Navy Pilots Flew Helicopters Into Lake Tahoe for Facebook Picture [Video]

[Vice]

http://www.switched.com/2010/12/27/navy-pilots-flew-helicopters-into-lake-tahoe-for-facebook-pictur/

When two Navy helicopters unexpectedly landed at Lake Tahoe Airport on September 13th, they did so with half a million dollars in damages. Even more unexpected, an ensuing Navy investigation has found that the damage was caused by the crafts' two pilots and their decision to hover just above the surface of Lake Tahoe -- so that they could post the pictures to Facebook, no less. (Did we mention that MH-60 Romeo helicopters can't really hover over water?) After falling into the lake, the choppers were able to regain enough power to limp over to the airport.

Both helicopters' crews have gotten their comeuppance for the crash, but the Navy has been characteristically austere in its statements. "The investigation identified the decision of the aircraft commanders to conduct hovers over Lake Tahoe without completing the necessary engine performance calculations as the causal factor for the mishap," stated a release. Officially, the Navy has stripped the two pilots of their flying status, and forced the two student pilots to repeat their training. (Unofficially, we'd imagine that the first part entails the most demeaning assignment imaginable, and that the second part involves a more aggressive pedantic approach.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYExH8hpgXI&feature=player_embedded

Edited December 28, 2010 by Vice

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

idiots

[Fud]

"I didn't know they could do that" is my favorite quote in that video.

[Champ Kind]

Hey bad press is still press, right?

[alwyn2d]

The aircraft commanders are both permanently grounded. Perhaps that's what's needed to get someones attention. The 2 Navy F-18A pilots that flew low over the GA Tech football game last year loss there wings as well. It's amazing that during the Army Navy football game in Dec, the Navy's flight of 4 F-18 flyby could be hardly seen. I guess some people got the word. Maybe its time to put military aviation in the NFL. That's the No Fun League. If you think the services are getting chicken shit, get out and fly for the airlines. But remember if you bust their regs like flying 150 miles pass your destination while on your laptop you'll get fired too. I guess flying is a serious business.

Any course of action on the T-38 flight of 4 flyby as of yet? If they flew at the proper altitude they should be given a written apology. They have been put through the ringer. If the flight lead intentionally flew low on his final flight, he needs to be permanently grounded even for the ANG/Res. And if the FAA warrants a flight violation, hopefully that will kill his commercial aviation career. I assume he was an exceptional Officer and pilot but his grounding will serve another purpose. That's to have a positive impact on other aviators to follow the regulations.

Don't even want to write about the C-17 crash in Alaska. And I won't. Does anyone see a trend here, and how do you lessen it?

Edited December 30, 2010 by alwyn2d

[OverTQ]

Hover power checks over water. Nice.

[Bergman]

The aircraft commanders are both permanently grounded. Perhaps that's what's needed to get someones attention. The 2 Navy F-18A pilots that flew low over the GA Tech football game last year loss there wings as well. It's amazing that during the Army Navy football game in Dec, the Navy's flight of 4 F-18 flyby could be hardly seen. I guess some people got the word. Maybe its time to put military aviation in the NFL. That's the No Fun League. If you think the services are getting chicken shit, get out and fly for the airlines. But remember if you bust their regs like flying 150 miles pass your destination while on your laptop you'll get fired too. I guess flying is a serious business.

Any course of action on the T-38 flight of 4 flyby as of yet? If they flew at the proper altitude they should be given a written apology. They have been put through the ringer. If the flight lead intentionally flew low on his final flight, he needs to be permanently grounded even for the ANG/Res. And if the FAA warrants a flight violation, hopefully that will kill his commercial aviation career. I assume he was an exceptional Officer and pilot but his grounding will serve another purpose. That's to have a positive impact on other aviators to follow the regulations.

Don't even want to write about the C-17 crash in Alaska. And I won't. Does anyone see a trend here, and how do you lessen it?

Lighten up, Francis.

There is a big f-ing difference between flying low during a football flyby and over-flying your destination by 150 miles.

Fly low, fly loud...and just maybe inspire some pride and awe in what we do. A 1500' flyby doesn't achieve that. In fact, likely the opposite: "What are those clowns doing so high up there?" as opposed to "That was BAD ASS!"

[Fud]

Lighten up, Francis.

2...I think someone needs to revise the AFI at the NAF/MAJCOM level so the minimum AGL and whatever else are way lower, but still safe.

I wonder if there will ever be a pred/reaper flyover though. Everyone would love it until the satellite feeds went out and half of a stadium was engulfed in flames.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

2...I think someone needs to revise the AFI at the NAF/MAJCOM level so the minimum AGL and whatever else are way lower, but still safe.

I wonder if there will ever be a pred/reaper flyover though. Everyone would love it until the satellite feeds went out and half of a stadium was engulfed in flames.

Not trying to be a stick in the mud but the AFI 11-202V3 minimum altitudes are based off of FAR 91 altitudes. 1000 feet within 2000 feet horizontally in congested areas and 500 feet in non-congested areas are civilian standard as well. Here's an extract:

Sec. 91.119 — Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

© Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or © of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph © of this section.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Hueypilot812

[capt4fans]

The aircraft commanders are both permanently grounded. Perhaps that's what's needed to get someones attention. The 2 Navy F-18A pilots that flew low over the GA Tech football game last year loss/(LOST) there/(THEIR) wings as well. It's amazing that during the Army Navy football game in Dec, the Navy's flight of 4 F-18 flyby could be hardly seen. I guess some people got the word. Maybe its time to put military aviation in the NFL. That's the No Fun League. If you think the services are getting chicken shit, get out and fly for the airlines. But remember if you bust their regs like flying 150 miles pass/(PAST) your destination while on your laptop you'll get fired too. I guess flying is a serious business.

Any course of action on the T-38 flight of 4 flyby as of yet? If they flew at the proper altitude they should be given a written apology. They have been put through the ringer. If the flight lead intentionally flew low on his final flight, he needs to be permanently grounded even for the ANG/Res. And if the FAA warrants a flight violation, hopefully that will kill his commercial aviation career. I assume he was an exceptional Officer and pilot but his grounding will serve another purpose. That's to have a positive impact on other aviators to follow the regulations.

Don't even want to write about the C-17 crash in Alaska. And I won't. Does anyone see a trend here, and how do you lessen it?

Grammar much??????

And the trend is that you're a douche......go kill yourself.

[Chuck17]

Don't even want to write about the C-17 crash in Alaska. And I won't. Does anyone see a trend here, and how do you lessen it?

Why not? We could use a few more opinions....

There IS a trend. The trend is that in a few cases, dudes disregarded the rules for whatever reasons and got burned. Some died.

Show me one period of aviation history where that HASN'T happened. There's a reason rules are rules is all I'm saying. The vast majority of experienced aviators, and dare I say officers, know that there is wiggle room in any set of rules giving operators more than enough room to maneuver or hang yourself. The choice is ultimately up to the operator.

Ive flown with guys who knew every goddamned line of the V3 by heart. They could quote the 11-202 like scripture. And when they came upon a decision or mission that required them to THINK rather than recite, to decide how far to BFM the rules... they froze. Literally, stopped thinking - inability to make a decision.

Rules are necessary. And strict adherence to regulation is not practical in all cases. If you want to be an automaton that doesn't have to think, this job ain't for you. Check that - you could always be a ground safety officer (don't get me started) or a SNCO on shoe/sock/lightbelt patrol at a deployed location earning your Bronze Star...

Bottom line - there are times when rules don't apply and you have to manage the risk/reward benefit (thats what they sent you to all that training for): when lives are on the line, combat, emergency, etc. Airshows and flybys ain't on the list.

Chuck

[Vice]

Ive flown with guys who knew every goddamned line of the V3 by heart. They could quote the 11-202 like scripture. And when they came upon a decision or mission that required them to THINK rather than recite, to decide how far to BFM the rules... they froze. Literally, stopped thinking - inability to make a decision.

Rules are necessary. And strict adherence to regulation is not practical in all cases. If you want to be an automaton that doesn't have to think, this job ain't for you. Check that - you could always be a ground safety officer (don't get me started) or a SNCO on shoe/sock/lightbelt patrol at a deployed location earning your Bronze Star...

Major "aha" moment for me right there. Thanks dude.

[ol-IEWO]

Bottom line - there are times when rules don't apply and you have to manage the risk/reward benefit (thats what they sent you to all that training for): when lives are on the line, combat, emergency, etc. Airshows and flybys ain't on the list.

Chuck

Such as tanker crews ignoring the rules and flying into high threat areas to refuel SAR aircraft.

[HuggyU2]

Such as tanker crews ignoring the rules and flying into high threat areas to refuel SAR aircraft.

Possibly.

Or maybe using your aircraft to push a flamed-out aircraft into friendlier territory, knowing that it will mean you will have to eject too due to fuel starvation.

[matmacwc]

Possibly.

Or maybe using your aircraft to push a flamed-out aircraft into friendlier territory, knowing that it will mean you will have to eject too due to fuel starvation.

Pardo had balls, but me thinks there is some shenanigans that led up to Pardo's Push.

Alright, how could water make the difference in a hover? Not a rotor-cranium so I just don't get it.

Edited January 3, 2011 by matmacwc

[Herk Driver]

Pardo had balls, but me thinks there is some shenanigans that led up to Pardo's Push.

Alright, how could water make the difference in a hover? Not a rotor-cranium so I just don't get it.

I thought both Pardo's and Aman's planes were hit in a bombing run. Aman just happened to be hit in a fuel tank and so he couldn't make the tanker so instead of let him bailout over bad guy land, Pardo pushed him to less bad guy land. Is there more to the story?

2 on the hover checks. Is it just that sh!t happens when doing this so doing it over water is not real smart?

[Breckey]

Lake Tahoe is pretty high up so they may not have not had hover power available at their gross weight. Also those maneuvers that they were doing didn't help their power situation any better.

[Guest]

2 on the hover checks. Is it just that sh!t happens when doing this so doing it over water is not real smart?

No, you're not supposed to hit the ground (or the water) during a hover power check.

[Skyclops]

No, you're not supposed to hit the ground (or the water) during a hover power check.

Learn something new everyday

[stract]

resident exchange pilot squid summed it up pretty well for us: in the Navy, you are always flying around at sea level, so your power is always better than when you took off from the boat. The concept of re-calc'ing power is thus foreign to them, and they don't do much high-altitude stuff.

[GovernmentMan]

I guess. It's not much of an excuse, though. T-1s usually fly around with empty cabins, but the crew would be no less stupid to completely space the difference in TOLD during that one day where they actually have something in the back.

[RescueRandy]

I guess. It's not much of an excuse, though. T-1s usually fly around with empty cabins, but the crew would be no less stupid to completely space the difference in TOLD during that one day where they actually have something in the back.

You're absolutely right. Any professional (or non-professional) helicopter pilot knows that rotor is life and in order to maintain rotor, except for autorotation, you need power (duh). All helo pilots should know to recompute their power numbers before coming anywhere close to that lake, and if they indeed failed to do so, they deserve to lose their wings. These guys are lucky to be alive, in a landable aircraft, let alone still in the Navy.

[Learjetter]

True--the penalty for CFIT is either loss of life or wings...too bad you don't always get to choose...

[Guest]

True--the penalty for CFIT is either loss of life or wings...too bad you don't always get to choose...

The best you can do is tie the low altitude record. It'll cost you your life 99.69% of the time.

The concept of re-calc'ing power is thus foreign to them...

Seriously?

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Seriously?

Yeah, no joke. I flew Hueys in Louisiana (ie, at/below sea level) for my long, illustrious career as a helo driver, and we knew how to run the charts and figure out IGE/OGE hover power. It's not that difficult.