Promotion and PRF Information

[Duck]

Ha ha. That doesn't match the slide I saw 8 years ago saying AMC WIC was being promoted at the same rate as Phoenix Reach programs.

Again, I know of guys essentially non-vol'd to WIC as heavy guys

[ThreeHoler]

AMC still doesn't know how to utilize WIC grads. Especially in the KC-10 where we stupidly stiff-armed the creation of a WIC...and now our only option for WOs is a -135 pilot who may or may not be able to effectively teach in the -10 (the same would apply the other way if there was a KC-10 WIC and no KC-135 WIC).

[Chuck17]

2 hours ago, TnkrToad said:

Slides 9 & 10 on the AMC promo brief supports your assertion, particularly for WIC grads:

- IPZ O-5 promo rate for WIC grads:

-- AMC: 33% (2/6) . . . I can't for the life of me figure out how/why WIC grads fared so poorly

-- Overall AF: 72.7% (16/22) . . . The overall AF pilot promo rate was 73.4%; MAF WIC grads actually got promoted at a marginally lower rate that pilots across the entire AF

- BPZ O-5 promo rate:

-- Exactly Zero WIC, Phoenix Reach & Phoenix Mobility grads were selected BPZ in AMC

The funniest part is the banner across the bottom of the slide that touts, "Development Programs are Achieving Desired Outcome." I guess the desired outcome is for everyone but MAF experts to lead AMC/the AF.

TT

 

Don't overthink it. It makes no difference what Phoenix program you're in, if you can't pass your PT test, you will not be promoted. Patch or no patch.

AMC gets it, and it's getting better. The CCs Aide and Exec are both patches - but they didn't get there because of the patch. It's just one step, of many possible and many required...

Chuck

[Azimuth]

58 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

AMC still doesn't know how to utilize WIC grads. Especially in the KC-10 where we stupidly stiff-armed the creation of a WIC...and now our only option for WOs is a -135 pilot who may or may not be able to effectively teach in the -10 (the same would apply the other way if there was a KC-10 WIC and no KC-135 WIC).

How would they not be able to effectively teach in the -10? I know two -135 WO's, who taught in the -135 FTU, who have done fine in the -10.

[Champ Kind]

Slides 9 & 10 on the AMC promo brief supports your assertion, particularly for WIC grads:

- IPZ O-5 promo rate for WIC grads:

-- AMC: 33% (2/6) . . . I can't for the life of me figure out how/why WIC grads fared so poorly

-- Overall AF: 72.7% (16/22) . . . The overall AF pilot promo rate was 73.4%; MAF WIC grads actually got promoted at a marginally lower rate that pilots across the entire AF

- BPZ O-5 promo rate:

-- Exactly Zero WIC, Phoenix Reach & Phoenix Mobility grads were selected BPZ in AMC

The funniest part is the banner across the bottom of the slide that touts, "Development Programs are Achieving Desired Outcome." I guess the desired outcome is for everyone but MAF experts to lead AMC/the AF.

TT

 

Don't overthink it. It makes no difference what Phoenix program you're in, if you can't pass your PT test, you will not be promoted. Patch or no patch.

AMC gets it, and it's getting better. The CCs Aide and Exec are both patches - but they didn't get there because of the patch. It's just one step, of many possible and many required...

Chuck

How is that Everhart's aide and exec being patches is a good thing? Why aren't they out building, teaching, and leading.

CAF dudes, pipe in. What do you guys do with your patches from about 1-2 years TIG to O-4 and beyond.

[Chuck17]

Don't know how better to explain it brother. One is a graduated sq/cc, the other will be one soon enough. Maybe they've been there, done that re: the post-WIC tour... And now the next one they're going to work on/with is the AMC/CC...? You only owe so much commitment after getting that patch - it's not endentured servitude for life...

I don't think it's a bad thing. I can think of no other programs - except for maybe SAASS - for which the USAF actively manages, places and critiques where the graduates end up working. 

If a command "doesn't know what to do with WIC grads" the thinking should be that getting a few in the front office would help them figure it out.... Which is why my original comment was that AMC gets it.

Chuck

[TnkrToad]

On April 2, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Chuck17 said:

Pile on, and gonna play devils advocate because I'm sitting in cue for my O-5 board results, and I've just had this conversation with two flag officers.

 

2 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Don't overthink it. It makes no difference what Phoenix program you're in, if you can't pass your PT test, you will not be promoted. Patch or no patch.

Chuck

31 minutes ago, Chuck17 said:

I don't think it's a bad thing. I can think of no other programs - except for maybe SAASS - for which the USAF actively manages, places and critiques where the graduates end up working. 

If a command "doesn't know what to do with WIC grads" the thinking should be that getting a few in the front office would help them figure it out.... Which is why my original comment was that AMC gets it.

Perhaps it's a generational thing--since you're still awaiting your O-5 results, you're substantially younger than I, but I have seen little evidence of AMC patches being well-managed. Maybe there's a difference between the C-17 and other MAF communities. The C-17 WIC is younger than the C-130 and KC-135 WICs; perhaps this indicates your community is doing something more right than the others, I don't know. 

Not knocking on the AMC WO functionals, but rather my impression is that, between local commanders who don't have a clue how to best utilize their skill sets, sending patches to assignments that screw guys' careers and other leadership/managerial malpractice, I've seen multiple instances of WOs' careers getting needlessly frittered away. Your mileage has clearly varied from mine--and, it would seem, that of the MAF WOs who met this last board.

I'm really curious to get your insight on the WO O-5 promo rate in AMC. Only 2 out of 6 were promoted--are you telling me that the other 4 couldn't pass a PT test? Likewise, MAF patches fared no better than pilots as a whole. I don't know how to motivate folks to go through that much pain, when stats indicate that doing so won't help one's career one bit.

TT

 

[Champ Kind]

Guys go to WIC to help their careers?

[TnkrToad]

2 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

Guys go to WIC to help their careers?

Not necessarily; I'd hope they'd go there to be better at their jobs. I don't figure they want to endure 6 months of arse pain to retire as O-4s, though. 

[Mark1]

12 hours ago, TnkrToad said:

- IPZ O-5 promo rate for WIC grads:

-- AMC: 33% (2/6) . . . I can't for the life of me figure out how/why WIC grads fared so poorly

-- Overall AF: 72.7% (16/22) . . . The overall AF pilot promo rate was 73.4%; MAF WIC grads actually got promoted at a marginally lower rate that pilots across the entire AF...

 

I see you've attended the official AF course on statistics...where last year one person  in an organization of 300,000 had a fatal motorcycle accident and this year there have been three.  That's a 300% increase in carelessness leading to death and a sure sign of complacency!  Everybody panic.  

Or it may be completely meaningless given the sample size.  Either one.

 

 

[pawnman]

12 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

How is that Everhart's aide and exec being patches is a good thing? Why aren't they out building, teaching, and leading.

CAF dudes, pipe in. What do you guys do with your patches from about 1-2 years TIG to O-4 and beyond.

Sadly, exec is a common path.

[PlanePhlyer]

My last base had an O-4 patch, OG Exec. Instead of leading tactics talks, he was slinging OPRs. Sad...

[brabus]

I have never personally seen an 11F patch be an exec in the last 7 years; I'm sure there's an exception somewhere, but overall I don't think crap like that happens in the CAF for the most part.  Most dudes do two assignments as a patch (SQ/WG level, then OT/teach WIC/another CAF assignment for the most part) then they're off to school/staff or the guard/airlines...you can guess which one of those two categories a metric shit ton fall into.

[TnkrToad]

11 hours ago, Mark1 said:

I see you've attended the official AF course on statistics...where last year one person  in an organization of 300,000 had a fatal motorcycle accident and this year there have been three.  That's a 300% increase in carelessness leading to death and a sure sign of complacency!  Everybody panic.  

Or it may be completely meaningless given the sample size.  Either one.

Or perhaps I was primarily trying to highlight an anomaly and found the explanation that the AMC WOs who didn't get promoted to O-5 were disgusting fatbodies who couldn't pass a PT test to be unsatisfactory. Not panicking; just skeptical of the notion that AMC does a good job of developing/properly utilizing its patches. My insights are based on more than a one-year statistical snapshot. Rather, I worked with & for the initial cadre and graduates from the first KC-135 WIC class and many others afterward. This is from before they could call it a WIC and before they could carry a W-prefix, because AMC and the wider Air Force were so awesome when it came to managing mobility WOs. 

Clearly, I'm a graybeard, and I'd love to hear that AMC is doing well by its WOs. Looking at the AMC promo briefs for the last 5 O-5 boards (CY11-CY15), though, I tend to see a trend. In every single one of them, AMC WOs were promoted at a lower rate than the overall Air Force. 

I still can't reconcile Chuck's assertions with (1) the data points I've found--which cover more than just one year, and (2) my personal experience--which exceeds his. 

To head off a bunch of bickering over statistical significance, I will readily admit you win--a one-year snapshot and small sample size by itself should not be cause for alarm.

TT

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by TnkrToad
grammer

[Bode]

Anyone heard anything on the 08 YG PRFs for major being due in October? My exec is claiming it's not official but was passed from a buddy at AFPC.

I know that would be a large jump in dates from the 07 guys but I wouldn't be too shocked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Danger41]

2 hours ago, Lstcause257 said:

Anyone heard anything on the 08 YG PRFs for major being due in October? My exec is claiming it's not official but was passed from a buddy at AFPC.

I know that would be a large jump in dates from the 07 guys but I wouldn't be too shocked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That'd be a huge jump.  Why would they do that?

[PlanePhlyer]

2 hours ago, Lstcause257 said:

Anyone heard anything on the 08 YG PRFs for major being due in October? My exec is claiming it's not official but was passed from a buddy at AFPC.

I know that would be a large jump in dates from the 07 guys but I wouldn't be too shocked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would be surprised. Maybe due within the Sqdn in October. If it was due this year it would probably be in MyPers. 

[11F]

In my corner of the 11F world, going to WIC has absolutely zero to do with an individual's career and everything to do with selecting the right individual to lead a squadron's training program for that squadron to be thee most lethal squadron in the world. The 11F WIC is way too difficult to pick someone based on anything else...they'll washout.

The MAF has always struck me as career focused instead of job focused, but I guess when you spend a bunch of time droning from point A to point B for hours on end you run out of approach plates and 11-217 to cover and you end up talking about how to get promoted? All I know is that no one talks about this career stuff in the fighter squadrons I've been in for two reasons: 1) there are too many tactical things to learn to have time to talk about someone's career (this is often to a fault) and B) you will be ridiculed for talking about this career stuff in the fighter squadron common areas because of item #1 (again often times to the detriment of careers, but few care).

WIC grads around me do the typical FS WO job followed by either teaching at Nellis or Wing Weapons. After that, it's either off to IDE/staff, get offered a 365 and go guard/reserve, or get out altogether and do something completely unrelated. I have never seen any 11F patch in my community ever be an aide/Exec at any level unless they were a graduated sq/cc, and that's to be a 4-star's Exec (the right guy being groomed to be a GO). The guys in my community who are the aides/execs are the non-patch wearers, and they are often the ones who care more about their career moves than they would ever admit (somethings are the same in every community in the USAF).

[Skitzo]

Anyone heard anything on the 08 YG PRFs for major being due in October? My exec is claiming it's not official but was passed from a buddy at AFPC.

I know that would be a large jump in dates from the 07 guys but I wouldn't be too shocked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can we just enact SCODs for officers already? Can we just do this? One Closeout date for each YG period.

These shifting timings make it impossible to do the right things by people at the sqd level

Back to the drawing board to try and figure out how to get Flt/CC credit for '08 guys or to draw the line and tell the folks hey I made major without being a Flt/CC you might too.

[Bode]

Anyone heard anything on the 08 YG PRFs for major being due in October? My exec is claiming it's not official but was passed from a buddy at AFPC.

I know that would be a large jump in dates from the 07 guys but I wouldn't be too shocked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would be surprised. Maybe due within the Sqdn in October. If it was due this year it would probably be in MyPers. 

I will check MyPers tomorrow. See if there is anything.

[Duck]

According to pin on rates the '06 grads will be done pinning on by this December. If we keep pinning O-4s at the same rate, the '07 group will be done by September 2017, leaving the '08 grads starting to pin on in October 2017.

As dudes continue to punch, the O-4 boards will continue to move up. I can see stuff being due to your squadron in October, but even that seems a little early. Maybe board in March-April next year for '08?

[pawnman]

11 hours ago, 11F said:

In my corner of the 11F world, going to WIC has absolutely zero to do with an individual's career and everything to do with selecting the right individual to lead a squadron's training program for that squadron to be thee most lethal squadron in the world. The 11F WIC is way too difficult to pick someone based on anything else...they'll washout.

The MAF has always struck me as career focused instead of job focused, but I guess when you spend a bunch of time droning from point A to point B for hours on end you run out of approach plates and 11-217 to cover and you end up talking about how to get promoted? All I know is that no one talks about this career stuff in the fighter squadrons I've been in for two reasons: 1) there are too many tactical things to learn to have time to talk about someone's career (this is often to a fault) and B) you will be ridiculed for talking about this career stuff in the fighter squadron common areas because of item #1 (again often times to the detriment of careers, but few care).

WIC grads around me do the typical FS WO job followed by either teaching at Nellis or Wing Weapons. After that, it's either off to IDE/staff, get offered a 365 and go guard/reserve, or get out altogether and do something completely unrelated. I have never seen any 11F patch in my community ever be an aide/Exec at any level unless they were a graduated sq/cc, and that's to be a 4-star's Exec (the right guy being groomed to be a GO). The guys in my community who are the aides/execs are the non-patch wearers, and they are often the ones who care more about their career moves than they would ever admit (somethings are the same in every community in the USAF).

Which may be the reason the fighter community can't keep anyone in the cockpits.  300 pilots short this year?  

[Duck]

In my corner of the 11F world, going to WIC has absolutely zero to do with an individual's career and everything to do with selecting the right individual to lead a squadron's training program for that squadron to be thee most lethal squadron in the world. The 11F WIC is way too difficult to pick someone based on anything else...they'll washout.

The MAF has always struck me as career focused instead of job focused, but I guess when you spend a bunch of time droning from point A to point B for hours on end you run out of approach plates and 11-217 to cover and you end up talking about how to get promoted? All I know is that no one talks about this career stuff in the fighter squadrons I've been in for two reasons: 1) there are too many tactical things to learn to have time to talk about someone's career (this is often to a fault) and B) you will be ridiculed for talking about this career stuff in the fighter squadron common areas because of item #1 (again often times to the detriment of careers, but few care).

WIC grads around me do the typical FS WO job followed by either teaching at Nellis or Wing Weapons. After that, it's either off to IDE/staff, get offered a 365 and go guard/reserve, or get out altogether and do something completely unrelated. I have never seen any 11F patch in my community ever be an aide/Exec at any level unless they were a graduated sq/cc, and that's to be a 4-star's Exec (the right guy being groomed to be a GO). The guys in my community who are the aides/execs are the non-patch wearers, and they are often the ones who care more about their career moves than they would ever admit (somethings are the same in every community in the USAF).

Which may be the reason the fighter community can't keep anyone in the cockpits.  300 pilots short this year?  

That's a joke! They are vastly undercutting these numbers!!!

[ArcticGator]

So basically per the AMC brief, if you are to get promoted with a P to O-5 you need to have most of the following: PRF DP push, strat, CC push and SDE push along with consistent OPR strats and CC/DE pushes.

However, looking at the #s of people passed over it seems the things those people lacked the most were PRF strat, OPR strats, OPR CC pushes, and duties above wing. Those seemed to be the key, at least in AMC.

[08Dawg]

On 4/5/2016 at 2:30 AM, PlanePhlyer said:

My last base had an O-4 patch, OG Exec. Instead of leading tactics talks, he was slinging OPRs. Sad...

Same's true in the Buff world.  Many patches get maybe a year outside of WIC, then they get sucked up into various exec jobs.  Off the top of my cranium, right now there are guys less than two years out of WIC sitting in wing, NAF and MAJCOM level exec or aide jobs.