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Commanders are dropping like flies this year

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26 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

Many years back (i.e. the good 'ol days) during Friday night fighter pilot bar Olympics, a dude trying to be funny came behind my wife and was inappropriate. Being the confident woman she is, she turned and delivered a nicely executed elbow to the face knocking the dude to the ground and leaving an impressive black eye as a reminder not to mess with her.  No attorneys were required. 

That's awesome -- no sarcasm.  I'm not a fan of the instant victim.

However, was the it the OG/CC?  If so...same rules would have applied w/ no repercussions to you?

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8 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

That's awesome -- no sarcasm.  I'm not a fan of the instant victim.

However, was the it the OG/CC?  If so...same rules would have applied w/ no repercussions to you?

Yes. There’s no rank in the debrief. There’s no rank in the bar. 

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9 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

Many years back (i.e. the good 'ol days) during Friday night fighter pilot bar Olympics, a dude trying to be funny came behind my wife and was inappropriate.

Jeeze, what else did he do that was inappropriate other than cumming behind your wife?

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11 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Yes. There’s no rank in the debrief. There’s no rank in the bar. 

Maybe I'm just jaded on here and from my experience on the non-flyer side. 

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13 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Yes. There’s no rank in the debrief. There’s no rank in the bar. 

There’s always rank, especially for an O-6+. We can pretend there isn’t all we want, but this is the military and we all know that’s BS. But it sounds like the Viper guys roll around in bed naked together, so maybe they don’t have rank over there. 

Edited by Hawg15
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43 minutes ago, Hawg15 said:

There’s always rank, especially for an O-6+. We can pretend there isn’t all we want, but this is the military and we all know that’s BS. But it sounds like the Viper guys roll around in bed naked together, so maybe they don’t have rank over there. 

I don’t doubt that things suck now ... but it didn’t used to suck (as much). I’ve seen and participated an many wonderful bar shenanigans. Sometimes the bosses stuck around and did shots off the strippers. Sometimes there was punchy-face. Sometimes they left early for plausible deniability. Sometimes the shenanigans were at their houses. But there were always shenanigans. 

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On 1/21/2020 at 8:14 AM, nsplayr said:

Jeeze, what else did he do that was inappropriate other than cumming behind your wife?

image.thumb.png.32c1804c103e85d355960229fa623592.png

Well, I think I set myself up for that one.  Important safety tip:  Never edit while sleep deprived.

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After the “OSI” / you can get crucified for lies discussion in here, check out the WTF in sq bar. Real interesting things could come from that suicide of OSI prosecuted him falsely as is being alluded to.


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They found drugs in his house.  Seems pretty open and shut to me.

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Having seen enough of OSI’s shenanigans in my time, my biggest fear is ever being in their gunsights. I’ve had the pleasure of working with them as a DO and also watching the aftermath through a court-martial. Good God.


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3 hours ago, pawnman said:

They found drugs in his house.  Seems pretty open and shut to me.

Are you sure you don't work for OSI? 

Head over to the WTF thread for plot thickening posts.  Which brings me to my next point...watch putting your dick in crazy!

 

2 hours ago, Duck said:

Having seen enough of OSI’s shenanigans in my time, my biggest fear is ever being in their gunsights. I’ve had the pleasure of working with them as a DO and also watching the aftermath through a court-martial. Good God.

Same.  They won't let little things like facts get in the way of their predetermined outcome. 

Edited by SocialD
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11 hours ago, pawnman said:

They found drugs in his house.  Seems pretty open and shut to me.

That belonged to his stripper wife. The same wife who got off her bipolar meds and then claimed he beat her. However, the times she claimed he beat her, he was at work, which was testified to by members in his squadron.

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10 hours ago, Duck said:

Having seen enough of OSI’s shenanigans in my time, my biggest fear is ever being in their gunsights. I’ve had the pleasure of working with them as a DO and also watching the aftermath through a court-martial. Good God.


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The same clown organization that ”forgot” to annotate an Airman’s court martial conviction for domestic violence in the FBI NCIC database. Which allowed him to pass a background check, purchase guns, and subsequently shoot up his former in-laws church in Texas. 

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The same clown organization that ”forgot” to annotate an Airman’s court martial conviction for domestic violence in the FBI NCIC database. Which allowed him to pass a background check, purchase guns, and subsequently shoot up his former in-laws church in Texas. 

 

I was never more ashamed of being a member of the Air Force than the day I heard that news.

 

As for Flash’s case, I’m wondering what was done to help him while all of this craziness was going on with his wife. He was at Creech for an extremely long time, maybe PCS orders and some one-on-one counseling about the benefits of leaving said stripper behind in Vegas could have helped. The best thing to do for all involved would be to learn from it and better heed the warning signs in the future. It’s just plain sad.

 

 

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On 1/24/2020 at 8:44 AM, di1630 said:


Seems plausible that they weren’t his.


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Doesn't matter in the civilian world.  Don't know why it would to the Air Force.  Police will take Grandma's house in a heartbeat if her teenage grandson is dealing drugs out of her house.

Where is the line?  Do we just believe every young airman who claims the drugs belong to a friend?

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9 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Do we just believe every young airman who claims the drugs belong to a friend?

Maybe we should assume they're innocent until there is enough evidence to prove they're guilty? You know, do our due diligence to gather all the facts before making decisions?

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There are some significantly different jury rules that apply to military members. Only 2/3 majority is required (unless it’s for a death sentence), and it’s extremely unlikely that you’ll have a jury of peers on a base where you know all of your peers personally.

Civilian defendants have a much better chance than military ones.

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4 hours ago, pawnman said:

Doesn't matter in the civilian world.  Don't know why it would to the Air Force.  Police will take Grandma's house in a heartbeat if her teenage grandson is dealing drugs out of her house.

Where is the line?  Do we just believe every young airman who claims the drugs belong to a friend?

The law might not leave room for grandma’s house, but the enforcement certainly does. There’s always room there... unless you live and work in a military service so addicted to rules that oftentimes humans don’t matter.  Add a few overeager 22 year olds with “special” investigative mandates (that they’d receive only after decades of law enforcement experience and/or law school anywhere else) to the mix and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. Then! Conviction beyond reasonable doubt (but only most people’s doubt... some don’t count), and you get the military justice system.
 

All dressed up with nowhere to go until the next big war and occupation. 

And yes, we believe them until we convict them under the best system available. Or better yet help them without convicting them where possible. Old Airmen too. 

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1 hour ago, jice said:

The law might not leave room for grandma’s house, but the enforcement certainly does. There’s always room there... unless you live and work in a military service so addicted to rules that oftentimes humans don’t matter.  Add a few overeager 22 year olds with “special” investigative mandates (that they’d receive only after decades of law enforcement experience and/or law school anywhere else) to the mix and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. Then! Conviction beyond reasonable doubt (but only most people’s doubt... some don’t count), and you get the military justice system.
 

All dressed up with nowhere to go until the next big war and occupation. 

And yes, we believe them until we convict them under the best system available. Or better yet help them without convicting them where possible. Old Airmen too. 

Look, I'm sympathetic to the guy's plight.  But there were drugs, in a house he owned, and even if he wasn't dealing, he let the person who owned the drugs stay in the house, and bring the drugs in.

It sucks that he decided suicide was the way out.  It sucks that his girl was a crazy psycho.  But this  whole case shows a real lack of decision making ability on his part.  I wasn't part of the jury, none of us were, so none of us has all the info.  However, if I were sitting in the jury for a court-martial where they found drugs in the home of an active duty member, especially one making life-and-death decisions like weapons employment...I'd vote for conviction in a heartbeat.  

I really don't see how this would have gone any other way once they found drugs in a house that he owned and was living in.  Anything after that would just sound like a guilty person concocting a story to avoid punishment.

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10 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:

 

I was never more ashamed of being a member of the Air Force than the day I heard that news.

 

As for Flash’s case, I’m wondering what was done to help him while all of this craziness was going on with his wife. He was at Creech for an extremely long time, maybe PCS orders and some one-on-one counseling about the benefits of leaving said stripper behind in Vegas could have helped. The best thing to do for all involved would be to learn from it and better heed the warning signs in the future. It’s just plain sad.

 

 

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I am honestly amazed to this day, that SECAF/CSAF weren't asked for their resignations on that awful day.

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11 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Look, I'm sympathetic to the guy's plight.  But there were drugs, in a house he owned, and even if he wasn't dealing, he let the person who owned the drugs stay in the house, and bring the drugs in.

It sucks that he decided suicide was the way out.  It sucks that his girl was a crazy psycho.  But this  whole case shows a real lack of decision making ability on his part.  I wasn't part of the jury, none of us were, so none of us has all the info.  However, if I were sitting in the jury for a court-martial where they found drugs in the home of an active duty member, especially one making life-and-death decisions like weapons employment...I'd vote for conviction in a heartbeat.  

I really don't see how this would have gone any other way once they found drugs in a house that he owned and was living in.  Anything after that would just sound like a guilty person concocting a story to avoid punishment.

What is he guilty of? You say you'd convict, on what charges?

Edited by Kenny Powers

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16 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

What is he guilty of? You say you'd convict, on what charges?

I don't know if you're aware of this...but having illegal drugs in your house means legally, you're in possession of illegal drugs.  Even if you aren't the one who bought them.

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7 hours ago, pawnman said:

Doesn't matter in the civilian world.  Don't know why it would to the Air Force.  Police will take Grandma's house in a heartbeat if her teenage grandson is dealing drugs out of her house.

Where is the line?  Do we just believe every young airman who claims the drugs belong to a friend?

The civilian world also is tried by 12 jurors and they need a unanimous verdict, unless a bench trial. Not some panel that needs 3/4 of a vote for a guilty verdict and can get carved down to four to eight members, depending on the type of court martial. Oh yeah, the jurors are random, not hand picked as ”most qualified” by the Convening Authority initiating the court martial.
 

And a juror doesn’t give a shit what the mayor, governor, or president thinks about a verdict. However, panel member may care what a Convening Authority thinks about a verdict. Just like a Convening Authority does care what a member of Congress thinks about a verdict, since it could potential cost them their career. 
 

The line to be drawn is a juror being impartial and not taking a cookie cutter approach to determining guilt or not.

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21 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I don't know if you're aware of this...but having illegal drugs in your house means legally, you're in possession of illegal drugs.  Even if you aren't the one who bought them.

I'm not saying he's completely innocent. You're the one that has this whole thing figured out already, I'm just wondering what you're convicting him of.

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