Not going to UPT...will I get kicked out?

[guineapigfury]

Isn't this one more reason to not go to USAFA? I know so many people who went there and all but one of them either regret it or find it was only worth putting up with for the pilot slot.

[Muscle2002]

Isn't this one more reason to not go to USAFA? I know so many people who went there and all but one of them either regret it or find it was only worth putting up with for the pilot slot.

I enjoyed my time there for the most part...it helped though that my family was in Denver

[RASH]

I enjoyed my time there for the most part...it helped though that my family was in Denver

I grew up about 10 miles north of there, so it wasn't that bad either. That was 25 years ago, though...

[joe1234]

I've got to think that the government demanding recoupment is a pretty good case for a lawsuit for the guys owing money. If a guy fails UPT due to reasons outside their control, and the Air Force kicks them out, that guy literally does nothing wrong. Does the contract even stipulate a demand for recoupment after an involuntary separation? If it doesn't, how could they possibly owe money if they never violated any contract? I'm not a lawyer, but that seems like a pretty clear case of wrongdoing on the part of the Air Force.

Edited April 23, 2013 by joe1234

[Left_turn]

I know two people who got washed out of pilot training. One was a washout because he couldn't land the plane well, the other self eliminated because he was getting sick every flight and didn't want to waste any more time in it. Both got kicked out after trying to reclass, the SIE handed a bill for 140k and some change. He got his congressman involved, though, and I don't think he has had to pay anything back. This all happened in 2010, and they warned us starting with my class that it was likely to happen to anyone who quit.

Seems like an expensive way to reduce officer numbers: pay for 4 years of school and training, then IFS then walk. Got to be a better way to screen potential candidates from the academy. Isn't this why they stood up the powered flight program and bought a bunch of new planes, to help reduce washouts?

[Helo Kitty]

I knew of two dudes back in 2010 who were booted from AD for failing academics at IFS. They were also forced to repay their undergraduate costs (can't remember if they were AFAs or ROTC).

Don't know how someone could fail academics at IFS though...

[Rusty Pipes]

This would be an easy one to bring to your congressman. You get commissioned as an Officer, not a pilot. There is nowhere in ROTC, OTS or USAFA where you are specifically trained as a pilot (other than maybe the powered flight program, but that is more of an orientation thing and you don't get any rating with it)... you are being trained to be an Officer. So if you are an O-1 who is selected for SEALS, Rangers, PJs, etc and you get washed out are they going to boot you and hand you a bill? I hate to use the trite expression about UPT/becoming a military pilot, but if it was easy then everyone would do it. They purposely build in attrition rates to every school, that just makes sense. We had a few guys wash out of my UPT class who wanted nothing more than to be wearing a set of wings, they just weren't cut out for it. Guess what... they passed all of the tests and screenings to get into the program... they had every intention of becoming pilots and the Air Force (through their various screening processes) thought they could make it through, but no AFOQT or BAT test can simulate pulling Gs or flying formation in July in a Tweet (I'm dating myself). If UPT ever had a 100% graduation rate (for other than PC reasons) then it would be proving that it isn't hard enough.

[sputnik]

Eh, done a little digging but still no definitive answer. From what I've found out, if you SIE you are opening yourself up for huge trouble. Apparently the way it's looked at, you are failing to complete a contract of your own free will (i.e. you quit), it was something completely within your control. I've heard rumblings that if washed out for academics, it can be regarded similarly, not sure about that one yet.

Isn't this why they stood up the powered flight program and bought a bunch of new planes, to help reduce washouts?

No.

You can make a good argument that it should be used that way, but it isn't. PFP is an entirely optional program. If you're smart, you can look at it as a risk-free preview of PFP, similar plane similar program, no consequences.

[Swanee]

Is the Air Force really that broke that they have to pimp a bunch of kids whose dreams may have just been smashed for money?

I've got a bunch of Marine and Navy buddies who didn't make it to their wings for one reason or another. Each of them, whether it was a DOR (I think you guys call it an SIE?) or an attrite, were offered the opportunity to redesignate into another MOS (Active or Reserve), or to simply get out out of AD Marine Corps and go hang out in the IRR. On the big Navy side of the house they were sending guys home left and right. Most of those guys (Academy and ROTC included) didn't have much chance to redesignate, so they were sent to the civilian life. However the Navy never handed anyone a bill for their college education unless they did something horribly stupid and were being kicked out (look up Adam Ballard).

[Oo7kerpow]

How can the Air Force justify doing this for money? What happened to all those critically manned afscs(non aircrew) that would be perfect places to send these individuals?

[guineapigfury]

Eh, done a little digging but still no definitive answer. From what I've found out, if you SIE you are opening yourself up for huge trouble. Apparently the way it's looked at, you are failing to complete a contract of your own free will (i.e. you quit), it was something completely within your control. I've heard rumblings that if washed out for academics, it can be regarded similarly, not sure about that one yet.

Is this even possible? How can you graduate with a bachelor's degree and not pass UPT academics? It's all 8th grade level stuff; everyone called it Slackademics for a reason ...

[M2]

Intentional?

[HU&W]

Light reading on this topic.

[Fuzz]

I can attest to the ineffectiveness of that system, had a debt from ROTC, after even telling my finance dept. and DFAS about it multiple times it took them over a year to send me my first letter, and then sent it to collections when they claimed they "couldn't find me".

[Snuggie]

Is this even possible? How can you graduate with a bachelor's degree and not pass UPT academics? It's all 8th grade level stuff; everyone called it Slackademics for a reason ...

There was a guy in my UPT class who did just that. Since he was a guard guy they washed him back to the next class where he subsequently failed another test. They didn't let him back after that.

[Oo7kerpow]

It's all 8th grade level stuff; everyone called it Slackademics for a reason ...

Except for the dreaded weather test

[disgruntledemployee]

There was a guy douche at UPT that intentionally failed 3 of the life support tests. He didn't want to be a pilot and someone (ROTC Det) told him it was better to wash out than to decline a pilot slot. Once his classmates found out his gameplan, he went from UPT bud to douche in 0.69 secs. I don't remember what happened to him and nobody cared about him after his stunt. What a waste of money, effort, and a perfectly good pilot slot.

Out

[10percenttruth]

Far be it from me to perpetuate a stereotype :: sarcasm ::, but most of the studs I saw wash out for academics were ex-football players, international students & guard dudes.

The standing policy from the wing king at CBM (which I imagine had backing from 19AF) was: "If you can't hack UPT academics, either through un/underdeveloped study skills or a lack of motivation, you have no business being a technical leader at any level in the Air Force."

Basically, AC washouts were automatically non-recommended for retention. If you just didn't have the hands, that's another story entirely, and I rarely saw those types be non-retained

[guineapigfury]

Far be it from me to perpetuate a stereotype :: sarcasm ::, but most of the studs I saw wash out for academics were ex-football players, international students & guard dudes.

International dudes can wash out? We started with one in UPT and it was like this guy knew the Contra code for 99 lives only for 89 rides instead. This guy hooked tests, showed up to events visibly hungover, had the worst attitude I've ever seen, went home to the desert for 2 MONTHS in the middle of UPT for his arranged marriage, and supposedly rolled a T-38 in the traffic pattern. Apparently being an Arab prince has its perks.

[Chida]

There's no use trying to make a washout "profile". In my class alone we had washouts and DORs in various phases from various sources. We had some guys get retained even though they hooked every check ride (due to good attitude).

3 USAFA DOR (T-37)

2 ROTC DOR (T-37)

2 previous AFSC (ABM/NAV) washout (one from T-37, one from IFF)

3 ROTC washout (2 T-37, 1 T-1)

1 USAFA washout (T-37)

1 Guard washout (T-37)

No football players that I know of.

[escapism]

I'm a washout meeting the board in June so perhaps I can shed light on the situation.

With regards to the legality of making us pay back tuition if we are not retained: unfortunately AFI 36-3207 paragraph 3.13 is pretty clear about it. We were also briefed and required to sign statements saying whether we wanted to be retained and if we weren't we were subject to recoupment for educational benefits. The only way to not pay is to get the amount waived by the SecAF/AFPC. And hire a good lawyer to argue why you shouldn't pay.

If you DOR, you are most likely done. I met a couple of LTs who DOR'd before going to IFS. This did not impress someone in their chain of command and at least one went to the board with a recommendation to not be reclassified. And they were separated with less than a year on active duty. They were academy grads and now must pay back $145,000. Someone told them they could set it up as a 30 year plan. The amount you pay back is proportionate to the amount of time left on your initial ADSC (so if you serve 1/5 years you pay back 4/5 of what the Air Force spent to educate you). Not wanting to serve a 10/6 year commitment (because I've known CSO guys to DOR too) is not a good enough reason anymore, if it ever was. I don't know if going to IFS and discovering you hate flying is even a good enough reason anymore.

Washouts have usually been reclassed this past year, although the post that revived this thread shows this is not 100%. I was told by leadership 99% will be reclassed but I was also told by the board recorder they don't keep stats on the board results so i don't know the true number who get reclassed. I don't know what happens to academic washouts. I do know that most people got what they wanted from the last board two weeks ago. The stuff that came up were fields like intel, space, missiles, CE, physicist, acquisitions, and a bunch of special tactics jobs. OSI is a special boarded process that you apply for, and someone got this a few months back. You can also go to another rated career field provided you are eligible (did not wash for air sickness, had high enough grades etc.) and you receive a recommendation from your commander.

The process applies to anyone who doesn't complete training for any reason. I think an ALO guy met the last board, and was probably retained.

[Cell Dweller]

The bottom line in all this is what goes on the 475 that the training unit does to document the attrite/DOR, and what the attrite/DOR has on his/her record that the USAF may deem valuable. If a new 2Lt quits in academics, and the 475 only says that, then all that is left for the USAF is maybe their academic degree. I do not know which office makes the decision, but they sure do not have a ton of info to use in the decision.

Also note that there is guidance that allows UPT attrites (not DORs) to stay in the rated community by applying for CSO or ABM training durring the reclassification process. This opportunity is not available to flight physical dq's (note that airsickness dq's are still eligible), DORs, or CSO/ABM washouts.

There is no evidence that flight school disqual's are at a disadvantage during retention/promotion boards due to it being on their record. The only disadvantage is the lack of time spent on-the-job. I know of one guy who DOR'd late from JSUNT, re-classified as an engineer, and met a RIF board less than a year later. His unit rushed to get an OPR in his record, but with only that and a 475, the RIF board had little to go on, and gave him the axe.

[whodat]

It also depends on what board you are meeting. Typically there are only 4 reclass boards a year, one every quarter. If you are hitting it at the end of the fiscal year and there are fewer AFSC's to fill (which is typically the case) and a bunch of dudes trying to reclass then it is bad timing and luck and there will be a substantially larger group getting the cut. I remember a board in 2011 that was at the end of the fiscal year and a lot of guys did not get reclassed even though they had legitment reasons for washing out.

[HuggyU2]

Good info, escapism. Thanks.

3 ROTC washout (2 T-37, 1 T-1)

How often do pilots washout from T-1s? Pretty rare, I'd assume?

[Kilgore Trout]

How often do pilots washout from T-1s? Pretty rare, I'd assume?

It's not as common as it should be. It's rare for students to wash out from T-38s or T-1s.

Oftentimes when students face an elimination check or fail an elimination check they are reinstated with the mantra "He's just gonna be a copilot anyway". Or "He probably should have been washed out in T-6s, but he's made it this far... Spin up a training plan and let's get this guy back on track."

And then for a while there was the "He's just going to a UAV anyway, there will be people there to keep an eye on him..."