Gen Welsh - USAF Chief of Staff

[FallingOsh]

If the mentality and leadership of General Welsh actually trickled down, the Air Force would be an incredibly improved place. I'm still hopeful it will. If a man of that caliber can't do it, I'm not sure who can. I wish I had the ability to speak that eloquently.

[Karl Hungus]

If the mentality and leadership of General Welsh actually trickled down, the Air Force would be an incredibly improved place. I'm still hopeful it will. If a man of that caliber can't do it, I'm not sure who can. I wish I had the ability to speak that eloquently.

It's telling that 10 months after we were "promised" a "vector", we haven't seen one. Cue the "he's had his hands full! The budget! Sexual assault! Syria! He gave a great speech at the academy this one time! He got rid of Blues on Monday... sorta! Give him time!" responses.

Great speeches only go so far.

[Hacker]

So, what if that 2-striper Gen Welsh mentioned in that speech just decided on his own to stop filling out the 1800s? How would that have played out.

It is one thing for a 4-Star to make such a decision, but another thing entirely for an A1C.

It is funny that he mentions an information gap, because clearly his vector on this is 180-out from the compliance-at-all-costs policy that's been the law of the land for many years.

He talks an EXCELLENT game, especially with regard to fighting the "mother-may-I" decisionmaking technique that most field-level USAF leadership seems to take. My fear is that his push to allow subordinate leaders to actually make their own decisions will go away once he leaves as quickly as the "don't worry about getting your Masters" policy disappeared seconds after Jumper was no longer the CSAF.

[uhhello]

So, what if that 2-striper Gen Welsh mentioned in that speech just decided on his own to stop filling out the 1800s? How would that have played out.

It is one thing for a 4-Star to make such a decision, but another thing entirely for an A1C.

It is funny that he mentions an information gap, because clearly his vector on this is 180-out from the compliance-at-all-costs policy that's been the law of the land for many years.

He talks an EXCELLENT game, especially with regard to fighting the "mother-may-I" decisionmaking technique that most field-level USAF leadership seems to take. My fear is that his push to allow subordinate leaders to actually make their own decisions will go away once he leaves as quickly as the "don't worry about getting your Masters" policy disappeared seconds after Jumper was no longer the CSAF.

Nailed it. He has preached the "just stop doing it" over and over and it sounds great but not anywhere close to reality.

[RTB]

I don't understand this attitude. WTF?

This is not a personal attack on anyone, just an opinion, but how many of us have tried to make institutional change at the squadron, group, wing, and beyond level? I say this honestly without prejudice. Let me rephrase that statement; how many people in any airframe, AFSC, unit, etc has ever tried to change something and found that the change was overwhelmingly accepted and carried out over night with no push back? Probably no one. I'd argue that ALL OF US have dealt with this problem in one form or another, and ALL OF US have met some form of resistance, often to the point of where we want to quit and say why bother. But some of us on here have seen good ideas get implemented, and people get behind them and in those cases it has made all the difference in a squadron, wing, etc. Leadership takes risk at all levels. So what's with the "what have you done for me lately" attitude with the CSAF? We crush this with SNAPs, we bitch about it with Lts, but then but people take that attitude towards the current CSAF and I just don't get it. What more do you want from the guy?

We have a guy at the top who "gets it" and our responses is "well he hasn't fixed M-words, or hasn't sent out a vector yet" We have a guy who is our #1 advocate and yet we're still not convinced? I don't understand that. The previous guy wouldn't stand up for shit, and was so absurdly out of touch it was embarrassing, and now we have a guy who is saying "go get it done, I'll support you" and you're still pissed?

What will change your mind?

Well said, been thinking the same thing. I can tell you at our Wing our leadership is echoing CSAF's guidance and is actually implementing changes. This is good news in my book and outstanding leadership from the top.

[FlyinGrunt]

Here's what I think is lacking, and I accept the possible spears.

We all agree with what he's saying. We all agree that the problem is somewhere between the CSAF and us. The "leadership" in the middle, somewhere along the line, is just silently ignoring what he says and going on their merry way with compliance-at-all-costs culture. What is the CSAF doing to force THOSE leaders from squashing the initiative he seeks to foster?

I think it's time for a reign of terror, in a perversely awesome sense. I know he's busy. But random visits, unannounced, everywhere, all the time is the answer. Down in the trenches, talking to maintainers at DM at 0300, or pilots getting back from TDY at HRT, or that FS at Mountain Home whose CC has apparently lost its mind . . . or hell, ANYONE at Cannon. Solicit honest feedback, with no entourage in tow, and no warning to the chain of command.

Then follow up. When a stupid policy letter like banning #69 is issued, or Jim Slife opens his mouth about Art 15s for rolling your flightsuit sleeves, or an AMC senior leader pulls one of their famous political crucifixions of an aircraft commander . . . call THEM on the carpet at 0700 in service dress. Put the fear of God into the O-5s and O-6s. Start specifying that some regs CANNOT be made further restrictive, and that to do so is to risk being fired by the CSAF himself.

I'm hopeful. But what I think is necessary is to make the careerists in the middle be scared to death for their careers if they do not push decision-making back to the appropriate level and stop thinking all rules are created equal and unbreakable.

Curtis LeMay meets the Common Sense fairy.

[Warrior]

Curtis LeMay meets the Common Sense fairy.

The AF still hasn't figured out that endless layers of middle management is inefficient and hugely unhelpful to implementing any kind of organizational change.

Serious question: what does the NAF do? I've been to SOS and I honestly can't answer that one...

[RTB]

what does the NAF do?

Provide unnecessary delays for everything and additional layers of bureaucracy.

[Champ Kind]

Provide unnecessary delays for everything and additional layers of bureaucracy.

Shack.

One of the best emails I saw this year was a solicitation (ahem, tasker) from 18 AF seeking inputs regarding its role and heritage in order to commemorate the anniversary of its reactivation.

WTF? You have to ask??

[Steve Holt!]

Shack.

One of the best emails I saw this year was a solicitation (ahem, tasker) from 18 AF seeking inputs regarding its role and heritage in order to commemorate the anniversary of its reactivation.

WTF? You have to ask??

Get the LPA in there

[FallingOsh]

Here's what I think is lacking, and I accept the possible spears.

We all agree with what he's saying. We all agree that the problem is somewhere between the CSAF and us. The "leadership" in the middle, somewhere along the line, is just silently ignoring what he says and going on their merry way with compliance-at-all-costs culture. What is the CSAF doing to force THOSE leaders from squashing the initiative he seeks to foster?

I think it's time for a reign of terror, in a perversely awesome sense. I know he's busy. But random visits, unannounced, everywhere, all the time is the answer. Down in the trenches, talking to maintainers at DM at 0300, or pilots getting back from TDY at HRT, or that FS at Mountain Home whose CC has apparently lost its mind . . . or hell, ANYONE at Cannon. Solicit honest feedback, with no entourage in tow, and no warning to the chain of command.

Then follow up. When a stupid policy letter like banning #69 is issued, or Jim Slife opens his mouth about Art 15s for rolling your flightsuit sleeves, or an AMC senior leader pulls one of their famous political crucifixions of an aircraft commander . . . call THEM on the carpet at 0700 in service dress. Put the fear of God into the O-5s and O-6s. Start specifying that some regs CANNOT be made further restrictive, and that to do so is to risk being fired by the CSAF himself.

I'm hopeful. But what I think is necessary is to make the careerists in the middle be scared to death for their careers if they do not push decision-making back to the appropriate level and stop thinking all rules are created equal and unbreakable.

Curtis LeMay meets the Common Sense fairy.

All of what you said... plus the next few CSAFs must have the same mentality of General Welsh if we really hope to see lasting improvement. It will take a generation's worth of time to change the fucked up culture we're all so frustrated with. One guy serving one tour as CSAF won't do it. Can he serve indefinitely?

[TheInner]

I think it's time for a reign of terror, in a perversely awesome sense. I know he's busy. But random visits, unannounced, everywhere, all the time is the answer. Down in the trenches, talking to maintainers at DM at 0300, or pilots getting back from TDY at HRT, or that FS at Mountain Home whose CC has apparently lost its mind . . . or hell, ANYONE at Cannon. Solicit honest feedback, with no entourage in tow, and no warning to the chain of command.

This would be awesome! I absolutely believe that the O-5/6/7 crowd is where this can be fixed. They have grown up in the AF with the same ideals the young bucks have now and still remember what it is like to be in the trenches, but they just need some legit support from above to fall in line with CSAF's ideals without the fear of being fired or not getting promoted.

[Welcome Thrillho]

I think it's time for a reign of terror, in a perversely awesome sense. I know he's busy. But random visits, unannounced, everywhere, all the time is the answer. Down in the trenches, talking to maintainers at DM at 0300, or pilots getting back from TDY at HRT, or that FS at Mountain Home whose CC has apparently lost its mind . . . or hell, ANYONE at Cannon. Solicit honest feedback, with no entourage in tow, and no warning to the chain of command.

There's actually some precedence with the current CSAF. Back when he was in charge of USAFE, he dropped in and met with the CGOs in my sq, kicking out anyone who wasn't. It was a good discussion with all topics addressed from flying hours, to AADs/PME, to promotions...etc. He gave us all the answers we wanted to hear from our leadership (pretty much everything that would bring a tear to every BODN members eyes). Howver the caveat: "I hear ya, and if I were king for a day it would be so... but alas, there's only so much a 3-star can do despite being a MAJCOM/CC." We all left the meeting satisified (sts), and hopeful about this guy making it to place where he could make the difference.

Cautiously optimistic that he makes good with some of his words to us that day...

[Liquid]

I'm hopeful. But what I think is necessary is to make the careerists in the middle be scared to death for their careers if they do not push decision-making back to the appropriate level and stop thinking all rules are created equal and unbreakable.

Great point. Discipline is not doing everything exactly as prescribed regardless of effectiveness. Discipline is having the training and self control to do what is required, within the environmental constraints. During our misguided quest to instill discipline, we have neutered critical thinking, innovation and aggressive leadership. CJCS is really pushing the concept of Mission Command to force mission type orders, with commander intent and decentralized execution. Hard to believe the AF doesn't have this at the core of our beliefs. You should read his White Paper and senior leaders should hold commanders accountable for the command climate they create.

[BitteEinBit]

Here's what I think is lacking, and I accept the possible spears.

I think it's time for a reign of terror, in a perversely awesome sense. I know he's busy. But random visits, unannounced, everywhere, all the time is the answer. Down in the trenches, talking to maintainers at DM at 0300, or pilots getting back from TDY at HRT, or that FS at Mountain Home whose CC has apparently lost its mind . . . or hell, ANYONE at Cannon. Solicit honest feedback, with no entourage in tow, and no warning to the chain of command.

THIS! I'm all for the random visits. The problem with planned CSAF visits is that all the CCs pick their "best and brightest" whom they know won't say negative shit, to meet with the CSAF. He needs to be talking to the dudes on the fence, the lower performers (not necessarily dirtbags), or the average Joe, at work, dirty, greasy and tired with no CC or E-9 in tow with the intimidating eye fuck in the background to make Joe say the "right" things. Yes, that would be awesome.

[RTB]

During our misguided quest to instill discipline, we have neutered critical thinking, innovation and aggressive leadership. CJCS is really pushing the concept of Mission Command to force mission type orders, with commander intent and decentralized execution.

Awesome, I really hope we get to this as the norm in the AF, not the exception.

senior leaders should hold commanders accountable for the command climate they create.

THIS!!! I will start feeling optimistic about the AF again once I see this happening.

[Rusty Pipes]

THIS! I'm all for the random visits. The problem with planned CSAF visits is that all the CCs pick their "best and brightest" whom they know won't say negative shit, to meet with the CSAF. He needs to be talking to the dudes on the fence, the lower performers (not necessarily dirtbags), or the average Joe, at work, dirty, greasy and tired with no CC or E-9 in tow with the intimidating eye fuck in the background to make Joe say the "right" things. Yes, that would be awesome.

Completely agree! CSAF was supposed to make a visit to our organization and do a Q&A with all of the AF types this summer. The POS shoe O-6 that is the Sr AF guy sent out an e-mail 2 weeks in advance making it mandatory that all AF members send him at least one question to ask CSAF so he could "properly vette the questions for appropriateness" and then notify who would be selected to ask a question. As stated earlier it is the O-5 to O-7 level that is mostly hampering progress that the Boss is trying to make... almost like the crappy GS-7 secretary that refuses to do things the Commander wants them to do because they have been around long enough to know that all they have to do is wait the Commander out and he/she will be gone soon enough.

Those one on one sessions with any boss can be extremely productive when there isn't the shit screen middle management PC police there. I've had more than a few occasions where I told my supervisor something didn't work repeatedly and was told to shut up and color because they didn't want their boss to think they were complaining or because "that's the way we've always done it", but then got the O-6 or O-7 alone and when asked about the subject I said "Sir, this is stupid... why do we do it this way?"... and the Boss completely agreed and the policy was immediately changed. As much as we all bitch about the terrible managers out there we do actually have some good leaders who sometimes never get to hear the "this is stupid" from the field. They can't change it if they don't know about it.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[magnetfreezer]

Great point. Discipline is not doing everything exactly as prescribed regardless of effectiveness. Discipline is having the training and self control to do what is required, within the environmental constraints. During our misguided quest to instill discipline, we have neutered critical thinking, innovation and aggressive leadership. CJCS is really pushing the concept of Mission Command to force mission type orders, with commander intent and decentralized execution. Hard to believe the AF doesn't have this at the core of our beliefs. You should read his White Paper and senior leaders should hold commanders accountable for the command climate they create.

Exactly what needs to be done - is the intent to be more of an improvement to plans/future conflicts or will that get pushed to AFCENT/OEF as well?

[snoopyeast]

Get the LPA in there

Nah, they are too busy working on their Masters.

[Warrior]

Completely agree! CSAF was supposed to make a visit to our organization and do a Q&A with all of the AF types this summer. The POS shoe O-6 that is the Sr AF guy sent out an e-mail 2 weeks in advance making it mandatory that all AF members send him at least one question to ask CSAF so he could "properly vette the questions for appropriateness" and then notify who would be selected to ask a question. As stated earlier it is the O-5 to O-7 level that is mostly hampering progress that the Boss is trying to make... almost like the crappy GS-7 secretary that refuses to do things the Commander wants them to do because they have been around long enough to know that all they have to do is wait the Commander out and he/she will be gone soon enough.

Those one on one sessions with any boss can be extremely productive when there isn't the shit screen middle management PC police there. I've had more than a few occasions where I told my supervisor something didn't work repeatedly and was told to shut up and color because they didn't want their boss to think they were complaining or because "that's the way we've always done it", but then got the O-6 or O-7 alone and when asked about the subject I said "Sir, this is stupid... why do we do it this way?"... and the Boss completely agreed and the policy was immediately changed. As much as we all bitch about the terrible managers out there we do actually have some good leaders who sometimes never get to hear the "this is stupid" from the field. They can't change it if they don't know about it.

I've been fortunate with my Sq/cc's. Some if them have been very receptive to my questions-it's easy to come across as sport bitching when it's with the bros, but phrased appropriately, I've been very satisfied (sts) with the answers I've gotten over a beer.

Ex: why the F do I have to do SOS online so I can compete to go in res? This was a lengthy discussion, but the answer that got me to shut up was that its to compete to be a DG and like it or not, the AF values SOS DG.

For the record, I was not a DG. And this example probably sounds lame on al gores internets, but the discussion that led to that was exactly what I needed to hear from my CC as a 1LT/young captain.

[lj35driver]

Ex: why the F do I have to do SOS online so I can compete to go in res? This was a lengthy discussion, but the answer that got me to shut up was that its to compete to be a DG and like it or not, the AF values SOS DG.

.

YGTBFSM...I hope that bit of logic is gone from your memory if and when you become a Sqd CC. That's how the current climate and beliefs keep getting perpetuated and we end up with the state of leadership we're experiencing. Find some folks you know who've recently attended IDE in residence and ask how the other services view our stance on PME, bullsh1t online degrees that do nearly nothing to develop you as a leader, masters to get Maj, etc. The people they send to our PME are there to get a masters. By and large, none of them had a masters when they showed up, some were even O-5 selects, and even stated that having a masters obtained through TUI, US Military University, etc was more likely to mean non-promotion or non-selection to an IDE level school. Not saying that they do things better, but they sure as hell do some things that make more sense.

[nsplayr]

Ex: why the F do I have to do SOS online so I can compete to go in res? This was a lengthy discussion, but the answer that got me to shut up was that its to compete to be a DG and like it or not, the AF values SOS DG.

That doesn't make any god damn sense.

Yes, the AF values SOS in-res DG, fine. PME done right has value for a professional force. But they should not and I'd argue do not value "practice bleeding" although it's basically being enforced in every Wing.

There is absolutely no connection between doing SOS in correspondence and having the opportunity to get DG out of the in-res program, none. A Wing could send a guy to SOS in-res without having to complete the correspondence program TOMORROW if they wanted.

If this was the "satisfactory" answer you got from your SQ/CC then whew, I'm sorry.

Edited October 6, 2013 by nsplayr

[Warrior]

That doesn't make any god damn sense.

Yes, the AF values SOS in-res DG, fine. PME done right has value for a professional force. But they should not and I'd argue do not value "practice bleeding" although it's basically being enforced in every Wing.

There is absolutely no connection between doing SOS in correspondence and having the opportunity to get DG out of the in-res program, none. A Wing could send a guy to SOS in-res without having to complete the correspondence program TOMORROW if they wanted.

If this was the "satisfactory" answer you got from your SQ/CC then whew, I'm sorry.

Whoa. This was me actually getting my sq/cc to say that practice bleeding was dumb. It wasn't his point that doing it (sts) online would help me be a DG. His point was that doing it online was a prerequisite (from the WG) to go in res. so I asked why I should go in res if the b ox was checked already and his answer was that the point of going in res was to try and be a DG.

Worded differently (and more to the point of the discussion I had with my sq/cc) if I've "checked the box by doing it online" why do I need to spend more time TDY away from my family to go in res?". His response to that question was that there's no pooint to SOS in res if you're not going to be a DG.

This discussion wasn't about whether the WG "could" send me without correspondence. It was about why do both. The connection between correspondence and in residence DG is only that the WG required online complete before consideration to go in res.

We would all prefer that the answer be one or the other. But in reality it's not.

[Champ Kind]

His response to that question was that there's no pooint to SOS in res if you're not going to be a DG.

Man, the AF really makes me want to kick a puppy sometimes.

[brabus]

his answer was that the point of going in res was to try and be a DG.

What a retarded answer. First, there is zero point, but if you're going to go, you should not go to get DG, go to have an 8 week vacation and work less than you did at Restaurant X in high school. That whole program is such a colossal waste of taxpayer money and your time; but hell, I'll admit it was kind of nice to work the least I ever have in my life and have tons of free time to do a multitude of things. People who got wrapped up in DG were compete douches and had lost touch with reality as much as the leadership above them who tell them they should go to get DG.