Jughead Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I'm still having a difficult time wrapping my head around why our people are wearing PT gear off duty anyway? Yeah, I know - to present a more uniform appearance, etc... Great, to what point? MK, that one's actually pretty easy to answer--and it has NOTHING to do with "more uniform appearance" or any other of the offially-cited reasons. Too many (predominantly) young, (predominantly) female (predominantly) airmen had begun turning deployed locations into an arena to try out their latest "fashion" experiments (READ: can you see my cooter now?). It's basically impossible to define what is or is not "in good taste," but it's pretty easy to say, "wear a uniform." The rest is history. Yes, it's definitely in the category of a few piss in their beds so everyone wears diapers. But if you look back just a couple of years, you'll see it was CENTAF pushing for the implementation of the official AF PT gear, in order to be able to fully push their PT wear policy. I'm fairly convinced that this AOR issue (real or perceived, makes no difference) led directly to there even being AF PT gear (not solely, but as a major contributing factor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Glad to be in the Guard, where we PT in civvie gear still. for all you tucking your shirts and wearing daisy duke's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 My only point is that there are somethings worth worrying about and/or fighting for. It takes less time out of my busy day to tuck in my pt shirt, wear a glow belt, and click through the self aid buddy care slides as fast as I can than to sit around and complain about how stupid these policies are. Also, imagine a wing staff meeting where the wing commander goes around the room and when he gets to the Chief he has nothing to say. Now my commander can get back to the squadron faster and be a squadron commander. Or we can fight the system, have the Chief bitch about the discipline problems in the wing and how the officers aren't setting a good example..yada yada yada...Its back to that whole philosphy of not highlighting your self. If you are working out so hard that your PT shirt comes untucked...then so be it. No one is going to say anything to you beacause you are a sweaty mess. Clearly there are other situtations where it is reasonable to un-tuck your shirt. Use a little common sense and dont use the lack of common sense to prove your point. I think you are cleared hot to untuck your shirt when you are using the restroom, taking it off to change or if you were on fire just to name a few. The AFI can not cover every possible situation so use some common sense and think about the intent of the rule and not the black and white lettering. Someone walking from thier car to the Shopette with the shirt untucked is completly different from someone using thier shirt to wipe the sweat off thier forecranium while working out. In my runins with SNCO's, if I've had a reasonable explanation for my violation of AF policies, 99% saluted smartly and continued on with thier day. blindly accepting queep as "too pointless to fight over" does nothing but embolden people looking for their next OPR/EPR bullet to come up with some other bullshit queep to invent and enforce on the apathetic masses. There's a reason that morale is so low at deployed locations, and it's not because you're out there doing the job you're trained to do. Nothing makes me feel like part of the fight like coming home from a 13 hour mission finding people who need killing to be hassled because the shirt on the PT gear I put on after I peeled off my sweat soaked flight suit isn't tucked in "enough" (think I'm kidding? You haven't been to the deid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudhen69 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think all of the preceeding counterpoints are valid. I am also not an advocate of "blindly following queep". I just feel that at some point the law of diminishing returns applies. To me I dont wear a glow belt beacuse I think it makes me any safer or I think its a good rule. I wear a glow belt so I can walk around with out anyone bothering me. Sure I would love to stage a sit in at the DFAC protesting the glowbelt...but I have better things to do...like fight a war. Replace glowbelt with just about any stupid queepy policy. I am not advocating them or saying thier right. I really just don't want to be bothered. If some civic minded SNCO decides he is going to point out an egregious infraction of the an AFI or local policy, I identify my self as an officer and point them to AFI 34-1201 Chapter 8.2 and excuse my self from the conversation ( I carry a copy of that paragraph with me just in case...im not kidding). I have only had to do it once and I never heard a word from that SNCO again. I guess I am lucky to have had great squadron and group commander while deployed who have your back. On the same token the two times Ive been deployed, the group Chief and Shirt have been equally as great. Most of the run ins I have had have been from fellow CGO's trying way too hard to pracitce all they have learned during SOS in correspondence. Im a Captian and I have had at least a half dozen Capts and Lt's ask me if I was forgetting something when I walked past not saluting. Yes, in the end, there are some idotic policies out there. I just have better things to do, like fight a war, than to fight the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrooster99 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think all of the preceeding counterpoints are valid. I am also not an advocate of "blindly following queep". I just feel that at some point the law of diminishing returns applies. To me I dont wear a glow belt beacuse I think it makes me any safer or I think its a good rule. I wear a glow belt so I can walk around with out anyone bothering me. Sure I would love to stage a sit in at the DFAC protesting the glowbelt...but I have better things to do...like fight a war. Replace glowbelt with just about any stupid queepy policy. I am not advocating them or saying thier right. I really just don't want to be bothered. If some civic minded SNCO decides he is going to point out an egregious infraction of the an AFI or local policy, I identify my self as an officer and point them to AFI 34-1201 Chapter 8.2 and excuse my self from the conversation ( I carry a copy of that paragraph with me just in case...im not kidding). I have only had to do it once and I never heard a word from that SNCO again. I guess I am lucky to have had great squadron and group commander while deployed who have your back. On the same token the two times Ive been deployed, the group Chief and Shirt have been equally as great. Most of the run ins I have had have been from fellow CGO's trying way too hard to pracitce all they have learned during SOS in correspondence. Im a Captian and I have had at least a half dozen Capts and Lt's ask me if I was forgetting something when I walked past not saluting. Yes, in the end, there are some idotic policies out there. I just have better things to do, like fight a war, than to fight the power. I hear you, but that is exactly the sort of apathy that allows this sort of queep and bureaucracy to get worse, and it will get worse. If it's bullshit, it needs to be identified and treated as such. No it's not easy, but it's ultimately worthwhile. MK, that one's actually pretty easy to answer--and it has NOTHING to do with "more uniform appearance" or any other of the offially-cited reasons. Too many (predominantly) young, (predominantly) female (predominantly) airmen had begun turning deployed locations into an arena to try out their latest "fashion" experiments (READ: can you see my cooter now?). It's basically impossible to define what is or is not "in good taste," but it's pretty easy to say, "wear a uniform." The rest is history. That is one reason I've heard discussed but I don't think it's the true underlying reason or an appopriate response to the siutation. The real underlying reason is that AF leadership either 1. Got pressure to conform with other services who were already wearing PT gear downrange or 2. Saw the other services wearing their PT geard downrange and wanted to conform. Either way, what we have now that is driving a lot of these changes is the former. AF leadership is getting pressure from Army types...like the current CENTCOM CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 If some civic minded SNCO decides he is going to point out an egregious infraction of the an AFI or local policy, I identify my self as an officer and point them to AFI 34-1201 Chapter 8.2 and excuse my self from the conversation ( I carry a copy of that paragraph with me just in case...im not kidding). I have only had to do it once and I never heard a word from that SNCO again. Please share, I'm not familiar with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExBoneOSO Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Please share, I'm not familiar with that. Wow, what a concept, showing respect to someone with a higher rank. Think some of these SNCOs need a lesson?? I especially like the first one.. AFI 34-1201, Protocol 8.2. Other Marks of Respect. 8.2.1. Juniors shall show deference to seniors at all times by recognizing their presence and by employing a courteous and respectful bearing and mode of speech toward them. 8.2.2. Juniors shall stand at attention (unless seated at mess or unless circumstances make such action impracticable or inappropriate) as follows: 8.2.2.1. When addressed by an officer senior to them. 8.2.2.2. When an officer of flag or general rank, the commanding officer, or an officer senior to the commanding officer, or an officer making an official inspection enters the room or space. 8.2.3. Juniors shall walk or ride to the left of seniors whom they are accompanying. 8.2.4. Officers shall enter aircraft and other modes of transportation in inverse order of rank and shall depart them in order of rank, unless there is special reason to the contrary. The seniors shall be accorded the more desirable seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herk Driver Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Wow, what a concept, showing respect to someone with a higher rank. Think some of these SNCOs need a lesson?? I especially like the first one.. AFI 34-1201, Protocol 8.2. Other Marks of Respect. 8.2.1. Juniors shall show deference to seniors at all times by recognizing their presence and by employing a courteous and respectful bearing and mode of speech toward them. 8.2.2. Juniors shall stand at attention (unless seated at mess or unless circumstances make such action impracticable or inappropriate) as follows: 8.2.2.1. When addressed by an officer senior to them. 8.2.2.2. When an officer of flag or general rank, the commanding officer, or an officer senior to the commanding officer, or an officer making an official inspection enters the room or space. 8.2.3. Juniors shall walk or ride to the left of seniors whom they are accompanying. 8.2.4. Officers shall enter aircraft and other modes of transportation in inverse order of rank and shall depart them in order of rank, unless there is special reason to the contrary. The seniors shall be accorded the more desirable seats. Cool, but it should not take carrying around an AFI in ones pocket to get the same result. Just shut them off in a normal tone of voice and demand they show the proper customs and courtesies. If wrong, make sure to say thank you for pointing that out. If there was any inppropriate behavior such as calling you down with hey you or not using Sir, then remind them that just because they corrected said uniform issue does not excuse them from exercising proper military decorum when speaking to an officer. 'Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExBoneOSO Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Cool, but it should not take carrying around an AFI in ones pocket to get the same result. Just shut them off in a normal tone of voice and demand they show the proper customs and courtesies. If wrong, make sure to say thank you for pointing that out. If there was any inppropriate behavior such as calling you down with hey you or not using Sir, then remind them that just because they corrected said uniform issue does not excuse them from exercising proper military decorum when speaking to an officer. 'Nuff said. Absolutely "2" - you'd think that people wouldn't need a reminder of common courtesies, but apparently in this day and age you need to. And it is a shame that you'd have to carry a copy of the AFI to prove that they were correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedy782 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I bet many Deid individuals haven't read this reg, so it couldn't hurt to carry it around if you feel up to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08Dawg Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Pressed to test at the Barksdale gym this morning. Nobody said anything to me about not having it tucked in, but there were plenty who were wearing a nice, neat tucked in PT shirt while lifting or running or whatnot. There were a few who were quite blatantly untucked, and nobody seemed to be giving them any grief either. Maybe it's still new and the SNCO mafia hasn't had time to let it soak in yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outbreak Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Pressed to test at the Barksdale gym this morning. Nobody said anything to me about not having it tucked in, but there were plenty who were wearing a nice, neat tucked in PT shirt while lifting or running or whatnot. There were a few who were quite blatantly untucked, and nobody seemed to be giving them any grief either. Maybe it's still new and the SNCO mafia hasn't had time to let it soak in yet. I'm pretty sure this is just an AFCENT thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scooby Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I'm pretty sure this is just an AFCENT thing. Nope...AF wide. We got the memo here at Eglin too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outbreak Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Didn't know that. I'm not on NIPR, plus I'm pretty sure I deleted the email, but I could've sworn the email we got said it came down from AFCENT. Oh, well. I never wear PT gear at home anyway. I wear civvies to the gym. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Didn't know that. I'm not on NIPR, plus I'm pretty sure I deleted the email, but I could've sworn the email we got said it came down from AFCENT. Oh, well. I never wear PT gear at home anyway. I wear civvies to the gym. 2. Where this will become an issue is during your twice-a-year PT tests, since they are now done by the HAWC and will require you to be in official PT uniform. Hopefully the civilians administering the test have more sense than the NCOs at the Deid when it comes to enforcing the "tuck" rule...I'd hate to be stopped in the middle of my run because my shirt is coming untucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HU&W Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 2. Where this will become an issue is during your twice-a-year PT tests, since they are now done by the HAWC and will require you to be in official PT uniform. Hopefully the civilians administering the test have more sense than the NCOs at the Deid when it comes to enforcing the "tuck" rule...I'd hate to be stopped in the middle of my run because my shirt is coming untucked. Just to be sure, I'd recommend wearing some shirt garters to keep your shirt tucked during the test. Don't forget to have someone take pictures/youtube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsplayr Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I know at least 1 squadron commander who is pushing back against this BS tucking policy. Said no one working under him would enforce the policy when we're meeting amongst ourselves and then proceeded to participate in an entire PT session, shirt hanging out in the breeze. boss *Caveat that he said the rules were the rules and there was no top-cover if someone outside the squadron get in our chili... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who? Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I know at least 1 squadron commander who is pushing back against this BS tucking policy. Said no one working under him would enforce the policy when we're meeting amongst ourselves and then proceeded to participate in an entire PT session, shirt hanging out in the breeze. boss Ha...and I know one who was already instituting his own tucked-shirt PT gear policy at mandatory, twice-a-week squadron PT sessions in 2005... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scooby Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I know at least 1 squadron commander who is pushing back against this BS tucking policy. Said no one working under him would enforce the policy when we're meeting amongst ourselves and then proceeded to participate in an entire PT session, shirt hanging out in the breeze. boss *Caveat that he said the rules were the rules and there was no top-cover if someone outside the squadron get in our chili... I know at least 1 AF SQ that will be fully enforcing this policy with PT Nazis in full effect. O yea - that's my SQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techsan Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I see way too many people working out on their own sporting the the PTs...not sure why. Unless its a squadron group PT or a PT test, I'm not wearing them. Obviously only applys in garrison. Shirt garters + PTs would be a sweet look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearMonkey Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Shirt garters + PTs would be a sweet look. I dig it. The garters are going in my Deid bag as soon as I get home. Between those and my hot-pink LED equipped reflective belt I'm all set to satisfy yet ridicule the rules. I should be easy to find; I'll be the one surrounded by the pack of DDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I dig it. The garters are going in my Deid bag as soon as I get home. Between those and my hot-pink LED equipped reflective belt I'm all set to satisfy yet ridicule the rules. I should be easy to find; I'll be the one surrounded by the pack of DDs. Awesome, keep the DDs occupied by taking one for the team so everyone else can be free. Just like the guy in the old war movies who jumps on the gernade to save his buddies! Love the idea of really, really following the rules just to pi$$ em off. Rock on brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 Riddle me this... If the PT gear is now considered a "uniform" do I have to be clean shaven when I wear it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scooby Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 (edited) Riddle me this... If the PT gear is now considered a "uniform" do I have to be clean shaven when I wear it? Yes. In fact, that is specifically mentioned. So is jewelry / body modification. No one has said anything to me (yet) about my tattoos showing in PTs but I'm waiting for it.... I've already been told 5 times to tuck my shirt in. FML. Edited December 6, 2009 by Scooby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 Awesome. The hits just keep coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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