Academy informant program

[lazlo]

So let's do it the most cost effective way...I'm all about value. If the Academy is more cost effective vs ROTC vs OTS, then I'm all for it.

How can it be? If OTS turns out the same product in what used to be 13 weeks, now around 9, I just don't see any argument other than all the Generals sitting around their Carona meetings saying "this is just the way it's always been..."

[El-Fist]

But this whole informant thing is way different than that and I think you believed too many things Eric said in the article.

1.) Please enlighten us on this "informant thing" since you seem to have some insight. I think the fact that there IS an "informant thing" happening at all is pretty shitty.

2.) I didn't believe much of anything this guy said. As my first post said on page 1, a rat is a rat, no better than the jail house snitch. This dude has little or no credibility, but you have to wonder... Is this guy pulling all of these accusations out of left field, or is OSI really using this tactic and suggesting to guys who may be in some shit to keep their Commanders out of the loop? That's what I have a problem with.

3.) I didn't mean to hurt your feelers by "judging who you are as a person." (Seriously?) I just get so angry when I'm huffing bath salts and read posts like this...

Cheers

[Fuzz]

How can it be? If OTS turns out the same product in what used to be 13 weeks, now around 9, I just don't see any argument other than all the Generals sitting around their Carona meetings saying "this is just the way it's always been..."

Gotta keep the fraternity alive.

[Rokke]

I'm just gonna ignore the part where you judged who I am as a person and just agree with you on every level about being a wingman. Totally agree that we should help our bros out on the lowest level to keep issues from being bigger than they need to be. But this whole informant thing is way different than that and I think you believed too many things Eric said in the article. Nobody ran to OSI, it wasn't a spy movie, he didn't tail anyone, he wasn't directed to do shit by OSI, it was suggested. He didn't know his legal rights as an informant and that's how he got in too deep. The OSI has no clue about the cadet rules and BS, Eric did. That's how he got kicked out.

We don't have dudes running around here trying to snitch on each other for honor things and keeping their chain of command in the dark about most of it.If we did I would've been outta here the first month and on my way back to Florida to be a Nole. The whole article is the Eric saw it, and his perspective is jacked up. Keep in mind, he was a month away from graduation with ~450 demerits when he got the boot (200 is disenrollment). Eric did dumb shit and tried to blame it on being an OSI informant. Definitely not the case.

You just have to love the internet. Anonymous possible cadet guy schools anonymous internet tough guy leadership expert regarding a media story that might possibly be 50% of the story but probably doesn't even hit that level of accuracy.

Hopefully, whatever powers that be at USAFA will get around to figuring out what they can and can't release about this issue, and people who are actually impacted by this story can have a factually based discussion on what is really going on there. Until then, the debates I am reading are about as productive as debating whether or not we should free the aliens incarcerated at Area 51.

[El-Fist]

You just have to love the internet. Anonymous possible cadet guy schools anonymous internet tough guy leadership expert regarding a media story that might possibly be 50% of the story but probably doesn't even hit that level of accuracy.

Welcome.

[G-Lock]

Derailed on the zoo-bashing:

I've read parts of this forum for a long time, this one gets me though. Out of curiosity, what breeds such a hatred of a place that has little more effect on you than the tax dollars you've sprinkled on the budgetary mess of defense spending (assuming "we all have douche-bags/are the same" is true)?

If the academies lived up to their original steed, put 10% focus on NCAA athletics, and graduated more subjectively / objectively qualified individuals (examples:Phase XX UFT complete/Tech School complete, SERE/Water Survival complete, PME complete) for the money spent, would you be happy? Or would non-grads cry foul due to preferential ring-knocker treatment? Is the whole concept a wash?

The Academy does a LOT of things wrong, but then so does the AF as a whole. That whole article was disappointing, I'd say more-so on the part of the big AF than USAFA itself for those reasons being discussed above. I'm guessing ROTC detachments all have their individual problems as well, but not on the same scale. While I said IHTFP countless times and had countless miserable hours there, I wouldn't change the fact I was there. A lot of good things that happen at the zoo, too.

Edited December 4, 2013 by G-Lock

[nsplayr]

I'm guessing ROTC detachments all have their individual problems as well, but not on the same scale.

Agreed...my detachment was very high on the list of institutional disfunction but hey, it only affected 12 people per year so NBD. We did manage to operate without narcs though so we had that going for us!

Edited December 4, 2013 by nsplayr

[joe1234]

Derailed on the zoo-bashing:

I've read parts of this forum for a long time, this one gets me though. Out of curiosity, what breeds such a hatred of a place that has little more effect on you than the tax dollars you've sprinkled on the budgetary mess of defense spending (assuming "we all have douche-bags/are the same" is true)?

I think my opposition comes from the fact that we piss away millions of dollars to keep open an academy that has a vague, unknown, unmeasurable benefit with no known statistical significance as opposed to relatively dirt cheap ROTC and OTS options. Yet we axe things like the KC-10, the A-10, or thousands of airmen, NCO's and officers that have an actual, measurable impact on national security.

So unless someone here can make the case that whatever the hell advantage over ROTC/OTS that the academy gives us as a nation is more important than what real actual jets or real people that are doing their jobs right now are doing, I will continue to believe that the only reason that place exists is based off of 100% total useless nostalgic bullshit. And the lobbying power of Colorado politicians.

[Eggz]

I think my opposition comes from the fact that we piss away millions of dollars to keep open an academy that has a vague, unknown, unmeasurable benefit with no known statistical significance as opposed to relatively dirt cheap ROTC and OTS options. Yet we axe things like the KC-10, the A-10, or thousands of airmen, NCO's and officers that have an actual, measurable impact on national security.

So unless someone here can make the case that whatever the hell advantage over ROTC/OTS that the academy gives us as a nation is more important than what real actual jets or real people that are doing their jobs right now are doing, I will continue to believe that the only reason that place exists is based off of 100% total useless nostalgic bullshit. And the lobbying power of Colorado politicians.

O man, harsh words! Sounds like someone is bitter about not being accepted into the Academy... j/k

Anyways, you asked for some evidence. Here you go: Check out http://www.rhodesscholar.org/winners/college-and-university-winners

Here are the cliff notes:

Air Force Academy: 37

Uni of Wisconsin: 30

ASU: 5

FSU: 5

ERAU: 0

TUI: 0

However, we're no West Point (89) or Annapolis (46) but 37 is not so bad for a school with only 4,000 students and coming up on our 56th graduating class.

Besides that, I know many on BO are looking for the airlines. Check out who the President of US Air is... yup, Academy grad and not that old.

http://www.usairways.com/en-US/aboutus/pressroom/executivebios.html

[Gravedigger]

From your Rhodes Scholar link:

We hesitate to publish this due to the ease in which these statistics are misused and misinterpreted, but we do so as lists like this are now widely available but frequently inaccurate.

Please keep in mind though that the Rhodes Scholarship competition has never been a national one, so state and institutional comparisons are not particularly relevant or meaningful.

I do believe USAFA is a huge waste of money, but that doesn't make all of the people there suck by association.

[mcbush]

The Academy's response: http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.gazette/USAFA%20PA%20re%20Mr%20Eric%20Thomas.pdf

Edit to add: "The program uses people who confidentially provide vital information about criminal activities that would not otherwise be available. AFOSI uses that information to initiate or resolve criminal investigations. This is an Air Force-wide program and is not something unique at the Air Force’s Academy."

Edited December 4, 2013 by skytaco

[Fast_N_Low135]

So what exactly is your argument? We should keep the academies because the produce a lot of Rhodes scholars? Would those students not be able to achieve that at some other university? Plus, we should keep the academies so the CEO of some PRIVATE company can hire ring knockers? Yep, sounds like a valid reason to keep them around. So tell me again how the service academies increase our warfighter capability?

[Fuzz]

The Academy's response: http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.gazette/USAFA%20PA%20re%20Mr%20Eric%20Thomas.pdf

Edit to add: "The program uses people who confidentially provide vital information about criminal activities that would not otherwise be available. AFOSI uses that information to initiate or resolve criminal investigations. This is an Air Force-wide program and is not something unique at the Air Force’s Academy."

So they decided to dis-enroll him but it took them 2 years to officially kick him out? Something isn't adding up. I also like the specific part about being told he wasn't allowed to break academy rules, because I was wholly expecting the Air Force Academy to say anything else, or OSI to admit they would direct an informant to do so either.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Fuzz

[Day Man]

So they decided to dis-enroll him but it took them 2 years to officially kick him out? Something isn't adding up. I also like the specific part about being told he wasn't allowed to break academy rules, because I was wholly expecting the Air Force Academy to say anything else, or OSI to admit they would direct an informant to do so either.

Are you surprised? These are the same people that blamed the -22 pilot for going hypoxic and crashing (later disputed by an IG report).

[Vetter]

So what exactly is your argument? We should keep the academies because the produce a lot of Rhodes scholars? Would those students not be able to achieve that at some other university? Plus, we should keep the academies so the CEO of some PRIVATE company can hire ring knockers? Yep, sounds like a valid reason to keep them around. So tell me again how the service academies increase our warfighter capability?

Stop being a retard. The number of Rhodes Scholars is an indication of the quality of the education. One indication. I hated the fucking place, but I received an excellent education there.

[BFM this]

Nope, he's not really being a retard: pointing out faulty logic.

I have no logical connection to make, but I would speculate that you could have gotten an excellent education an one of any of a thousand other universities in this country, but at a fraction of the unit cost.

Likewise, I agree with FNL135, that those Rhodes Scholars could have excelled elsewhere as well. Again, at a fraction of the cost.

(Just about he logical fallacy. I actually don't harbor Service Academy hate. Keep 'em. Ditch 'em. Meh: barely care.)

[Vetter]

I see where you are coming from, but the fallacy goes both ways. The same thing can be said about about pilot training. There are other avenues of training a pilot that are much cheaper than pilot than UPT. But the Air Force has control over the product. While there are outliers, the Air Force has much more control over the Academy product than an ROTC product. I'm not saying it's better or not, but they have more control and they like that.

And there aren't thousands of colleges out there academically as good as the Academy. Still burn it down.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Vetter

[check6]

I see where you are coming from, but the fallacy goes both ways. The same thing can be said about about pilot training. There are other avenues of training a pilot that are much cheaper than pilot than UPT. But the Air Force has control over the product. While there are outliers, the Air Force has much more control over the Academy product than an ROTC product. I'm not saying it's better or not, but they have more control and they like that.

And there aren't thousands of colleges out there academically as good as the Academy. Still burn it down.

Not quite. The AF does not get pilots from any other source than UPT. The only way we make a pilot is UPT, there is no other functioning cheaper method that produces them at the end of the year.

Not the case for AF officers. AFA/ROTC/OCS all produce a 2Lt.

Personally I think we should keep the academy but I think we might be missing the mark with these arguments. Agreed there are not thousands of colleges as good as the Academy, probably only hundreds.

Edited December 5, 2013 by check6

[SurelySerious]

Paying tuition for thousands of college kids and running dets across the country also costs too much money. If you're arguing money, then your argument better be OTS only.

[Eggz]

Wasn’t expecting such a harsh response from a tongue and cheek reply to a previous post. It appears the haters are going to hate, and nothing will change your opinion… which is fine. AND I will freely admit, there have been ROTC Rhode Scholars (most from the Ivy Leagues).

I will add (I think many of us agree) USAFA is an excellent academic institution. It consistently ranks in the top 15 in the country. The idea that there are hundreds just like it is absurd. One of the best aspects of the Academy is you can get an excellent education, play Division I sports, and for the most part (if medically qualified) get handed a ticket to UPT upon graduation. I argue this diversity of people flowing into the pilot ranks is the benefit that many are asking for with regard to pilot production.

It is true though, the Air Force could care less where a pilot goes for the degree. In my UPT class, I had a classmate (Reservist) who was prior enlisted, ended up getting a BS degree from Touro. Did OTS and now is an Air Force pilot. I guess we could go this route instead.

I want to address what some people say about the non-pilots at USAFA. To be honest, I’m not sure why people went through that bullshit for a degree they could have gotten at a civilian university. However, the Air Force was lucky to get people such as the president of US Air and other graduates (some who make seven figures and look at airline pay as lunch money) for the five years they served. The facts are there just are not enough slots at the ROTC dets at the top 14 schools to accommodate all these guys/gals if the Air Force Academy did not exist. There are some people who are attracted to a high quality education and the military gets tremendous value out of their human capital.

[Vetter]

Not quite. The AF does not get pilots from any other source than UPT. The only way we make a pilot is UPT, there is no other functioning cheaper method that produces them at the end of the year.

That doesn't mean it couldn't be easily done. Put out a contract. Someone will figure out how to produce a pilot for less money than the Air Force does. It may not be a better pilot, but who really cares right. Piloting ability matters no more.

[Gravedigger]

I will add (I think many of us agree) USAFA is an excellent academic institution. It consistently ranks in the top 15 in the country. The idea that there are hundreds just like it is absurd.

Dude, the problem is you keep posting about how great the Academy is compared to other schools. It's a good school, but it is nowhere near top 20. It is only ranked amongst schools without graduate degree programs...not really a huge pool there. Again, I've got no problem with Academy grads, however, a lot of the ones I have thought were douchebags seemed to think they graduated from MIT because they took a beginner's astro class as a management major.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Edited December 5, 2013 by Gravedigger

[HU&W]

They're right here. Number 25 on the list of National Liberal Arts Colleges. Defined as:

Among the National Liberal Arts Colleges are schools like Pomona College and Bowdoin College, which emphasize undergraduate education and award at least half of their degrees in the liberal arts fields of study.

[hispeed7721]

They're right here. Number 25 on the list of National Liberal Arts Colleges. Defined as:

How can that be? Every major at the AFA is a bachelor of science! Doesn't that mean they are all super hard technical degrees of the highest caliber?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dupe]

My issue with the place is cost vs value. Getting a USAFA LT is about 6 times more expensive than a ROTC grad. Do we seriously believe USAFA grads are better officers/pilots/queep-masters by a factor of six? If not, then shut the place down.