Gen Welsh - USAF Chief of Staff

[Tonka]

On 1/11/2016 at 9:18 PM, Bender said:

man...did you somehow think year 5 was some sort of ing feat? If simply being in year 5 was supposed to somehow incentivize you, I have no idea where you're coming from. You should still have been teeth to the stone, ing shit up at that point. Come to think of it, you should be balls to the ing wall all the time (O-3 or O-5, or whatever), in the military or out, or you aren't one of these "keepers" Ratner is talking about.
 

No, I didn't, that was the point I poorly made... 4 years in, here's another promotion... should that continue all the way to 20 and beyond though? Because that seems like a poor system.  If you don't incentivize folks to "perform" at a minimum level then there will be a dramatic increase of "why-should-I-work-harder-if-we-all-get-promoted-regardless" attitude.  Why should I be "balls to the ing wall all the time" when I will get paid and promoted the same regardless?

I agree with your sentiments, I was just trying to put some freakonomics principles to it.

On 1/11/2016 at 9:18 PM, Bender said:

... or just a lot of overly sensitive, it didn't work out the way I wanted, crying it's the system and not me bullshit...

I have no idea how you interpreted this from what I or others wrote as I was mostly providing my guess at what a promotion by attrition principle would entail.  Additionally, I don't get that attitude where I work at all (nor do I feel that way!)  Most folks are being rode hard and put away wet.

There is a dedication to service and then there is "Welcome back from the 180, it didn't reset your 365 clock though... you leave next week."  There is getting tough when the going gets rough and then there is 14 years of it.  I have not once witnessed a single person that I thought was "quitting" with a whiny, piss-ant attitude... rather it was: they get out or they would have physically or mentally broken down (I've seen it in their eyes), they'll lose their spouse and family because they weren't going to go through it again, or they paid their dues and wanted to move on to do something different.

On 1/11/2016 at 9:18 PM, Bender said:

There are PLENTY of sharp, motivated, hard working Airmen, NCOs, SNCOs, CGOs, and FGOs I've had the privilege of working with all the way up until now...I like my team, but I do agree the coaching staff could do a better job.

Spot on... I would say this is true for the majority.

[Bender]

I have no idea how you interpreted this from what I or others wrote...

Sometimes things aren't an argument or a retort, but rather a personal expansion beyond (perhaps away from) your point which was initially quoted. Sorry, man...I could have "de-quoted" you or made it more clear. My disconnect is more general/philosophical, certainly not (as far as I know) with you...

Promotions beyond O-3 aren't automatic, but I would agree that the percentages are high (for O-4/O-5). That said, what's to change here, assuming change is required to incentivize the officer corps?

In my opinion, the change required is whatever is making promotion a required incentive. I speak only for myself, but I would do my job no less well knowing I was not going to make O-5. It only means I won't get to serve any longer...this isn't the greatest job on earth for most (there are some people who truly love to fly jets or code computers for reduced wages, sure)...it's still service, still sacrifice, still costs way too much for most, everything for some. The average price is too high at this point; we need a discount soon or we'll go broke.

Not being able to sustain family life is a legitimate concern and one I think should be a source of attention and concern for leadership at all levels...that said, you should feel lucky to have that at the Squadron level in this Air Force, you don't have it higher then that.

Senior leadership of the service can't even suggest taking the foot off the gas pedal, the combatant commands aren't going to suggest it (perhaps more rightfully so), but either way...we send many, many, many Airmen into tailspins that can't be recovered without ejection.

I see definitely see a lot more selfies and self-aggrandizement from above than I do selfishness from below. Maybe not as disconnected as I think sometimes; although, if we're here to do the job, we're all going to do the absolute fucking best to do it...we'll try our best to bring the marriages, children, some of the girlfriends, hookers, and booze with us out the other side.

That was an appropriate place for an Oxford comma,

Bendy

[Champ Kind]

if we're here to do the job, we're all going to do the absolute fucking best to do it...we'll try our best to bring the marriages, children..with us out the other side

Absolutely the wrong answer.

[MooseAg03]

if we're here to do the job, we're all going to do the absolute ing best to do it...we'll try our best to bring the marriages, children..with us out the other side

Absolutely the wrong answer.

Exactly, my wife and children will still be here long after I'm out of the Air Force. Which do you think I spend more time on? The one that won't miss me a bit the day after I leave or retire, or the ones who will be here until the day I die? Easy choice for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bender]

You do what you do when you put on your uniform for the Air Force? This what was just implied and to use Champ's words, "absolutely the wrong answer." This might be part of our collective problem right there. You should be doing it for your family and your family's families, as distinctly and directly as it could possibly be. If you are doing it for the Air Force itself, it's just a job and you should make your snappy quips to the management at Delta or Costco. You've lost your way in serving your country and need to recage or separate.

To do your best to care for families and bring them with us out the other side is "absolutely the wrong answer"? You think we should, specifically as a service to our country put ourselves (by proxy our families) first? Interesting prism...you can put your family first by going to work at Costco. We need to do better, I absolutely agree, but if "trying our best" is "absolutely the wrong answer" (particularly when that's all you have to offer) it as hollow as the guide we're currently possessed with.

It's not an all or nothing, or a "you're all in" (a statement I loathe by the way). However, if you are going to go out of your way to avoid hardship while others bear it...get the fuck out of the way. If you think what you do isn't important to the welfare of the people and principles you thought you protected when you signed up all the years ago...get the fuck out of the way.

I think your family is important. I also think this work we do is important. If you leave it up to Big Blue to take care of your family, you're a fuck tard. Make the choices you need to make, if it's too much for you, step aside and let someone else with more flexibility step in to help. There is a massive gray area here when almost everyone is threading the line of maintaining the Homefront while executing the down range mission...it's on you to work it out, all you should ask of someone else is their honest best to balance things.

There is and will never be any doubt who one would chose if you had to choose one or the other...if there was, you should probably file for divorce (Oklahoma is a good place for that I hear).

Give me a fucking break, Champ. Sometimes you're such a tool.

You know I know you're not, but sometimes...

Bendy

[Champ Kind]

Dude, you're all over the place. Not arguing semantics with you because I don't want to subject everyone to another stream of consciousness wall of tl;dr text. Your post implies that the AF was the priority in that we should "do our absolutely best" at the job but "try" to have the family on the other side. Then you get all sentimental and say we do it "for" our families.

Like I said, you're all over the place. And if I'm a tool for prioritizing my family, then call me Craftsmen because I will put them first every single time. Disengaging from this conversation.

[MooseAg03]

I made a decision early on after seeing too many pissed off senior leaders with multiple ex wives that I was not going to sacrifice my family for career. Don't get me wrong, I'm good at what I do and I fight for my guys every day. I'm just not going to be the doormat that volunteers for every shit sandwich because I realize how broken the system is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HossHarris]

And the equation changes from new young guy, to young married guy, to guy with kids, to old grey beard with kids. 

Different priorities for each. 

[SnapLock]

My opinion, in my own little corner of the AF, that I've spent a decade in is that there is a lot more selfishness in the AF than altruism at all levels.  I joined to serve my country and to do something that I thought I would love and had always dreamed of doing.  To my surprise I have rarely heard or seen anyone talking about doing this to serve their country or that this is something we do for our families.  Instead, I see and hear rampant careerism, poor morale, people throwing away their integrity to get ahead and a whole lot of back stabbing to get ahead of the next guy.  I have been stabbed in the back more times than I can count and can't believe some of the b.s. I have seen be our senior leadership.  Remind me again why I should keep doing this for my family?  Remind me why I should deploy to "serve my country" when I am only making power point slides or fighting in a "war" that we aren't fighting to win? 

[Duck]

I joined to serve my Country and protect my family, but my priority has been and always will be Faith, Family, Country and the the Air Force, in that order. The problem is that the Air Force is constantly pitting Air Force members in a position where they are forced to choose between their family and Active Duty, and too many times it is due to deployed kingdom building or pointless tasking that some O-6 or higher refuses to get rid of. In those cases I see people become disillusioned with AD and choose to take their talents elsewhere, mostly to the Guard or Reserves where they feel they can better shield their family from AD careerism and the bloody trail it leaves behind.

[Lord Ratner]

You've lost your way in serving your country and need to recage or separate

Perhaps it is the organization that has lost its way.

I believe that the overwhelming majority of the people on this board and the AF believe what you said, that putting the mission first is also protecting your family. But that implies "the mission" involves a threat to our country and our way of life. The very existence of this conversation is evidence that some members doubt that connection.

Nowhere else in America do leaders blame groups of disenfranchised employees for their collective disgruntlement. It violates nearly every theory of organizational leadership, many of which the AF teaches.

AF leaders have the burden of their choices potentially leading to death, not an easy or remotely common consideration for a leader to accept. Unfortunately there is almost no accountability for the less dramatic organizational leadership decisions made everyday by senior officers (O-5 and above) who-- by the very nature of our promotions and assignments system-- have no experience in the position they are in.

Manning problems are never the peons' fault.

[slackline]

Unfortunately there is almost no accountability for the less dramatic organizational leadership decisions made everyday by senior officers (O-5 and above) who-- by the very nature of our promotions and assignments system-- have no experience in the position they are in.

Manning problems are never the peons' fault.

That's funny of you think O-5 qualifies as senior leadership. Sq cmd is a great spot for leaders, but that is the last time an O-5 has any real-ish power.

[Lord Ratner]

That's funny of you think O-5 qualifies as senior leadership. Sq cmd is a great spot for leaders, but that is the last time an O-5 has any real-ish power.

I'm using the term (senior officer, not senior leadership as you said) loosely. Sq command is the first level of meaningful organizational leadership.

[Duck]

Until you realize how powerless your SQ/CC really is... It's sad really.

[Bender]

Dude, you're all over the place. Not arguing semantics with you because I don't want to subject everyone to another stream of consciousness wall of tl;dr text. Your post implies that the AF was the priority in that we should "do our absolutely best" at the job but "try" to have the family on the other side. Then you get all sentimental and say we do it "for" our families.

Like I said, you're all over the place. And if I'm a tool for prioritizing my family, then call me Craftsmen because I will put them first every single time. Disengaging from this conversation.

If you want to try and take something complicated and make it binary, perhaps disengagement is the best course of action. Making it binary is the exact reason people bitch about it to begin with. All over the place my ass...

I made a decision early on after seeing too many pissed off senior leaders with multiple ex wives that I was not going to sacrifice my family for career. Don't get me wrong, I'm good at what I do and I fight for my guys every day. I'm just not going to be the doormat that volunteers for every shit sandwich because I realize how broken the system is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good on ya, Moose. Question for you: How do you mean it when you say career? This gets said all the time, to me it's as if people commissioned or enlisted with 20 year commitments. Doing things "for your career" (family being only one of many things/reasons and certainly the least sinister among them) is yet another of the exact reasons people bitch about it to begin with.

And the equation changes from new young guy, to young married guy, to guy with kids, to old grey beard with kids. 

Different priorities for each. 

I like this one...and those making any decision (should) be well aware. To me, as soon as the the equation is no longer in your favor or at least balanced, it's time to punch. Your "career" is terminated.

Bendy

[Bender]

But that implies "the mission" involves a threat to our country and our way of life.

Well there is the meat of it, isn't it. Would we have this conversation in a peacetime force? Hypothetical, of course...

I agree there is a tenuous connection to a threat to our country and its way of life...but, you of all people should know, there is a very real connection to the life of young Americans who are on the ground in very dangerous situations. I can't say I'd include a 179 to PowerPoint in that...a deployed billet audit and restructuring is needed and it boggles my mind this hasn't happened yet.

Never at any time have I ever seen a complete disregard for the well being of the service member or their family affairs...maybe other communities have higher tempos than the one I just left, where such luxuries aren't available or sought. If so, that it grade A bullshit and I'd walk too.

Bendy

[Lord Ratner]

I agree there is a tenuous connection to a threat to our country and its way of life...but, you of all people should know, there is a very real connection to the life of young Americans who are on the ground in very dangerous situations.

Bendy

I assume you're referring to my MC-12 time (were you there when I was? ). I loved what we did there. The direct support to the ground pounders, be it convoy overwatch or more direct support during hostilities, was amazingly rewarding. Way more of a "I'm part of the fight" feel than my time as a FAIP or tanker pilot.

But while the individual experience of the MC-12 was very rewarding, I can't say it did much for my (and others') opinion of the overall military effort.

I think (purely speculative) that's what we're seeing today. People still believe in the mission of their unit or the MWS, but not in what it is being used for. Maslow's higher needs can't be fulfilled this way, making it harder to have a high-functioning organization.

The U.S. chose to have an all volunteer force. That means it has to run it (in many ways) like other voluntary operations. Telling people their opinions and feelings are misguided (or selfish!) is a failure of empathy, and thus a failure of leadership.

Say what you will about the conflict between empathy and the "killing people and breaking their stuff" military badass mindset, it matters. Especially when fewer people think their integrity, service, excellence, and lives are being spent on worthwhile endeavors, the bond between leader and follower is even more critical.

[MooseAg03]

Just to re-cage for a bit...has everyone started counting the teeth on their flight suit zipper? Summer's coming soon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Champ Kind]

JQP posted on his FB page last week a rumor that serious consideration is being given to Gen Hyten (Space Command CC)

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/108115/general-john-e-hyten.aspx

[di1630]

Very little the USAF is doing these days is about keeping America "safe". I was drinking beers the other night with some civilian peers...they barely know about ISIS, think we are done with Iraq and forgot about Afghanistan.

Call me to deploy and make sacrifices when we have some strategic objectives for the country and you need my help to solve it. Otherwise, I'll bow out if given the choice.

You want a ppt monkey at the CAOC, GFY. Want me to train afghanis to fly...GFY.

If you wAnt me to sacrifice my life/family happiness, it better be for more than tax-free and to keep doing the failed strategy we have been going on 15+ years. Otherwise it's just a paycheck, no guilt.

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, di1630 said:

Very little the USAF is doing these days is about keeping America "safe". I was drinking beers the other night with some civilian peers...they barely know about ISIS, think we are done with Iraq and forgot about Afghanistan.

Call me to deploy and make sacrifices when we have some strategic objectives for the country and you need my help to solve it. Otherwise, I'll bow out if given the choice.

You want a ppt monkey at the CAOC, GFY. Want me to train afghanis to fly...GFY.

If you wAnt me to sacrifice my life/family happiness, it better be for more than tax-free and to keep doing the failed strategy we have been going on 15+ years. Otherwise it's just a paycheck, no guilt.

[bb17]

I've read through most of this thread and just see nonstop complaints about how bad everything is. Full disclosure: I'm an FNG so i don't know jack about the Air Force yet so I am not judging anybody for how they feel. But having worked as a consultant in the private sector for nearly a decade I have to admit that the civilian world is usually a cluster as well so the grass isn't exactly greener. When rushing squadrons, my observations were that AF officers (at least Guard/Reserve) seem to be happier and overall have a better quality of life than some office drone grinding away for 60/hrs a week in a cubicle.

Are most of these complaints geared towards the AD side of things? I'm going reserves so my plan is to serve the squadron in a part time capacity to the best of my abilities - with realistic expectations and realizing that as an O-1 I'm the part of the totem pole that sticks in the ground and will be for the foreseeable future - meanwhile doing part time consulting as time allows on my own schedule. I think this would provide good flexibility and hopefully limit some of the heartburn that seems to be prevalent. Please feel free to tell me if this is really stupid and naive. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by bb17

[hispeed7721]

words

Through all the complaining, there are some very real issues with the AF. Some of it is just the kind of sport bitching you'll find in any career field. I'm AD and have been for my entire time. I personally don't have a whole lot of complaints, but there are a few.

It seems like you're at least ahead of some guys, understanding that you're not going to show up day 1 and have it all figured out. There's some unavoidable naivety, but that comes with anything. There's some great guard bros here that can help you out with that side of things, but really just don't show up and act like a douche and you'll be off on the right foot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChkHandleDn]

26 minutes ago, bb17 said:

 When rushing squadrons, my observations were that AF officers (at least Guard/Reserve) seem to be happier and overall have a better quality of life than some office drone grinding away for 60/hrs a week in a cubicle.

Probably because they were also airline pilots.  I know I'm a lot happier now since leaving AD.  I have much more QUALITY time home with my kid now that I've left and that's with commuting to both jobs.

[bb17]

35 minutes ago, hispeed7721 said:

Through all the complaining, there are some very real issues with the AF. Some of it is just the kind of sport bitching you'll find in any career field. I'm AD and have been for my entire time. I personally don't have a whole lot of complaints, but there are a few.

It seems like you're at least ahead of some guys, understanding that you're not going to show up day 1 and have it all figured out. There's some unavoidable naivety, but that comes with anything. There's some great guard bros here that can help you out with that side of things, but really just don't show up and act like a douche and you'll be off on the right foot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you think a big part of it is that the typical AF pilot is a Type A personality that just has to have it their way - the "BK way" as Rainman used to say? Similar to my consulting profession where the more senior engineers you get involved in a project the worse the project ended up turning out because nobody wanted to be second in line and the end result was just a collage of conflicting ideas. Meanwhile our lower-level technicians, who actually are the backbone of the company in my opinion and produce most of the work, couldn't be happier with how things operate. When I listen to Gen Welsh's speeches it sounds like he is very level headed and the AF he wants is not the AF he has. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by bb17