with every service chief and got the chance to pick their brain. We spent time with SECDEF, a Supreme Court Justice, CJCS, Gen Pace, Gen Patraeus, Gen Zinni, and former President Bush (43).

Tom Ricks is an idiot, but beyond that he does not realize what INRES PME offers that you would never get at a civilian institution, the opportunity to work with the other services and pick their brains. My SDE calls had several graduated Battalion CC's that were just coming out (sts), of AFG and Iraq, their insights were invaluable. The curriculum is dry at times, but it does focus on aspects of the DIME that you would never get at a civilian institution. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford all have outstanding programs and yes some military officers would benefit, but we do need a cadre of officers that understands the military system. I am not saying the current system is perfect, but there is value.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

This was Jumper's strategy...but TMike erased that strategy. At least someone at the top thought that was the right line of thought enough to actually make it USAF policy for a little while.

The policy was probably erased because it was not sustainable. Sooner or later, the folks at Randolph would have been screaming for bodies. How many officers do you plan to have to keep up with real world deployment and full length PME school which for the most part are usually 9 - 10 months long? Also remember that this occurs for O-3 to O-6's so major cluster would have ensued. Our sister services are also not doing it for a reason. Even the USMC and USCG which are by far smaller cannot afford to send all their officers to full length PME. Don't forget the Reserve folks to.

[Hacker]

The policy was probably erased because it was not sustainable. Sooner or later, the folks at Randolph would have been screaming for bodies. How many officers do you plan to have to keep up with real world deployment and full length PME school which for the most part are usually 9 - 10 months long?

The policy was something on the order of, "if we want you to have an advanced degree (including PME), we'll send you to school to get one as your duty", not "we'll send everyone". Big difference.

[pawnman]

The policy was something on the order of, "if we want you to have an advanced degree (including PME), we'll send you to school to get one as your duty", not "we'll send everyone". Big difference.

You mean there was a time before "Every officer needs a Master's and PME in addition to conduction the actual mission of our service." ? That's crazy talk, like strippers at the O' Club and flying under bridges. I think you older guys make this stuff up.....

Not really. But I am jealous. Except of the guys who didn't do PME and didn't get an MBA because of the aforementioned policy and then got screwed down the line.

[Danny Noonin]

The policy was something on the order of, "if we want you to have an advanced degree (including PME), we'll send you to school to get one as your duty",

It was literally titled "No Practice Bleeding Policy" in the subject line of the memo. I used to have the policy letter posted over my desk. If you need a masters--we'll send you. Don't waste time with PME in correspondence unless you don't get picked up in residence. That policy was in effect until 2006-ish.

And Mosely didn't kill that policy, SECAF did.

[Hacker]

You mean there was a time before "Every officer needs a Master's and PME in addition to conduction the actual mission of our service." ? That's crazy talk, like strippers at the O' Club and flying under bridges. I think you older guys make this stuff up.....

Well, it was a couple-year window at least ('03 to '06 ish, IIRC). For all the time that I've been in previous to that, it was standard-standard just like it is now.

Not really. But I am jealous. Except of the guys who didn't do PME and didn't get an MBA because of the aforementioned policy and then got screwed down the line.

Yup, I was one of those dudes....I squandered a perfectly good AETC assignment where I could have been busting out ACSC and a Masters with relative ease, then when the policy changed I had to do both of those while in an operational assignment at the base with my MWS' highest OPTEMPO. FML. That was the point where I realized I needed some clarification on which of those 'vectors' from senior leadership I was supposed to follow and which I was supposed to scoff.

[BigE]

It was literally titled "No Practice Bleeding Policy" in the subject line of the memo. I used to have the policy letter posted over my desk. If you need a masters--we'll send you. Don't waste time with PME in correspondence unless you don't get picked up in residence. That policy was in effect until 2006-ish.

And Mosely didn't kill that policy, SECAF did.

Policy attached (Masking of Degrees - Practice Bleeding was a different message reminding Commanders to follow the attached). I actually thought the AF got this one right - until they changed their mind. And now we find ourselves in the situation we have today. Funny how both the Navy and Army have different views on PME and Masters. I understand Army sends 100% to in-residence IDE. And when at Leavenworth and want a Masters you have to take a ###### load of extra classes through an off site school - ie its not part of their JPME Level 1 program like our ACSC. The Navy doesn't really care if you go in-residence to Navy War College or not (IDE or SDE) - in fleet experience is more important for progression and command (imagine that). I heard a rumor Army was 100% promotion to O-5, no masters - doesn't matter - their retention sucks.

Unfortunately the attached policy never really took hold, probably because senior leaders (as low as OG and Wing CC) never got behind the idea - despite being told to do so and reminded thru the follow on 'stop Practice Bleeding' by LGen Brady. Hell, when I went to Shoe Flag their wasn't a DG program and talk was they were going to do the same for ACSC. Mindset being a DG at PME was over inflating careers and you should promote and progress based upon performance outside of a ######ing DG at a PME course. Don't know it its still true but there was a point when 100% went to SOS - if you didn't go in your 3 years of eligibility it was because the Wing screwed you - not because there wasn't slots.

Policy resending the attached had something to the effect of 'we didn't realize how many people were going to stop pursuing advanced education" as a reason to bring it back. Which should have told you how many people were square filling. Verse what Jumper said for how we promote: "Promotion is, and will continue to be, determined by your performance and demonstrated leadership potential to serve in the next higher grade." I like that. Too bad it doesn't seem to be the case. The practice bleeding policy was eventually overturned as well - essentially admitting that the AF can't develop officers properly so you may get ######ed even if a select and Commander's should encourage all officers to get correspondence PME done ASAP. I know a guy who got Ops Deferred to IDE because of instructor manning at the WIC - not because of a deployment to war - because they couldn't manage IP manning properly so they Ops Defer a guy to stick around and teach a syllabus - what a joke.

We seem to have gone off the deep end - Lts signing up for SOS (WTF!!!), Captains thinking they won't get promoted if they don't have a Masters, etc. Talk about having your tactical level experts (or those who should be devoting all their efforts to same) wasting brain bites on the wrong things. Give it a bit - 5 bucks this policy will come back cause the current situation and trend is worse than it was before. Meanwhile you might get screwed at a promotion. But life if about choices - and you have to decide what is important - the classic Boyd - do you want to do something or be somebody? I had a CC who used to say - its not a difficult game - but its still a game. And the absolute best argument I ever heard about doing correspondence PME when told you're going in residence -- or getting a Masters when you'll get it at same in-residance PME -- is you might actually learn something. Which is great - till you're missing time with your family or the rest of us are picking up your slack in the squadron because 'ever Tues after 1500' you're at class.

For what its worth - here's my example and where it got me with this game. I didn't do SOS by correspondence but did sign up and put the books on my desk - went in residence. Don't have a Master's or ACSC by correspondence - currently sitting at German General Staff in Hamburg, Germany after spending a year at DLI in Monterey, CA attempting to learn German. 3 years as a student (German IDE is 2 years) means I won't be complete by my IPZ look at O-5 and have the same Narrative Only PRF meeting 3 promotion boards from summer 2009. I'll let you know how the O-5 promotion works out - but it really doesn't matter - if I don't get promoted I might actually be able to get back to flying quicker and stay flying longer.

Do a kick ass job in your current squadron/mission - work to be on the short list when the Boss puts together the line up for night one. The rest will take care of its self. If it doesn't your leadership sucks - which is unfortunate for all of us - but the bros know who does it right (sts) and who doesn't - if you have your priorities right you won't care. And remember being a bro doesn't mean you're a slug that only drinks beer and plays 4,5,6 - it means you know what is important and what is bullshit and are an asset not a liability in the air and in the squadron. As others have said on these boards, you should know how the process works and then you can make informed decisions about what is important to you in life.

E

Force Development - Changing the Education Mindset.pdf

[Champ Kind]

work to be on the short list when the Boss puts together the line up for night one.

This.

[Ram]

BigE - excellent post.

[noodles]

More great stories out of AWC (yes, taken from Rick's blog)

[Guest crankdat]

I thought Gen K's comment about "online programs" was interesting since they just recently started an online master's program...

[OverTQ]

I heard a rumor Army was 100% promotion to O-5, no masters - doesn't matter - their retention sucks.

That's the kinda stuff that just gets me worked up. That is pure and utter BS spread by Big Green haters. It was actually 95.6%.

[Rusty Pipes]

The policy was probably erased because it was not sustainable. Sooner or later, the folks at Randolph would have been screaming for bodies. How many officers do you plan to have to keep up with real world deployment and full length PME school which for the most part are usually 9 - 10 months long? Also remember that this occurs for O-3 to O-6's so major cluster ###### would have ensued. Our sister services are also not doing it for a reason. Even the USMC and USCG which are by far smaller cannot afford to send all their officers to full length PME. Don't forget the Reserve folks to.

You're missing something important here... The Army and Marines (not sure about the Navy) don't send their "fast burners" to school in-Res. I don't have service stats so this is word of mouth, but I have good friends in the Army and Marines that I was deployed with who said that pretty much anyone who wants to go to school in-Res can go, but it is looked at often as someone "taking a year off from the fight". They didn't really undersatnd the AF mentality... "Why would you ever take what you consider your best leaders and take them away from leading your folks to send them to school for a year and then to a staff job for another 3 years after?" I didn't have a good answer for that other than the fact that most of the folks that they would consider actual leaders get out of the Air Force as soon as they can because they refuse to deal with the BS!

[GoAround]

You're missing something important here... The Army and Marines (not sure about the Navy) don't send their "fast burners" to school in-Res. I don't have service stats so this is word of mouth, but I have good friends in the Army and Marines that I was deployed with who said that pretty much anyone who wants to go to school in-Res can go, but it is looked at often as someone "taking a year off from the fight". They didn't really undersatnd the AF mentality... "Why would you ever take what you consider your best leaders and take them away from leading your folks to send them to school for a year and then to a staff job for another 3 years after?" I didn't have a good answer for that other than the fact that most of the folks that they would consider actual leaders get out of the Air Force as soon as they can because they refuse to deal with the BS!

Your comment would be sorta correct for the Navy in some cases, but incorrect about the Army and Marines.

The Army sends all their O-4's to ILE (our version to IDE). They have a 3-4 month school and a year long school in Leavenworth. The Marines are like the USAF...they send their top 20%, mainly to Quantico.

[Rusty Pipes]

Unless you went to MIT, Stanford, or USC for an engineering degree (or maybe a Harvard for fuzzy type degrees), a much better academic program.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think we need a little reality check here. USAFA is ranked the #5 in the country (behind West Point) for engineering. But read the fine print... it is #5 for schools that only offer an undergraduate degree in engineering. Obviously there is no option to get an advanced degree from any service school, but you're comparing apples to oranges because the stat you are most likely referring to only compares them to other undergrad only programs. I'm not saying that they don't have a good engineering program (they do). However, when you look at the list that compares all of the overall engineering programs at US colleges and universities the list from US News on college rankings goes from #1-129... USAFA/USNA/USMA aren't on it. What is on the list are dozens of State colleges and universities that have AFROTC programs. I don't think USAFA should be shut down by any means, but lets not speed by putting USAFA in the same sentence with MIT, Stanford, or USC... or University of Michigan, Arizona State, University of Florida, University of Texas Austin, University of Maryland, University of Massachusetts (Amherst and Lowell), University of Missouri, etc... all public schools with AFROTC Detachments that ARE in the top 100, just to name a few.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Rusty Pipes